Gabes22
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January 29th, 2016 at 10:11:04 AM permalink
Now that the moves to LA are settled with the Rams moving back next season and the Chargers moving back soon after, harkening back to their AFL days, there have been reports on ESPN and I am sure other media outlets that the Raiders front office has been in contact with Las Vegas Sands about constructing a 65,000 seat domed stadium that would be a dual purpose facility housing presumably the Raiders from the NFL and the UNLV football team. Do you see this as a realistic possibility or do you see it as the Raiders using Vegas as leverage to get something accomplished with a new stadium in Oakland?
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ThatDonGuy
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January 29th, 2016 at 12:14:09 PM permalink
It could be a little of both - get Oakland to make some sort of commitment, but have a backup plan in case it won't.

And if the NFL complains about the fact that Vegas has sports books, I say that the response should be, "So, if the NFL is not welcome in cities with sports betting, then you're going to stop playing in London when, exactly?"

Of course, if the NFL was serious about trying to stop "the gambling problem," then what it should do is:
(a) Let a team move to Las Vegas
(b) Announce that an upcoming Super Bowl is going to be played there
(c) Have the NFL commissioner pull a "David Stern" and invoke his right to have sports books taking bets on the Super Bowl prohibited if it is played in Las Vegas
(d) Sit and wait for the response
kewlj
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January 29th, 2016 at 12:26:07 PM permalink
I don't think Vegas has the ability to support a professional team.

First lets talk population. Yeah Vegas has what, roughly a million people in the metro area of Clark County. That is compatible with other cities that support professional teams. But other cities have surrounding suburban areas for 50-100 miles that make the pool of people it draws from many times larger.

For example, Philadelphia: Besides the metropolitan area of the city and immediate surrounding area, Philly sports teams draw from the southern half of New Jersey, northern part of Delaware, and on the Pennsylvania side 100 miles west past Harrisburg as well as 60-100 miles north to places like Allentown, Scranton, and all the small towns in between. In Vegas, you get outside the Clark County metropolitan area and you have some ranchers and cows and a lot of desert, to draw from.

In addition, Vegas has an extremely transient and poor population, unlike any other place I have seen. I think that places the "real" pool of people to draw from at a greatly reduced level.

Vegas doesn't support it's college football team all that well. I think we better see how the hockey teams does before jumping to being able to fill a 65,000 seat stadium.
DRich
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January 29th, 2016 at 12:49:53 PM permalink
I disagree with KewlJ. I don't think Vegas would have any problems supporting an NFL team.

The NFL is the easiest because you only need to sell out 8 games. With the local population, casino sponsorship, and the tourists that would plan their Vegas vacations around watching their team play I think it would do just fine.

I would expect other sports, including hockey, to fail here for the reasons KewlJ mentioned.
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MathExtremist
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January 29th, 2016 at 12:53:44 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I don't think Vegas has the ability to support a professional team.

First lets talk population. Yeah Vegas has what, roughly a million people in the metro area of Clark County. That is compatible with other cities that support professional teams. But other cities have surrounding suburban areas for 50-100 miles that make the pool of people it draws from many times larger.

For example, Philadelphia: Besides the metropolitan area of the city and immediate surrounding area, Philly sports teams draw from the southern half of New Jersey, northern part of Delaware, and on the Pennsylvania side 100 miles west past Harrisburg as well as 60-100 miles north to places like Allentown, Scranton, and all the small towns in between. In Vegas, you get outside the Clark County metropolitan area and you have some ranchers and cows and a lot of desert, to draw from.

In addition, Vegas has an extremely transient and poor population, unlike any other place I have seen. I think that places the "real" pool of people to draw from at a greatly reduced level.

Vegas doesn't support it's college football team all that well. I think we better see how the hockey teams does before jumping to being able to fill a 65,000 seat stadium.

Perhaps, but NFL games are usually on Sunday and the weekend population of Las Vegas swells by several hundred thousand people, many of whom have above-average income and are specifically there to spend it. If there is any city in the country that's able to support an NFL team without having sprawling suburbs nearby, I'd think it's Las Vegas.
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Gabes22
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January 29th, 2016 at 1:00:21 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I don't think Vegas has the ability to support a professional team.

First lets talk population. Yeah Vegas has what, roughly a million people in the metro area of Clark County. That is compatible with other cities that support professional teams. But other cities have surrounding suburban areas for 50-100 miles that make the pool of people it draws from many times larger.

