California No Bust 21st Century Blackjack

I am having the hardest time finding a return for this game. I've used the Wizards blackjack calculator to calculate the house edge for each blackjack game, however with the "No Bust" stipulation, I can imagine it changes the return significantly. For clarification, the "No Bust" rule states that if the player busts with three cards and the dealer also busts, but in a higher amount, the player pushes the wager. If the dealer bust amount equals or is less than the player then the wager loses. Other rules in the game: 6 decks, hits soft 17, double after split, double on any two cards, re-split four times, split aces get one card and can not re-split, surrender, and 6-5 BJ. Can anyone help me with the house edge on this game with the "No Bust" rule or know where I can find more information?

bumpp, wizard is there an answer for this one, also interested at bay 101 casino

Here

That's not it, I thought so, too.

I called Bay 101 and the guy said the game they call, "No Bust," Blackjack doesn't use a joker and comes with the Buster side bet. He also said Naturals are handled as standard.

Ya so no surrender. But if you bust with 3 cards and have higher total then dealer you push. No joker's.
People are doubling down with 12s because of this. I noticed

Quote: Mission146

That's not it, I thought so, too.

I called Bay 101 and the guy said the game they call, "No Bust," Blackjack doesn't use a joker and comes with the Buster side bet. He also said Naturals are handled as standard.

Here's the writeup:

http://www.bay101.com/Gaming/Table-Games/California-Games/How-to-Play-21st-Century-Blackjack

"Hands then compete, one at a time, as in a Nevada blackjack game, against the player-dealer hand. The object of the game is to get as close to a natural as possible (21 formed by an ace plus a 10, jack, queen, or king), without going over 21. A natural pays 6:5 — except for ties. You can’t bust by going over 21; your hand has a chance to push if it totals 22-25 and is closer to 21 than the player-dealer’s hand.
Any hand that does not go over a natural and is the same as the player-dealer’s is a push (tie).
Players must hit 11 or less, and can choose to hit or stand on 12-20. The player-dealer has no choices. The player-dealer must stand on hard 17 and higher, hit soft 17, and hit any other hand 16 or less. "

From another website:
"If a player goes over 21, their hand is not discarded or dead. Instead, it is marked as having gone over 21, and the rest of the play resumes at the table. When the dealer eventually completes their hand (as is typical in blackjack, the dealer draws cards last), if the dealer ends up busting but has a higher hand total than a busted player, it counts as a push for the player (they get their bet back). If the dealer busts with the same or lower total than the player, the player loses. As you can imagine, this alters the strategy for such things as hitting a 12"

Surprised that the Wizard doesn't have an up-to-date page.

That's all as he said, I'm just saying the Wizard's page mentions a joker and all 21's are treated as equal.

anyone able to get the percent edge on this game? much appreciated

Quote: Runlikegod777

anyone able to get the percent edge on this game? much appreciated

Does each hand require a fee to be paid to the casino? If so, what is the fee schedule?

Yes $1 per $100. So I can just add an extra 1 percent if betting $100. But can't figure out the edge of the game to begin with

Quote: Runlikegod777

Yes $1 per $100. So I can just add an extra 1 percent if betting $100. But can't figure out the edge of the game to begin with

My preliminary infinite-deck result not counting the 1% collection fee is a player EV of -0.74%. The 6-deck game would be better, of course.

I used dealer hits soft 17, winning blackjacks pay 6:5, late surrender on first two cards only, double on any two cards, double after split, split non-ace pairs to four hands, split aces get one card each, and the no-bust rule. For the no-bust rule, a 3-card busted player hand pushes a busted dealer hand of a higher total.

there is no surrender allowed in this game, and is dealt from 8 decks. How much will this change the E.V. ?

Quote: Runlikegod777

there is no surrender allowed in this game, and is dealt from 8 decks. How much will this change the E.V. ?

The players' EV would change very little by taking away surrender from California no-bust blackjack. The infinite-deck EV player's EV would change from -0.74% to -.77%. (This is because the only basic strategy surrenders in no-bust blackjack are 16 vs ten and 16 and17 vs ace.)

My infinite-deck no-bust blackjack players' EV without surrender is -0.770%. Adjustments to the infinite-deck result are about +0.050% for eight decks and +0.066% for six decks. So, California no-bust 8-deck no-surrender blackjack with your rules would have a players' EV of about -0.72%.

I don't make it a priority to keep up with all the ridiculous no-bust blackjack games in the LA and SF areas. The analysis is difficult and of interest to so few people.

Basic strategy for a few hands might be different in this variant.

I am pretty sure that you should HIT 12v4.

You should also evaluate the HIT/STAND decision for 12v5,6 and 13v2.

Quote: gordonm888

Basic strategy for a few hands might be different in this variant.

I am pretty sure that you should HIT 12v4.

You should also evaluate the HIT/STAND decision for 12v5,6 and 13v2.

I agree. For 2-card 12s, my infinite-deck basic strategy is hit vs 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. And for 2-card 13s, I get hit vs 2, 3, 4, and 5.

See Stephen How's page about a similar variation. My hit/stand decision for a 2-card 13 vs 5 is very close, and Stephen How has stand on 13 vs 5, which is probably correct for six or eight decks.

Okay. I see from Steve Howe's page that the No Bust rule was worth 1.22% in his analysis. That's a very useful number.

Thanks that is pretty useful.

Would anyone know how to calculate the e.v. of doubling down on 12 vs a 5 or 6 on these rules.

Quote: Runlikegod777

Thanks that is pretty useful.

Would anyone know how to calculate the e.v. of doubling down on 12 vs a 5 or 6 on these rules.

Yes, and here are the EVs for double, stand, and hit hard 12 using the infinite-deck model:

Hard 12	Dealer = 5	Dealer = 6
Double	-0.187	-0.130
Stand	-0.165	-0.121
Hit	-0.094	-0.065

hey is there a program, chart I can use to see this also for hitting hard 13 vs 4,5,6 or some other examples too.

furthermore if you estimated people always played the 12 and 13 incorrectly by double down on it, instead of hitting it what would the house edge increase to?