mrjjj
mrjjj
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September 11th, 2010 at 12:57:50 PM permalink
I forgot who it was that corrected me, sorry about that. My question....Lets say I want to express this (I'll make something up) The dealer will bust in 'X' number of hands. Some say dont use 'X'. Thats fine but then how should it be worded? Ken
MathExtremist
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September 11th, 2010 at 1:55:07 PM permalink
"Will" is improper. What you want to say is "there is an X% probability of the dealer having busted within N hands." Or, "with a 90% confidence, after N hands the actual results should be within +/- X% of the EV"

You can never say "the dealer will bust in X hands" if (a) the dealer does not always bust, and (b) each hand is independent. For any series of independent trials with a probability p < 1 of outcome A happening, and with probability 1-p of outcome B happening, there is a non-zero (but vanishing) probability of either A or B *never* happening. Therefore, you can never say that A or B *will* happen. As likely as it may be, it's never guaranteed. The only time it is guaranteed is when the event happens every time anyway.

None of the above applies to dependent events, like drawing cards from a deck without putting them back. If you have a single shuffled deck and you start picking cards from it and setting them aside, there is a 100% chance you will draw the ace of spades. However, if you put the drawn card back and reshuffle each time, there is a small chance you will *never* draw the ace of spades. These two scenarios are called "selection without replacement" and "selection with replacement", respectively, and probability theory can answer many questions about how these scenarios behave over time.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
mrjjj
mrjjj
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September 11th, 2010 at 2:43:19 PM permalink
Maybe I'm not asking right? According to the current stats (not future events) a dealer will bust ON AVERAGE once every ***** hands. How would I word that without knowing the stats? Ken
mkl654321
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September 11th, 2010 at 3:00:12 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

"Will" is improper. What you want to say is "there is an X% probability of the dealer having busted within N hands." Or, "with a 90% confidence, after N hands the actual results should be within +/- X% of the EV"

You can never say "the dealer will bust in X hands" if (a) the dealer does not always bust, and (b) each hand is independent. For any series of independent trials with a probability p < 1 of outcome A happening, and with probability 1-p of outcome B happening, there is a non-zero (but vanishing) probability of either A or B *never* happening. Therefore, you can never say that A or B *will* happen. As likely as it may be, it's never guaranteed. The only time it is guaranteed is when the event happens every time anyway.

None of the above applies to dependent events, like drawing cards from a deck without putting them back. If you have a single shuffled deck and you start picking cards from it and setting them aside, there is a 100% chance you will draw the ace of spades. However, if you put the drawn card back and reshuffle each time, there is a small chance you will *never* draw the ace of spades. These two scenarios are called "selection without replacement" and "selection with replacement", respectively, and probability theory can answer many questions about how these scenarios behave over time.



Mr. jjj doesn't understand these sorts of analyses---for one thing, he doesn't believe in mathematics.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mrjjj
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September 11th, 2010 at 3:33:21 PM permalink
I always have to repeat myself. lol At least I have the BALLS to post something that will get slammed. How many would do that? Not many. I dont HIDE by posting only SAFE comments. Ken
pacomartin
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September 11th, 2010 at 3:37:58 PM permalink
The expectation is that the dealer will bust 28% of the time.

Expectation is used in the mathematical sense.
MathExtremist
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September 11th, 2010 at 3:52:28 PM permalink
Quote: mrjjj

Maybe I'm not asking right? According to the current stats (not future events) a dealer will bust ON AVERAGE once every ***** hands. How would I word that without knowing the stats? Ken


The dealer busts roughly every 3.5 hands on average. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "word that without knowing the stats".

You can find detailed statistics for the dealer probabilities on the Wizard's blackjack appendix 2b page.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
mrjjj
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September 11th, 2010 at 4:01:22 PM permalink
Ok thanks. Lets say I did not know it is 3.5 but I do know, the dealers do bust (of course). How would I word that WITHOUT knowing its 3.5 Ken
pacomartin
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September 11th, 2010 at 4:05:13 PM permalink
I don't see anything wrong with saying "The dealer will bust in 'X' number of hands." What is the expected value of X?

The latter part of the question makes it clear that you are looking for a statistical answer.
MathExtremist
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September 11th, 2010 at 4:11:46 PM permalink
Quote: mrjjj

Ok thanks. Lets say I did not know it is 3.5 but I do know, the dealers do bust (of course). How would I word that WITHOUT knowing its 3.5 Ken


That's when you'd use a statement like "The dealers bust every X hands on average." X is used as an unknown constant.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
mrjjj
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September 11th, 2010 at 4:11:51 PM permalink
@pacomartin >> THANK YOU !!!!! I agree. If I KNEW, I would post the stat without stating 'X'. Ken
mrjjj
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September 11th, 2010 at 4:50:55 PM permalink
"X is used as an unknown constant" >>> lol, Ok, I agree. It was 'unknown' to me. Ken
weaselman
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September 12th, 2010 at 7:02:43 AM permalink
The term you are looking for is "expected". Replace "will" with it.
"The dealer is expected to hit every X hands".

This discussion reminds me a story about a physicist and a mathematician traveling across Scotland, and seeing a black sheep by the road. The physicist wrote in his diary "The sheep in Scotland are black.", and the mathematician wrote "there is at least one sheep in Scotland, that is black on at least one side".
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
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