For example, Philadelphia: Besides the metropolitan area of the city and immediate surrounding area, Philly sports teams draw from the southern half of New Jersey, northern part of Delaware, and on the Pennsylvania side 100 miles west past Harrisburg as well as 60-100 miles north to places like Allentown, Scranton, and all the small towns in between. In Vegas, you get outside the Clark County metropolitan area and you have some ranchers and cows and a lot of desert, to draw from.

In addition, Vegas has an extremely transient and poor population, unlike any other place I have seen. I think that places the "real" pool of people to draw from at a greatly reduced level.

Vegas doesn't support it's college football team all that well. I think we better see how the hockey teams does before jumping to being able to fill a 65,000 seat stadium.



Metro Philly has about 5 million people in it, very akin to the metro areas of Atlanta, Boston etc. Vegas has a similar Metro population akin to places like Minneapolis, St Louis, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Milwaukee etc all of which support multiple sports franchises. I don't think Vegas will have trouble selling out for the NFL, plus there are active fan base chapters for just about every team out there in Vegas as well
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kewlj
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January 29th, 2016 at 1:09:11 PM permalink
Quote: DRich



The NFL is the easiest because you only need to sell out 8 games. With the local population, casino sponsorship, and the tourists that would plan their Vegas vacations around watching their team play I think it would do just fine.



This is a valid point, DRich. For much of it's existence until recent years when they became real good, Arizona has had some of this going on. They would sell out when The Cowboys, Bears, Seattle or several other teams that travel very strong came to town, but have less support otherwise.

With Vegas being travel destination city, there would be definitely be some of that going on.
ThatDonGuy
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January 29th, 2016 at 1:20:28 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Perhaps, but NFL games are usually on Sunday and the weekend population of Las Vegas swells by several hundred thousand people, many of whom have above-average income and are specifically there to spend it. If there is any city in the country that's able to support an NFL team without having sprawling suburbs nearby, I'd think it's Las Vegas.


The problem with this is, most of the "weekenders" are from Southern California, so they (a) probably will already have a team now that the Rams (and Chargers? Did I hear that right?) are moving to Los Angeles, and (b) may not want to stay in Vegas until the game ends, which is 4 PM at the very least (and you should assume that at least four home games will start at 1:25, so the earliest end time would be more like 4:30...and where would the crowd be for a Thursday / Sunday / Monday night game, although the way around that is simply not to schedule any Vegas home games except on Sunday afternoons), which means they still have a long trip home right before going to work the next day.

Still, if Las Vegas can support a NASCAR race every year, then why not an NFL team?
Gabes22
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January 29th, 2016 at 1:27:14 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

This is a valid point, DRich. For much of it's existence until recent years when they became real good, Arizona has had some of this going on. They would sell out when The Cowboys, Bears, Seattle or several other teams that travel very strong came to town, but have less support otherwise.

With Vegas being travel destination city, there would be definitely be some of that going on.


Yeah, I mean do the math, Vegas has what 40 million hotel visitors each year and that is 52 weeks per year so 3/4 of a million people per week with I would say at least half, if not more of that being there on the weekend
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GWAE
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January 29th, 2016 at 1:46:22 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I disagree with KewlJ. I don't think Vegas would have any problems supporting an NFL team.

The NFL is the easiest because you only need to sell out 8 games. With the local population, casino sponsorship, and the tourists that would plan their Vegas vacations around watching their team play I think it would do just fine.

I would expect other sports, including hockey, to fail here for the reasons KewlJ mentioned.



Selling out won't be a problem but I wonder if they will have any of their own fans there?
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HowMany
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January 29th, 2016 at 1:52:21 PM permalink
I wonder if the fans would be pressured to tip the workers that scan your ticket when you enter the stadium?
Ayecarumba
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January 29th, 2016 at 1:52:56 PM permalink
I don't see it happening. The NFL's requirement of a gambling ban would be too huge to overcome. Can you imagine the sound of the crickets in the sports books if the Las Vegas NFL team got into, or hosts the Super Bowl? A move to Texas is more likely for the Silver and Black.
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DrawingDead
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January 29th, 2016 at 4:53:04 PM permalink
Arrgh. *sound of hair tearing* Almost everything stated earlier about the basic demographics of Las Vegas is just plain wrong, and spectacularly so.

