Las Vegas Raiders?

Quote: JohnnyQ

$ 750 Million

I'd like to know how I can join the booster clubs for the San Antonio Raiders, Oklahoma City Raiders, Nashville Raiders, Honolulu Raiders, Les Malfaiteurs de Quebec, Ciudad de Mexico Asaltantes, London Raiders... I believe many of my neighbors would be enthusiastic about sending them to places like that. Because they are generous folks that way.

Quote: RS

Would be cool to get an NFL team in LV.....just not the Raiders.

Hold your tongue. Raiders would be the perfect fit

Raiders. Ugh. Agree with RS.

They aren't the "old" Raiders.

New blood, etc.

With Al gone, they finally have someone with a clue building the team.

Go deep.

Quote: mcallister3200

I don't disagree with that, but the reality is a team is never going anywhere the public isn't paying a significant portion....the owners make a business decision and move on to a city that will. As well as threaten/hold the current city hostage 20 years later when they want a newer stadium with all the bells and whistles. That's just the reality of how it works.

It is/was a nice thing, not having any big time teams here. We're already stuck with that dumb hockey team, which is a key reason for paid parking at MGM.

Maybe one way to convey it to the sort of person who wants these parasites.

We could hold a lotto where 75,000 people are picked at random and given ten grand, OR we could give that money (and more) to the owner of the Raiders, a semi-retarded rich kid who has never held a job.

Quote: Rigondeaux

It is/was a nice thing, not having any big time teams here. We're already stuck with that dumb hockey team, which is a key reason for paid parking at MGM.

Maybe one way to convey it to the sort of person who wants these parasites.

We could hold a lotto where 75,000 people are picked at random and given ten grand, OR we could give that money (and more) to the owner of the Raiders, a semi-retarded rich kid who has never held a job.

Just wait until the only game on TV in a Sunday time slot is a Raiders home game against the Chargers, Texans, Titans, Jaguars or whoever else sucks when/if they get here. About one-third of all Sunday day games would be Raiders. Most would be the only one on at the time. You better love the Raiders, spring for DTV Sunday Ticket or use one of those sketchy streaming sites.

Also, the $750 million doesn't appear to be the true number. The TIF would go towards the Raiders and LV Sands. This would be a stadium in the $1.4b range built almost entirely with public funds in the end but the Raiders, Sands and the realtor would reap all the benefits.

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2016/06/22/11263/tax-kickbacks-could-increase-public-cost-of-vegas-raiders-stadium-to-1b/

On the plus side, think of the multiplier effect of all the opportunities this would create. Which I'm sure we'll be hearing about shortly. In a town where there would otherwise be nothing to do, nowhere to go, and such a shortage of alternative ways for people to spend entertainment money. Imagine all the informal entrepreneur opportunities on eight Sunday evenings a year at the world's largest block party... which will be held in the middle of I-15 when the hungover weekend hotel turnover crush melds with people trying to leave the billion dollar football palace. The street performers, recycled water salesmen, and squeegee extortionists should make a killing on the thousands of people in their cars who won't be able to drive them anywhere soon.

Oh sh-t....I didn't even think about that -- the awful traffic an NFL team would cause here. But, as long as it's not the Raiders, it wouldn't be too bad. Hell, I could get used to this -- The Las Vegas Chargers! Has a nice ring to it, don't'cha know?

Quote: DrawingDead

On the plus side, think of the multiplier effect of all the opportunities this would create. Which I'm sure we'll be hearing about shortly. In a town where there would otherwise be nothing to do, nowhere to go, and such a shortage of alternative ways for people to spend entertainment money. Imagine all the informal entrepreneur opportunities on eight Sunday evenings a year at the world's largest block party... which will be held in the middle of I-15 when the hungover weekend hotel turnover crush melds with people trying to leave the billion dollar football palace. The street performers, recycled water salesmen, and squeegee extortionists should make a killing on the thousands of people in their cars who won't be able to drive them anywhere soon.

