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Joeman
Joeman
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September 8th, 2017 at 9:02:59 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Fixed that for you. Perhaps if the cops killing American citizens wasn't one of the top 10 ways to die in America, there wouldn't be a problem?

You mean top ten in media coverage, right? Because if you are talking leading causes of death, it doesn't even crack the top 100 (probably not even top 1,000).

Take 2014, one of the worst years for people killed by the police (1.5 x average of the past 10 years). Total number of deaths in the US: 2,626,418 (source) The total number of these deaths caused by police? 632 (source)

That's 0.02% of all deaths. And this number includes justified killings. I would imagine, based on what I see in the news, that the number of those 632 deaths that rise to the level of murder would be in the single digits.

Romes, I understand the outrage. One police murder is too many, but by vastly overstating the statistics, you only hurt your argument.
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beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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September 8th, 2017 at 9:20:02 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Quote: MidwestAP

I can't stand the environment we live in now, where police citizen literal bashing has become common and accepted...

Fixed that for you. Perhaps if the cops killing American citizens wasn't one of the top 10 ways to die in America, there wouldn't be a problem?

It's just ironic, because that's exactly what the police do and why you see so many murders by them... They don't know the facts and they start pulling the triggers.

I'm not even trying to put a ton of race in to this post, but the most obvious example to me... Last September... Female cop pulls over black man because she thought he looked like someone they were searching for (who knows how true that is - but basically the man didn't even commit a traffic violation). Draws her weapon and orders him out of the vehicle. He cooperates with every word she says. When out she orders him to put his hands on his car. With his hands raised he goes to put them on his car and then she starts shooting him, claiming he was reaching in the vehicle for a weapon when in fact the DOOR AND WINDOW WERE CLOSED. This man committed no crime, at all, and she cold blooded murdered him... THEN SHE WAS ACQUITTED OF THE MURDER EVEN THOUGH IT WAS ALL CAUGHT ON VIDEO. This is THE standard for the problem of police brutality in America. Cops keep killing people, and then because they're "a cop" they just get away with MURDER. You can only MURDER people for so long before they start to get pissed off and/or do something back. It's obvious. After this is when the "cop shootings" started to happen. I don't support the murders ON EITHER SIDE, but s**t, how obvious is it that if you keep murdering innocent civilians that they're going to start murdering you back?



I'm somewhere in the middle on this, but:

I find it HIGHLY ironic that the same people who insist on their second amendment rights with no restrictions, tend to be the people who dismiss killings by cops as automatically justified . Supposedly, the 2nd amendment (literal statement in the Constitution, not interpreted) is to allow an armed citizenry to fight back in the case of government tyranny . That same govt tyranny the police are using on profiled citizens.

Same thought process down through the generations. Goes back to that 3/5th thing, I think. As opposed to being counted as a full citizen if you're white and male.
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boymimbo
boymimbo
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September 8th, 2017 at 9:45:16 AM permalink
Quote: RS

Yes, it is a myth. The supposed "wage gap" is due to taking the yearly income from all men and women who work full time jobs. It doesn't take into account the different jobs or any other factor.

To say there's a 22% wage gap (78 cents per $1) between men and women for doing the same comparable work.....is like saying there's a wage gap in my family. My dad and I both work full time in comparable jobs, he makes $250k/year and I only make $20k/year (who cares that I work at McDonald's but he's an anesthesiologist).*

What percentage pay did you make compared to the men you worked with?



BBB was in a union and likely got paid at the same rate as her male counterparts. There are major causes for the wage gap:

(1) Women working lesser hours in their prime earning years as a result of pregnancy and/or child care commitments.
(2) Employers choose to pay them less because they assume that they will not be as committed to their jobs, and because they are paid and valued less, choose to stay at home to raise kids, perpetuating the cycle.
(3) Women not getting promoted or getting raises at the same time as men. Men are chosen for promotions and raises at much higher rates then women.
(4) Men are getting hired at higher paying jobs than women do, despite the same qualifications.
(5) Men get paid much more when they choose to transfer jobs and they do so at a much higher rates (likely because women value their benefits more).
(6) Educational differences (degrees) but this reason is rapidly closing as more women pursue more traditional degrees in the sciences. It does explain the wage gap among genders who did not complete college, for example.