The population of the Las Vegas metropolitan area is over two million. twice as much as was stated, and has been for over a decade according to the US Census. But that would still make it quite a small prospective market for a major professional sports franchise, though not the absolute smallest. The median income of the metropolitan area is right at the US average of just over $53k, again according to US Census figures, and it has a somewhat smaller percentage of poverty among the population than most large US cities, definitely not larger (though major cities generally have a higher rate of poverty & illiteracy, unemployment, etc. than the overall US population average which includes non-urban areas). The comparison was made with Philadelphia, which has about the same median income of around $53k (with a much higher cost of living), but has a lot higher poverty rate of 27.7% which is 156% that of Las Vegas.

Not that it really matters much, because unlike other sports NFL revenue comes primarily from the national contract for selling beer and trucks to people spending their lives getting drunk in front of a television, rather than the much more significant live gate and local television generated in other sports. There are only eight home games a year for an NFL franchise, and the real money in the NFL live gate revenue is from high-end private boxes bought by businesses and used primarily to wine & dine & entertain people who don't live there. But no, I don't think it is very likely there will be an NFL franchise in Las Vegas any time soon in my opinion. And I'm glad; I hope it stays that way.

Go San Antonio Raiders, or Ciudad de Mexico Invasores, or Wherever Whatevers!
Last edited by: DrawingDead on Jan 29, 2016
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Rigondeaux
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January 29th, 2016 at 8:24:25 PM permalink
Very unlikely I think. I'll lay -300 on the no.

Thankfully. Last thing a town with one of the worst school systems in the country needs to do is start handing millions in tax money over to a wealthy owner. And the Raiders are perhaps the worst team in this regard. Absolute disdain for the community, wherever they go. They suck up as much cash as they could get and, in 10-20 years, on to the next suckers.
kewlj
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January 29th, 2016 at 8:44:16 PM permalink
Hold on there Drawing Dead. I will concede that the Leas Vegas Metropolitan population is 2 million, which is more than I stated (didn't look it up). But once you get outside this area which is basically Clark County there is nothing. So that is the drawing area. 2million.

In the example used Philadelphia the city has 1.5 million. But the Philadelphia metropolitan area, known as The Delaware Valley includes 8 different suburban counties surrounding Philadelphia, New Jersey and Northern Delaware. The 2010 population of The Delaware Valley was nearly 8 million. And as a previous Philadelphia Eagles season ticket holder, I can tell you that many fans came from outside of that immediate metropolitan area (the Delaware Valley). Many fans came from places like Harrisburg, Reading, Allentown, Scranton, Easton in Pennsylvania, and the Jersey Shore areas in New Jersey. All within a 90 minute drive of Philadelphia, but outside that immediate metropolitan. So when you extend out the area from which the Eagles draw from you are talking 10-12 million people. That is a bit difference than the Las Vegas metropolitan area which has a corrected number of 2 million and very little further out.

Same problem with comparing the median incomes. You chose to compare the median incomes of Las Vegas vs the actual city of Philadelphia which is close, as you stated, 50K for Vegas (which surprises me) vs 53k for the city of Philadelphia. But when you get into the immediate surrounding suburban counties of Philadelphia, which Vegas does not have, you see much higher median incomes, 65K for Chester County, 62K for Montgomery county, 60K+ for Bucks Co and Burlington County New Jersey and so on.

Las Vegas doesn't have these additional affluent suburban areas. The suburban areas it does have like Summerlin is already folded into the Las Vegas numbers, which is why that median income number of 50K for Las Vegas is higher than I expected. The suburban areas for Philadelphia is not already included in the City of Philadelphia's 53K median income. If you include these suburban areas the Philadelphia median income soars above 53k and the comparison not nearly as close.

So you are talking about a drawing population of 10-12 million with a median income of probably around 60K for Philadelphia vs a population of 2 million for Las Vegas (with little surrounding area) and a median income of 50K. Now yes, Philadelphia is a larger market, but even some of the smaller markets probably have a fan base of 5-6 million vs Las Vegas's 2 million.

I also am not sure how that median income thing works. I suspect there are a handful of super rich people, casino owners and such (Sheldon Adelsons and Steve Wynns types) that artificially raise that median income number here in Vegas. I stand by my earlier statement that Las Vegas has a very, very large homeless and very poor, near homeless, "transient" population. Much larger than I have seen elsewhere. I do a lot of volunteer work with the homeless, so I have a feel for this subject.