Also, it will "raise the profile" of the city, and other completely meaningless buzz phrases issued by crooked politicians.

And create legitimate jobs, like being a hot dog vendor for eight days a year.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Also, it will "raise the profile" of the city, and other completely meaningless buzz phrases issued by crooked politicians.

And create legitimate jobs, like being a hot dog vendor for eight days a year.

That's probably a good gig. At least for the business owner.

I'm not interested in having a NFL team in Las Vegas, and I certainly don't want the Raiders if the stadium financing is going to go down the way that Adelson and Davis are proposing. Let those billionaires fund the stadium themselves if they think the benefits are going to be that good.

Quote: pacomartin

I am saying that there are over a dozen television markets that are larger than Las Vegas with no teams. Filling the stadium with visitor is one thing, but the real money maker is the television. You can argue that Orlando has a bigger TV market plus out of town visitors. Then there is Portland or Raleigh.

Las Vegas, according to the Census Bureau, is the center of the 29th largest Metropolitan Statistical Area in the U.S. Excluding your three so-called "legacy teams," invoking that criteria would exclude N.F.L. teams in cities like Portland, OR; Kansas City, MO; Cleveland, Indianapolis and Nashville. And the N.F.L.'s having 32 teams means that there could not be even 12 larger markets than Las Vegas without teams.

Quote: doughtaker

I'm not interested in having a NFL team in Las Vegas, and I certainly don't want the Raiders if the stadium financing is going to go down the way that Adelson and Davis are proposing. Let those billionaires fund the stadium themselves if they think the benefits are going to be that good.

+1

Quote: doughtaker

Let those billionaires fund the stadium themselves if they think the benefits are going to be that good.

+2

There will be some changes around here when I am in charge !

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/billionaire-casino-magnate-wants-las-vegas-taxpayers-to-pay-for-raiders-stadium/

"Sheldon Adelson is a billionaire. He is the CEO of the Las Vegas Sands Corporation, which owns and operates such properties as the Sands Expo, The Venetian, and The Palazzo (all in Las Vegas, Nevada); Sands Macao, Cotai Arena, The Venetian Macao, The Plaza Macao, San Cotai Central, The Parisian, Four Seasons Hotel Macao, Conrad Macao, Holiday Inn Macao, Sheraton Macao, and the St. Regis Macao (all in Macao, China); the Sands Casino Resort Bethlehem (Bethlehem, Pennsylvania); and Marina Bay Sands (Marina Bay, Singapore). It's the largest casino company in the world.

On Thursday, per Bloomberg.com, Adelson proposed to a committee of government leaders and casino executives a 65,000-seat domed football stadium in Las Vegas that would include the largest taxpayer subsidy in the history of sports stadiums..... The plan would be to raise $750 million for the stadium through a tax on hotel stays, per Bloomberg".

This is such a good idea, I would simply make the Extra Hotel room tax optional !

I would love to see an NFL team in Vegas but I am not willing to pay much for it. If it is not at least 75% privately funded I would vote against it.

Anybody who wants a facility for their employees to work in should pay for it themselves!

Although the terms may be negotiable, the days of privately built stadiums are about over. The cat is out of the bag.

New Las Vegas Raiders logo unveiled:

Quote: DeMango

Although the terms may be negotiable, the days of privately built stadiums are about over. The cat is out of the bag.

Then it's stupid to bring a team to your city.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Then it's stupid to bring a team to your city.

You're being sarcastic, but I agree with you, and take it a step further, it is stupid for a city to pay for a stadium and not buy the team. For 750 million you pay for a stadium someone else owns, but for 750 million you can also buy a team. It's not wrong that's smart. Keep the taxes, keep the profits. From there either cut other taxes or build the city greater. Of course some say a profit isn't made until you sell the team, which politically would be difficult.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

You're being sarcastic, but I agree with you, and take it a step further, it is stupid for a city to pay for a stadium and not buy the team. For 750 million you pay for a stadium someone else owns, but for 750 million you can also buy a team. It's not wrong that's smart. Keep the taxes, keep the profits. From there either cut other taxes or build the city greater. Of course some say a profit isn't made until you sell the team, which politically would be difficult.

