Counting Questions

I have a serious card counting question. Wiz, when card counting as part
of the "Illustrious 18" it says to stay on 16 vs 10 if the true count is 0
or better. It says to stay on 16 vs 9 if true count is 5 or better. What
if either of these situations do occur but you have a pair of 8's? Do you
still stay or would you split?
Also, as the Illustrious 18 says to do you would hit with a 12 vs a 6 if
the true count is -1 or worse, hit with a 12 vs 5 if the true count is -2
or worse, hit with a 12 vs 4 if the true count is 0 or worse, stand with a
12 vs 3 if the count is 2 or better, stand with a 12 vs 2 if the count is 3
or better. So, what if in any of those situations you have a pair of 6's.
Do you split according to basic strategy or still play according to what
the Illustrious 18 says?
My last question is that according to the Illustrious 18 it says to double
with a 10 vs an ace if the count is 4 or better and to double with a 10 vs
10 if the count is 4 or better. What if in either of those situations you
have a soft 10 (ace/9)? Do you still double?

8's vs 9 or 10: Split

6's vs 2-6: Split

A9 vs A or 10: Stand



NOTE: There are other index plays (outside of Ill-18) for 8's vs 9 or 10 and 6's vs 2-6.

In shoe games surrender 8,8 vs 10 at +1 if it is offered.

Quote: RS

8's vs 9 or 10: Split

6's vs 2-6: Split

A9 vs A or 10: Stand



NOTE: There are other index plays (outside of Ill-18) for 8's vs 9 or 10 and 6's vs 2-6.

Ty. This helps. I'm somewhat new to card counting so I'm going to master the Ill-18 before I memorize even more info. That's why I'm trying to clear up these types of questions first. Why is 15 vs 10 one of the fab 4 surrenders when basic strategy says to surrender that all the time? Because basic strategy is to surrender 15 vs 10 and 16 vs 9-A, right?

Quote: 1BB

In shoe games surrender 8,8 vs 10 at +1 if it is offered.

Thx for the input. I'm assuming this is an Index play outside of the Ill-18?

Quote: makaveli66

Thx for the input. I'm assuming this is an Index play outside of the Ill-18?

More like outside the Fab4 surrenders. Everyone should learn the I18 and Fab4. Fab4 are the same as I18 but for surrendering, when it's an option.

To me, the I18 is all about maximizing your EV. They're the plays that will earn you more in the long run... Where as the Fab4 are the plays about minimizing loss. They're plays that will help you lose less in bad situations in the long run.

There is also an index number for standing on 8,8 vs X, when surrender is not available. I use +5 for this play. It is higher than the stand regular 16 vs X, which of course is right at 0, although 'counter's basic strategy' which I play has you always standing 16 vs X (not including 88 vs X).

Standing 88 vs X in a very high count is one of those plays that isn't about winning more, but rather losing less. :( But THAT adds up too.

Can someone please confirm for me that according to basic strategy (d-s17) the play is to surrender 15 vs 10 and 16 vs 9-A. Because why is 15 vs 10 a Fab 4 Surrender if it's already a surrender according to basic strategy.

Quote: makaveli66

Can someone please confirm for me that according to basic strategy (d-s17) the play is to surrender 15 vs 10 and 16 vs 9-A. Because why is 15 vs 10 a Fab 4 Surrender if it's already a surrender according to basic strategy.

It's surrender at a count of zero or higher.

Quote: 1BB

It's surrender at a count of zero or higher.

Right, that is the Fab 4 surrender play. But the Basic Strategy play is already to surrender anyway. So if the count is worse than 0 you would still surrender due to that being the basic strategy play?

Quote: makaveli66

Right, that is the Fab 4 surrender play. But the Basic Strategy play is already to surrender anyway. So if the count is worse than 0 you would still surrender due to that being the basic strategy play?

No. You hit at a RUNNING count of -1.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

No. You hit at a RUNNING count of -1.

Got it. What is the play for 16 vs 9-A as basic strategy says to surrender. Would it be the same, to surrender at 0 or better and to stay with a running count of -1 or worse?

I'm just trying to clear this up. Because at the basic strategy chart Wiz has up at this site, you surrender 16 vs 9-A. Until a short time ago I always thought the "book" play was to hit 15 vs 10 and 16 vs 9-A.

Quote: makaveli66

I'm just trying to clear this up. Because at the basic strategy chart Wiz has up at this site, you surrender 16 vs 9-A. Until a short time ago I always thought the "book" play was to hit 15 vs 10 and 16 vs 9-A.

Basic strategy - surrender if offered, if not offered hit. Counting - follow your indices.

Thank u. Let's say surrender is offered though at a s17 table. You would surrender 15 vs 10 and 16 vs 9-A if the RUNNING count is 0 or better and hit if the RUNNING count is -1 or worse? I should add that as of now I'm counting according to the Ill-18 and Fab 4 surrenders only.

Quote: makaveli66

Thank u. Let's say surrender is offered though at a s17 table. You would surrender 15 vs 10 and 16 vs 9-A if the RUNNING count is 0 or better and hit if the RUNNING count is -1 or worse? I should add that as of now I'm counting according to the Ill-18 and Fab 4 surrenders only.

Use a basic strategy engine for S17 and Late Surrender (LS). It will tell you your "TC 0" plays for surrendering... Such as 16 to A-10-9, and 15 to 10. Past that use your indices.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/strategy/calculator/