Finally, that revenue that you speak of from the NFL for TV contracts and selling licensed products is divided equally among the 32 teams. So each owner or ownership group is going to get the same share whether they play to a full or empty stadium. But the revenue generated by the fans at the stadium, including superboxes and all the food, beverages and parking, belongs individually to that owner or ownership group. So yeah, it makes a big difference if the stadium is half empty.
RonC
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January 30th, 2016 at 6:45:53 AM permalink
I have done absolutely no studying of the possibility....but it boggles my mind when an entity that thrives partially because of gambling has such a problem with...gambling.
Gabes22
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January 30th, 2016 at 9:02:48 AM permalink
As the originator of the thread, my ultimate feeling is that Las Vegas will be the new threat city in order to get the communities associated with these teams to pony up for a new stadium and upgrades and what not.
While Vegas only has 2 million people in the metro area, I have pointed out that other metro areas that have professional franchises have markets of that size or smaller like the Twin Cities, Cincy, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Columbus, Cleveland, Buffalo, New Orleans etc so I think it can be done, with it further in mind that Vegas is a destination city for a lot of people and would be a huge draw for fanbases of the visiting team.
I also think the softening of the stance on gambling is beginning by the major sports. Adam Silver has already come out and said that the NBA would support legalized sports gambling nationwide. I personally hope one of 2 things happen. 1) They get a team or 2) They build the stadium for various events and it gets put into the Super Bowl rotation about once every 5-7 years
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
AxelWolf
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January 31st, 2016 at 11:23:48 AM permalink
Can someone explain how/why the location of the team being in Las Vegas really matters regarding the gambling argument? I understand the basic theory, but in this day and age I don't think it matters to much where the team is located. Perhaps I'm missing something here?

The only downside for the team I can see would be the players parting and gambling far to often. Hell I would love to see them guys blowing all their money here in Vegas.

Maybe a higher percentage of the players will develop gambling problems and become more susceptible to corruption.

If they really believe operating in LV poses a higher risk why can't they just be more vigilant in making sure it doesn't happen? They should probably be more vigilant anyway.

I'm certain a NFL team would thrive here in Las Vegas. Because so many people love Vegas they would probably adopt them as their 2nd team.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Wizard
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January 31st, 2016 at 11:56:35 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

First lets talk population. Yeah Vegas has what, roughly a million people in the metro area of Clark County.



Clark County has a population of 2,069,681 people (source).

Compare that to a population of 104,891 for Green Bay, Wisconsin.

Yes, Vegas is a transient and apathetic city. However, in a population of two million there have got to be plenty of people to support a sports team. Add to that the people that will make a whole weekend out of coming to Vegas to support their team on the road here. Phoenix is similar and they have an NFL team. I saw the Vikings play there once and the stadium had more Viking fans than Cardinals.

Regarding gambling, the NFL is full of hypocrisy on that one as the league has strong connections to Fantasy Football sites. "Game of skill" my ...
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
kewlj
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January 31st, 2016 at 2:09:39 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Clark County has a population of 2,069,681 people (source).

Compare that to a population of 104,891 for Green Bay, Wisconsin.



I already acknowledged under-stating Las Vegas/Clark county population in my earlier post. I actually am pretty familiar with the population, I don't know why I briefly got confused. :/

But, the point that I have tried to make is that the Las Vegas population is very finite, compared to other places like Philadelphia, or even Baltimore which you are familiar with that have millions and millions more people in the surrounding areas to draw from, maybe 50 to 100 miles surrounding the city in question. It isn't just the city in questions population number.

I say take a compass and draw a circle 100 mile radius of the city and you have 5 million to as much as 10 million people to draw from for most NFL cities. Las Vegas doesn't have that. Las Vegas has a very finite number...2 million as you have corrected me and after that.....nothing......desert and some cacti and rocks and such. :)
TwoFeathersATL
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January 31st, 2016 at 2:38:26 PM permalink
It was always desert, and rocks, and cactus and stuff....
Well, until it wasn't.
Now you got Vegas!
Eventually, might be desert, and rocks, and cactus and stuff, again.
I like rocks, and feathers and bones.
Place your bets, investments wisely.
Think long term, think about your grandchildren, not your children.
Better yet, your children's grandchildren....
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
TomG
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January 31st, 2016 at 3:16:44 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I suspect there are a handful of super rich people, casino owners and such (Sheldon Adelsons and Steve Wynns types) that artificially raise that median income number here in Vegas.