I wasn't being sarcastic. Publicly financing a sports team, or most any other business, is stupid. It's been pretty well proven, and all of the justifications involve pretty transparent shell games.

Your idea might make more sense. Instead of giving them a tax break (what balls), the city should have partial ownership of the team. If we're putting up 40% of the money, we get 40% of the revenue.

I have several business ideas. If anybody would like to put up half the financing, get nothing in return and then pay my taxes for me, please send a PM. I will be more than happy to launch the business in your city. We can even do it in your house. I will purchase a hot dog and some peanuts from you at inflated prices eight times per year, so it should all balance out.

I'd hate to deprive beautiful Oakland of all the prosperity and respect they've got from having this.

Quote: DrawingDead

I'd hate to deprive beautiful Oakland of all the prosperity and respect they've got from having this.

What will become of the charity tailgates?

Quote: Rigondeaux

Publicly financing a sports team, or most any other business, is stupid. It's been pretty well proven, and all of the justifications involve pretty transparent shell games.

I'm with you on this one. It's one of the worst forms of corporate welfare enabling the rich to get richer, off our taxes. Incredible.

Is there any correlation in property value going up in a city an NFL team comes to?

Quote: AxelWolf

Is there any correlation in property value going up in a city an NFL team comes to?

I've been told the property value around the Oakland Stadium has taken a huge hit as a result of rowdy fans before and after the games.

Quote: AxelWolf

Is there any correlation in property value going up in a city an NFL team comes to?

Yes... and no.

Quote: LA WeeklyA new study by real estate listings site Trulia found that while homeowners lucky enough to be around older stadiums generally enjoy greater home values than folks in neighboring communities, newer stadiums haven't boosted neighbors' selling prices.

"New stadiums built in the last decade, by and large, have failed to lift the fortunes of surrounding homeowners," a spokeswoman for the site said.

Trulia looked at 10-year real estate values within a 2-mile radius around NFL stadiums. While neighborhoods around the newest stadiums weren't necessarily producing real estate gold, two-thirds of the homes in all stadium areas had higher values than those in non-stadium communities, on average, the site said.[/q

Perhaps prices go up because parking lot developers want to buy all the neighboring homes and tear them down.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci

Quote: AxelWolf

Is there any correlation in property value going up in a city an NFL team comes to?

Yes... and no.

Quote: LA Weekly

A new study by real estate listings site Trulia found that while homeowners lucky enough to be around older stadiums generally enjoy greater home values than folks in neighboring communities, newer stadiums haven't boosted neighbors' selling prices.

"New stadiums built in the last decade, by and large, have failed to lift the fortunes of surrounding homeowners," a spokeswoman for the site said.

Trulia looked at 10-year real estate values within a 2-mile radius around NFL stadiums. While neighborhoods around the newest stadiums weren't necessarily producing real estate gold, two-thirds of the homes in all stadium areas had higher values than those in non-stadium communities, on average, the site said.

Perhaps prices go up because parking lot developers want to buy all the neighboring homes and tear them down.

Even if values went up a bit to build parking lots, it would be bad news if you are a renter, or if you are a future first time home buyer in the area.

I think people aren't really putting 2 and 2 together, when discussing such paltry gains as some home owners turning a buck, in the face of a hand out of well over a billion dollars.

Google tells me that the budget for the city of Las Vegas is a little over $500 million. They want to give away more than twice the annual budget for the whole city.

You could give $20,000 scholarships to 50,000 students with that money. Or, just keep it in the economy instead of handing it to the richest man in town in a giant sack.

Insanity.