The end results... in high paying jobs, the bulk of wage inequity due to all of the reasons above.

To use your examples... yes the same worker gets paid the same amount at McDonalds but management will disproportionately give raises and promotions to men over women because of discrimination.

... anesthesiologists likely suffer a wage gap for the same reasons.

----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Homelessnyc
Homelessnyc
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September 8th, 2017 at 10:30:29 AM permalink
Using the statistic that women make 78 cents on the dollar as evidence of rampant discrimination has been debunked over and over again. That statistic doesn’t take into account a lot of choices that women and men make—education, years of experience and hours worked—that influence earnings. If we want to have a fruitful discussion about a gender wage gap, we should have it after the comparison is adjusted for those factors. In a 2013 Slate article, Hanna Rosin, author of The End of Men, for example, wrote:

The official Bureau of Labor Department statistics show that the median earnings of full-time female workers is 77 percent of the median earnings of full-time male workers. But that is very different than “77 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as men.” The latter gives the impression that a man and a woman standing next to each other doing the same job for the same number of hours get paid different salaries. That’s not at all the case. “Full time” officially means 35 hours, but men work more hours than women. That’s the first problem: We could be comparing men working 40 hours to women working 35
boymimbo
boymimbo
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September 8th, 2017 at 10:47:10 AM permalink
Quote: Homelessnyc

Using the statistic that women make 78 cents on the dollar as evidence of rampant discrimination has been debunked over and over again. That statistic doesn’t take into account a lot of choices that women and men make—education, years of experience and hours worked—that influence earnings. If we want to have a fruitful discussion about a gender wage gap, we should have it after the comparison is adjusted for those factors. In a 2013 Slate article, Hanna Rosin, author of The End of Men, for example, wrote:

The official Bureau of Labor Department statistics show that the median earnings of full-time female workers is 77 percent of the median earnings of full-time male workers. But that is very different than “77 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as men.” The latter gives the impression that a man and a woman standing next to each other doing the same job for the same number of hours get paid different salaries. That’s not at all the case. “Full time” officially means 35 hours, but men work more hours than women. That’s the first problem: We could be comparing men working 40 hours to women working 35



I fail to understand how us white guys can't admit that we have every advantage in life. For example, the chart in the post above takes those factors into account (education, experience, hours) and still finds an unexplained gap. Even the quote you give above isn't very compelling "could be". Are we?

Instead of just dissing race inequality and wage inequality some of us try to say it doesn't exist and explain it away using statistical anomalies and unverifiable anecdotal information.

Yes, some of the 22% is attributable to education and women's propensity to take time out for child-rearing and care. Not all of it. A NYT article says that 41% of the gender pay gap is unexplained.
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AxelWolf
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monet0412
September 8th, 2017 at 12:22:10 PM permalink
I think it's a myth as well. But if its true, women get enough free drinks to make up for it.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RogerKint
RogerKint
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Homelessnyc
September 8th, 2017 at 12:28:14 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I fail to understand how us white guys can't admit that we have every advantage in life. For example, the chart in the post above takes those factors into account (education, experience, hours) and still finds an unexplained gap. Even the quote you give above isn't very compelling "could be". Are we?

Instead of just dissing race inequality and wage inequality some of us try to say it doesn't exist and explain it away using statistical anomalies and unverifiable anecdotal information.

Yes, some of the 22% is attributable to education and women's propensity to take time out for child-rearing and care. Not all of it. A NYT article says that 41% of the gender pay gap is unexplained.