I don't think that word means what you think it means (pun not intended, but noted).

It is silly to compare Las Vegas to Philadelphia when it comes to adding a professional sports franchise. Philadelphia is big enough to support four major sports teams. Las Vegas only needs to support one, and it's demographics compare favorably to cities that support only one or two teams: New Orleans, Salt Lake City, Memphis, Oklahoma City, Charlotte, Jacksonville. . .

Las Vegas absolutely could support an NFL team with a population of two million. Given the 30 to 40 million visitors per year, the city could support one very well. But I don't want them to support a team and don't think they will. For most Sunday / Monday night games Las Vegas is often the city with the third highest ratings (after the cities of the two teams playing). While Oakland is one of the worst cities to support their home team, if the Raiders moved to Las Vegas, the league would lose TV ratings, especially compared to moving to San Diego or possibly San Antonio.

To me, one block off the strip also seems like a logistical nightmare for being able to handle a 100,000 seat stadium. And no matter what anyone says, St Louis or some other place will offer public funds, and when they do that the only chance Las Vegas would ever have is to do the same.
AxelWolf
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January 31st, 2016 at 3:38:35 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj



I already acknowledged under-stating Las Vegas/Clark county population in my earlier post. I actually am pretty familiar with the population, I don't know why I briefly got confused. :/

Inaccurate statements on WOV.

KJ = briefly confused.

EB = dead wrong.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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January 31st, 2016 at 3:41:10 PM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

It was always desert, and rocks, and cactus and stuff....
Well, until it wasn't.
Now you got Vegas!
Eventually, might be desert, and rocks, and cactus and stuff, again.
I like rocks, and feathers and bones.
Place your bets, investments wisely.
Think long term, think about your grandchildren, not your children.
Better yet, your children's grandchildren....

According to some we won't be around that long due to pollution and global warming.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Boz
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January 31st, 2016 at 4:10:28 PM permalink
I have no doubt the stadium would be packed week after week with visiting team fans. Miami games usually have more visiting fans and Vegas would be more of the same. Trip planners will make a fortune setting up trips to see the (your team here) play the Raiders in Vegas.

It's only 1 event a year but a good majority of the NASCAR fans at the March Vegas race are not local. Casinos offer free tickets to good customers to get them to the race and will do the same thing for the NFL. Caesars would use their customer list offering NFL tickets are an incentive.

I see no way this would fail, if it happened. I also don't see it happening with their current stance on gambling.
Wizard
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January 31st, 2016 at 7:52:55 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I say take a compass and draw a circle 100 mile radius of the city and you have 5 million to as much as 10 million people to draw from for most NFL cities. Las Vegas doesn't have that. Las Vegas has a very finite number...2 million as you have corrected me and after that.....nothing......desert and some cacti and rocks and such. :)



Phoenix is also a city in the middle of nowhere and they can fill an NFL stadium.

Convenient for you that you chose 100 miles as the cut-off point. I was hoping to argue that Green Bay is more than 100 miles from a major city, but they are just about exactly 100 miles from Milwaukee.

Quote: kewlj

I suspect there are a handful of super rich people, casino owners and such (Sheldon Adelsons and Steve Wynns types) that artificially raise that median income number here in Vegas.



I think you're confusing the mean and the median. Adelson and Wynn would be offset by two cashiers at Walmart for purposes of calculating the median income.

Median income = The income of the person exactly at the 50th percentage point (half of the population less and half more).
Mean income = Total income divided by number of people employed.
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coilman
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January 31st, 2016 at 8:37:24 PM permalink
8 games a year to fill what 65,000 seats..... should be a piece of cake.

As somebody already said teams like Dallas, Green Bay , New England will be sold out every time . The other teams within say 4 hrs will also bring a load of fans each game.

Diehard football fans will flock to Vegas for a weekend to see their team play.... you should see Windsor everytime Green Bay plays in Detroit ...nothing but GB jerseys all over downtown , Caesars Windsor sold out. not sure if the casino provides them a shuttle to the tunnel bus that drops fans right at FORD field or not...they still have a few of those shuttle buses around,.....otherwise its 10 minute walk to the bus station...or cab it over for about $30 including the tolls

NOVEMBER +December booking of NORTHERN TEAMS playing in Vegas will attract people looking for a break from the changing weather....