I propose an alternative new stimulating civic entertainment attraction. Have a contest on whether to call it 'Watch for Flying Money!' or 'Cash in Your Hair!' or 'Luckybucks Underfoot!' or 'Bill Stuck to Your Fanny!' or 'Doncha Mow Dat Vegas Moolah!' or something. How long will it take to send about a billion crisp US Federal Reserve Notes wafting off the top of the Stratosphere tower by launching them into the breeze over the city one shovel full at a time going 24/7/365? I'm guessing quite a bit longer than the Las Vegas Raiders, or Vultures, or Suckers, or Boobs, or Boobsuckingvultures will take before declaring their new marketing base unsatisfactory and start issuing ransom demands.

I doubt that there is enough population in Las Vegas / in the metro area to sell out a stadium, so obviously people will have be be drawn in from elsewhere.

My guess is that there are lots of Raider fans who are willing to fly or drive to Las Vegas to catch a game; Californians can drive, others will fly in to town.

The good news is that while in town, most will probaby go to at least one casino.

Should be a viable plan, but lord, if it fails the failure could be epic.

Are the city fathers willlng to gamble?

^People who know Las Vegas as a casino resort place often have a drastically stilted view of what it actually is. (As do some former members in this thread who don't even have transportation to really explore much of it and very obviously have never been in or near most of it while working so hard at making up & borrowing some stories to be an entertaining forum star for a while for a few extremely gullible people here). Most of what they know of it isn't even IN Las Vegas, or particularly near most of the multiple Las Vegas population & industrial & commercial centers, and doesn't have much to do with most of it. It extends for many miles of suburbs in which most people and businesses have nothing at all to do with that "Las Vegas" Strip way down by the airport, not even very indirectly, and never go near it. It is, for example, a bit larger population base now than the metro area where you are (and where I also lived). But none of that really matters much for this purpose. They could put their NFL franchise in Boise or Butte if they could sucker Idahoans or Montanans into paying their capital cost, or just skipped that extra somewhat fake part about live fans. It is a TV game.

An NFL franchise is likely to be highly profitable with nobody at all in a stadium, playing in an empty TV production studio, because to an extent making them qualitatively unlike other sports, the great bulk of their revenue is from a national TV contract & national licensing deals for selling their themed swag. The Oakland/Los Angeles/Las Vegas/Timbuktu Raiders get more of their money from TV commercials selling trucks to a guy in Schenectady or Omaha who is getting drunk on his living room sofa, and not nearly as much as what others get from individual franchise revenue from local/regional TV, live gate stadium ticket sales, concessions, and the like. Stadium revenue isn't chump change for them, but with only eight freakin' home games to sell, it is only the difference between quite profitable and an added increment of more than that. And the real money in the NFL stadiums isn't even in the individual tickets sold to Joe & Josephine Schmuck wearing funny hats. It is from suites sold to organizations, and used by those organizations mostly to wine and dine people, many of them not residents of the area with no particular attachment to that particular team. Doesn't take too much imagination to think of how that might work for a Las Vegas area franchise.

But I agree it could have the potential to become an epic failure.... not for the franchise, but for the stadium and those on the hook for it. Different than failure for the franchise owner, and that's a distinction with a real big difference, and what I think is at the heart of this, driving the whole publicly financed stadium scam here and elsewhere.

On the other hand, this is encouraging, from my point of view:

As Las Vegas deal wobbles, Techno Stadium Lite might keep Raiders in Oakland

Quote: By Andy Furillo, The Sacramento Bee

Well, it's been a good week for those of us who want to see the Raiders' stadium deal in Las Vegas implode...

...<SNIP>...

"It strikes me," Trask said, "that Oakland — and by that I mean the city of Oakland, Alameda County and the Raiders — could be the first to embrace and pioneer what I believe is the next generation of stadium, which is a scaled-down, smaller stadium, which as closely as possible resembles the living-room experience."

...<SNIP>...

Getting rid of the third deck would "eliminate the cost of the portion of the stadium that is the hardest to monetize," according to Trask...

...<SNIP>...