I fail to understand why you think it's ok to make broad generalizations based on race as long as it's the white race. Clearly, not every white male has an advantage because of his skin color. In many cases his skin color is a disadvantage (staying outside too long or trying to pick up Puerto Rican chicks). Jokes aside, this may be hard for a white person to understand who was raised in a white neighborhood to rich, white parents (not saying you were).
Last edited by: RogerKint on Sep 8, 2017
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RS
RS
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September 8th, 2017 at 12:42:57 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Fixed that for you. Perhaps if the cops killing American citizens wasn't one of the top 10 ways to die in America, there wouldn't be a problem?


No chance in hell is being killed by a cop (in USA) anywhere near top 10 most likely ways to die.

Quote: Romes

It's just ironic, because that's exactly what the police do and why you see so many murders by them... They don't know the facts and they start pulling the triggers.

I'm not even trying to put a ton of race in to this post, but the most obvious example to me... Last September... Female cop pulls over black man because she thought he looked like someone they were searching for (who knows how true that is - but basically the man didn't even commit a traffic violation). Draws her weapon and orders him out of the vehicle. He cooperates with every word she says. When out she orders him to put his hands on his car. With his hands raised he goes to put them on his car and then she starts shooting him, claiming he was reaching in the vehicle for a weapon when in fact the DOOR AND WINDOW WERE CLOSED. This man committed no crime, at all, and she cold blooded murdered him... THEN SHE WAS ACQUITTED OF THE MURDER EVEN THOUGH IT WAS ALL CAUGHT ON VIDEO. This is THE standard for the problem of police brutality in America. Cops keep killing people, and then because they're "a cop" they just get away with MURDER. You can only MURDER people for so long before they start to get pissed off and/or do something back. It's obvious. After this is when the "cop shootings" started to happen. I don't support the murders ON EITHER SIDE, but s**t, how obvious is it that if you keep murdering innocent civilians that they're going to start murdering you back?


Of course police brutality and over-use of power and all that exists....but lumping in a bunch of cases where that isn't the case just hurts the argument that police brutality exists. It's like the boy who cried wolf.


Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm somewhere in the middle on this, but:

I find it HIGHLY ironic that the same people who insist on their second amendment rights with no restrictions, tend to be the people who dismiss killings by cops as automatically justified . Supposedly, the 2nd amendment (literal statement in the Constitution, not interpreted) is to allow an armed citizenry to fight back in the case of government tyranny . That same govt tyranny the police are using on profiled citizens.

Same thought process down through the generations. Goes back to that 3/5th thing, I think. As opposed to being counted as a full citizen if you're white and male.


I'm not seeing many people who are automatically dismissing killings of cops (cops killing others) and saying or thinking they're automatically justified. It's just that the facts are usually a bit deeper than, "He a racist!!!" or "Police brutality exists because Trayvon Martin* & Michael Brown...."


Trayvon Martin case --- George Zimmerman wasn't a policeman
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mcallister3200
mcallister3200
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September 8th, 2017 at 1:03:55 PM permalink
Murder is not even among the top 10 causes of death in US, so yeah no way. You definitely do have a major policing problem however, when foreign goverments are issuing travel advisories about law enforcement officers being far more likely to use deadly force than other developed countries and not to travel with cash as it is a high risk of being stolen by law enforcement. The only way that's not a problem is if you automatically blame everything you disagree with as being the medias fault. I bet if police settlements came out of their pensions the legitimate problems would drastically reduce.
FleaStiff
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Rigondeaux
September 8th, 2017 at 1:39:39 PM permalink
Quote: LuckyPhow

Agreed. Tomorrow's headline will feature the storm. But, this could still be a big deal.
......
As I see it, that's the "big deal." Thanx for asking.



Thanks for your very well presented views. My 'ho hum' post was meant to be an illustration of the police views on the matter, not my views. If they had shot someone for being black and running from gunfire when everyone else is running from gunfire, it would soon be off the front page, the storm, Trump Folies, Korean saber rattling, bit coin, German elections, forrest fires, etc.

Things rarely stay in the headlines, reporters no longer sink their teeth into bones and hang on, reporters no longer have any teeth, the press is too oriented to entertainment. Its all 'fair and balanced' coverage of one side's press release and the other side's press release and then onto some other pablum.

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