If any pro team can fill the seats all season its the NFL. Short short season compared to the others

The real question remains is who will want to pony up all that cash to build the stadium that will benefit all the other casinos in town?

Look at Detroit right now building a new hockey arena ....and other buildings around it for $1.2 BILLION
http://www.freep.com/story/money/business/michigan/2016/01/31/ilitch-detroit-arena-hockey/79512570/
kewlj
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January 31st, 2016 at 9:27:19 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Phoenix is also a city in the middle of nowhere and they can fill an NFL stadium.

Convenient for you that you chose 100 miles as the cut-off point. I was hoping to argue that Green Bay is more than 100 miles from a major city, but they are just about exactly 100 miles from Milwaukee.



I didn't choose that cut 100 mile cut off just to screw your Green bay argument. Lol. I was just thinking back to my days as an Eagles season ticket guy. I know many season ticket holders where people that lived several hours outside Philadelphia, either in the middle of pa, northern Pa, or the Jersey Shore. I think many other NFL teams have that kind of larger radius "pull". I don't know if it's 100 miles, or 150 miles or maybe it's better measured in time, 2-3 hour drive. All I do know is that Las Vegas won't have that. There aren't all those small town and even smaller cities outside of Las Vegas like other areas. Just desert.

Phoenix is actually a good comparison, because they too don't have all that much in the way of small towns once you leave the Phoenix metropolitan area (Phoenix/Glendale/Scottsdale/Tempe/Mesa). But that Phoenix metropolitan area which is finite, similar to Vegas IS more than twice as big, at 4.3 million in the 2010 census.

AND, for much of there existence in Phoenix, until recently the Cardinals didn't play to full stadiums and when they did, they often relied on strong visiting team support, just like Vegas would need to. So Vegas would be along the lines of the Phoenix model, just less than half the population to start with. :/
Wizard
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February 1st, 2016 at 2:40:02 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

AND, for much of there existence in Phoenix, until recently the Cardinals didn't play to full stadiums and when they did, they often relied on strong visiting team support, just like Vegas would need to. So Vegas would be along the lines of the Phoenix model, just less than half the population to start with. :/



I would argue the half the population is offset by these facts:

1. Vegas has no other professional sports teams to compete with for fans, while Phoenix does.
2. Vegas is a stronger draw for fans of the competing teams.
3. We would be getting an existing team with a fan base while the Arizona Cardinals were created out of thin air.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ibeatyouraces
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February 1st, 2016 at 3:32:38 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

...3. We would be getting an existing team with a fan base while the Arizona Cardinals were created out of thin air.


They moved from St. Louis after 1987.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Gabes22
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February 1st, 2016 at 6:01:00 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Clark County has a population of 2,069,681 people (source).

Compare that to a population of 104,891 for Green Bay, Wisconsin.

Yes, Vegas is a transient and apathetic city. However, in a population of two million there have got to be plenty of people to support a sports team. Add to that the people that will make a whole weekend out of coming to Vegas to support their team on the road here. Phoenix is similar and they have an NFL team. I saw the Vikings play there once and the stadium had more Viking fans than Cardinals.

Regarding gambling, the NFL is full of hypocrisy on that one as the league has strong connections to Fantasy Football sites. "Game of skill" my ...



Comparing it to Green Bay is not really a valid comparison. There are things that make Green Bay unique among NFL franchises. For starter, nobody in the Green Bay Packers season ticket base has tickets to all 8 games. Until 1994 or 1995, Green Bay played some of its home games at Milwaukee County Stadium (2-2 and 1/2 hours south) in an attempt to prevent the upstart AFL (which later merged with the NFL) from planting a team there. Furthermore, the Packers draw from all around the state from places like Madison, Eau Claire, Wausau, Stevens Point and the Fox Cities region. Today, the ticketholders which had Packers tickets in GB before then get the rights to 6 home games and one of the 2 preseason games, the Milwaukee ticket holders get the 2nd and 5th home games with the other preseason game. When they first decided to play all their games in Green Bay, the Packers requested that the Milwaukee games were not night game to accommodate the larger influx of people from the Fox Cities area. But furthermore, Green Bay is what I would consider the northernmost of the Fox Cities which is roughly a 75 mile stretch of small cities which make up the region. I consider it starting at Fond du Lac in the South all the way up to Green Bay, which also consists of Oshkosh, Appleton, Neenah, Menasha, Kaukauna as well as Green Bay. While still by far the smallest media market in major professional sports, it is dealing with a lot more people than the bulk of the country thinks there are in the area.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
Gabes22
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February 1st, 2016 at 6:05:15 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

They moved from St. Louis after 1987.