Though I'm rooting for San Diego to keep their fictional "local team" and for this one to market themselves again soon as being supposedly "LA" again, from the new Inglewood jock palace. After all, they already have a significant fan base of a quite a number of sets of LA street gangs & the much larger market of make-believe LA bad-boy wannabes wearing their expensive Raiders 'team' themed stuff.

Quote: MrV

I doubt that there is enough population in Las Vegas / in the metro area to sell out a stadium, so obviously people will have be be drawn in from elsewhere.

My guess is that there are lots of Raider fans who are willing to fly or drive to Las Vegas to catch a game; Californians can drive, others will fly in to town.

The good news is that while in town, most will probaby go to at least one casino.

Should be a viable plan, but lord, if it fails the failure could be epic.

Are the city fathers willlng to gamble?

I definitely think it's a viable plan, and as an overall percentage, might I also suggest that Las Vegas will have one of the largest (and probably THE largest) away crowd cheering on their team, on average. Think about it: You wrap an NFL game into a weekend or a week long vacation to Las Vegas. People go to Vegas, anyway, people go to NFL games anyway, and now you can do both.

I also think the casinos will buy a not insignificant number of tickets on a combined basis for the hosts to comp to the best customers. Finally, I would also say that if I happened to be visiting Las Vegas during one of the games, I would definitely go if I felt the ticket prices were reasonable enough...I wouldn't even care who they were playing.

Quote: Mission146

I definitely think it's a viable plan, and as an overall percentage, might I also suggest that Las Vegas will have one of the largest (and probably THE largest) away crowd cheering on their team, on average. Think about it: You wrap an NFL game into a weekend or a week long vacation to Las Vegas. People go to Vegas, anyway, people go to NFL games anyway, and now you can do both.

I also think the casinos will buy a not insignificant number of tickets on a combined basis for the hosts to comp to the best customers. Finally, I would also say that if I happened to be visiting Las Vegas during one of the games, I would definitely go if I felt the ticket prices were reasonable enough...I wouldn't even care who they were playing.

How does any of this help the city enough to justify giving away the entire city budget for over 2 years?

Plug in "In N Out Burger" and it's all true, except the comps. I guess the tax payers of Vegas should be paying putting up most of the costs for every business in town that a tourist might use.

Instead of taxing the casinos all these years, the population should have been paying taxes to them!

Quote: Rigondeaux

How does any of this help the city enough to justify giving away the entire city budget for over 2 years?

With all due respect, I didn't say that it does justify that, and furthermore, concur with you that it does not. I was merely suggesting that I believe it to be a viable market for an NFL team. I think that tax revenues, levies, additional fees (which are effectively taxes) should only be going to stadiums in such event that the city, county or other jurisdiction in question gets an ownership stake in the team equal to whatever percentage they contribute to the facilities.

Ideally, however, no form of government would have anything to do with financing the facilities of what is, ultimately, a private business.

Are there stadiums that are moneymakers? I think there are. Besides 8-11 NFL games each year, the facility can be used for other events that generate income. The question is, does Las Vegas have the need for a domed stadium that holds 70,000? I think so. UNLV, Rodeos, concerts, Monster Trucks, Supercross, EDC, CES, and other large conventions would be clients. It makes Las Vegas even more attractive as a destination for conventions, business that might otherwise go to Phoenix, San Diego or Los Angeles.

I assume UNLV will play there, and upgrade their schedule . I would shoot for 25 events a year and think that would be a layup.
You might even do an outdoor NHL game, just for fun. They have proven to be great draws. They had three at Yankee Stadium last season, or the season before.

Quote: billryan

I assume UNLV will play there, and upgrade their schedule . I would shoot for 25 events a year and think that would be a layup.
You might even do an outdoor NHL game, just for fun. They have proven to be great draws. They had three at Yankee Stadium last season, or the season before.

Is it outdoors if it takes place in a dome?

Quote: billryan

I assume UNLV will play there, and upgrade their schedule .

As a privately owned stadium, UNLV will have to pay to play there. Any idea how much the owners of the stadium would be asking for?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Are there stadiums that are moneymakers? I think there are. Besides 8-11 NFL games each year, the facility can be used for other events that generate income. The question is, does Las Vegas have the need for a domed stadium that holds 70,000? I think so. UNLV, Rodeos, concerts, Monster Trucks, Supercross, EDC, CES, and other large conventions would be clients. It makes Las Vegas even more attractive as a destination for conventions, business that might otherwise go to Phoenix, San Diego or Los Angeles.

There absolutely are stadiums that make money. Under the current proposal, Adelson, Sands, Raiders, NFL will make a lot of money. Las Vegas will lose a lot of money. Minnesota just built a stadium for $1 billion. The proposal in Oakland would cost $1 billion. Phoenix built a stadium 10 years ago for less than $0.5 billion. At those prices, the city, state, or county should build the stadium, own it and then put the profits back into services that will benefit the tax payers. At $2 billion it will be a lot tougher to be profitable, unless a private company somehow gets huge welfare benefits

Quote: Ayecarumba

UNLV, Rodeos, concerts, Monster Trucks, Supercross, EDC, CES, and other large conventions would be clients.

The problem with that is Las Vegas already has all of those events so it would be taking business away from the other venues. I don't think it would add much incremental business other than the NFL games. To reiterate a point I made earlier, Vegas already has 90 to 95% occupancy on the weekends so how much more would the NFL bring? Others mention the fact that we would get a Superbowl but the truth is that Superbowl weekend is already a huge moneymaker and sell out for Las Vegas.

The biggest boost to the community will be all of the "free" advertising that Las Vegas will get and that will definitely improve the performance of the Las Vegas Visitor's Authority.

So all arguments about the positives and negatives aside, this thing is seriously moving forward.

Nevada SB1 was signed by Governor Sandoval. Next step seems to be getting an NFL owners vote (maybe in January?) to approve the move to Nevada.

Super Bowl weekend is already "big" in Las Vegas. What is it going to be like if/when the Superbowl is played in Las Vegas. Its goona be yuuuuuuge!

Quote: Keeneone

Super Bowl weekend is already "big" in Las Vegas. What is it going to be like if/when the Superbowl is played in Las Vegas. Its goona be yuuuuuuge!

That ought to be an interesting meeting of the Gaming Commission if Roger Goodell wants to invoke the "No betting of any sort on a Super Bowl played in Las Vegas" rule (Gaming Regulation 22.120(d)).

Of course, they have plenty of time to think about it; the next five Super Bowls have already been assigned cities.

Sheldon Adelson is taking a stand now, but the article doesn't make clear what his objections are. I think to sum it up, he wants to be in control and get everything he wants. Damn is Sheldon scary looking off topic, he resembles some kind of monster.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/10/27/sheldon-adelson-playing-hardball-with-raiders-over-las-vegas/

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Damn is Sheldon scary looking off topic, he resembles some kind of monster.

He looks like a zombie.

The latest

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/raiders-submitted-stadium-lease-proposal-to-las-vegas-and-theyre-asking-for-a-sweet-deal-151754058.html

Vegas has already had a professional WWF football team. Now they have an NHL team. So the NHL will work in Vegas but a historic NFL team like the Raiders will fail? I miss the Wranglers anyway, please bring back the Wranglers!

Now I have to root for a team called the Golden Knights because the owner is obsessed with West Point Academy. I'm kinda a big Pittsburgh fan so it will be impossible to root for the Raiiidaaars. That doesn't mean I won't get plenty of free tickets for hockey or football. Most likely sell them anyway.

If the Rodeo and Bull Riding sell out every year, I see no problem with the NFL.

You can bet on your phone at the games but I'd love to see the NFL/NHL embrace the book next to the concession stand LOL !

It will be fun yelling at the REFs how the fix is in when my team is losing against the spread or the puck line at the actual game instead of the television.

Adelson out.

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

Adelson out.

It's all about the money.

The last thing sin city needs is increase the tax on casino hotel rooms as had been discussed; with resort fees and pay to park that could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Goldman Sachs out.