Yeah, The Cardinals and the Bears are basically the only NFL charter franchises left, The Packers joined the league 1-2 years after it was founded
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
Wizard
Administrator
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February 1st, 2016 at 8:25:45 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

They moved from St. Louis after 1987.



"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ibeatyouraces
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February 1st, 2016 at 8:52:03 AM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

Yeah, The Cardinals and the Bears are basically the only NFL charter franchises left, The Packers joined the league 1-2 years after it was founded


Back then, when someone said they were a St. Louis Cardinals fans, you had to ask which sport. Baseball or football.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Rigondeaux
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February 1st, 2016 at 9:13:46 AM permalink
Vegas could sustain the team almost for sure. A lot of places could field a profitable team. Particularly with tax scams. How can you lose when part of your business is "I get handed $1 billion in tax money, just for existing?" But I think even without that they would do OK.

Of course, they want the MOST profitable team, which is another matter. I don't know how the NFL feels about many of the fans being for the road team. It seems like something they can live with, like in Arizona when they stunk, but would not actively seek out.

The gambling thing is insurmountable, though. I think the reason they are so conservative is that they are on a free roll. They get all of the benefits that come from sports betting-mainly increased interest in the games. But, as long as they go through the motions of distancing themselves from it as much as possible, they take none of the risk.

A lot of people see gambling as sleazy or even sinful and that's not so unreasonable. Gambling destroys plenty of lives. Look at all the con artists who sell NFL picks. And so on. If the NFL says, "we do everything we can to distance ourselves from that" it is hard to use it against them in, say, a political battle.

Daily fantasy companies were really smart. First they pushed that "it's not gambling" nonsense. And people actually believe or pretend to believe it. Then they offered the NFL a healthy slice of the pie. If it blows up, the NFL can say, "oops. But it wasn't gambling."

If sports betting were legalized nation wide and the NFL could run ads from William Hill and have kiosks in every stadium, they might revise their morality. Otherwise, no dice.
Gabes22
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February 1st, 2016 at 9:29:00 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Back then, when someone said they were a St. Louis Cardinals fans, you had to ask which sport. Baseball or football.


True, but wasn't that the way in New York before the Giants moved to San Francisco, hence why people still use the phrase "The New York Football Giants"
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
Gabes22
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February 1st, 2016 at 9:32:40 AM permalink
Yeah, a lot of these teams in newer major cities like Phoenix, it tends to take about a generation for the local fandom to catch up with the population. When a team moves to the area, the people who can afford to go to the games, grew up backing another team, however, the kids will be raised as Cardinals fans in Phoenix, Panthers fans in Charlotte etc, and when these people grow up and make their own money, that is when the local fan base is able to take hold and they are more readily available to weed out having 25,000 Packers, Steelers, Bears or Cowboys fans in the stands.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
kewlj
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February 1st, 2016 at 10:16:18 AM permalink
According to the local news last night, Sheldon Adleson is behind this Las Vegas push. He met with Raiders owner last week and Adleson would be paying the 220 million portion of the stadium that doesn't come from public tax dollars. I don't think he would be doing that if he wasn't getting some minority share of the team and THAT will be something the NFL balks at, because he owns casinos.

I mean just imagine, there is heavy lopsided wagering on the Las Vegas Raiders to cover and something unusual or controversial occurs at the end of the game and they don't cover. All kinds of speculation and accusations will fly. The NFL doesn't want anything like that.

The site of the stadium is also interesting. Corner of Koval and Tropicana. Right across the street from the rear of MGM. It's not really on campus as they claim, for UNLV who would also play at the stadium, but it is close. Probably three quarters of a mile from Thomas and Mack Center.
pacomartin
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February 1st, 2016 at 10:48:50 AM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

As the originator of the thread, my ultimate feeling is that Las Vegas will be the new threat city in order to get the communities associated with these teams to pony up for a new stadium and upgrades and what not.
While Vegas only has 2 million people in the metro area, I have pointed out that other metro areas that have professional franchises have markets of that size or smaller like the Twin Cities, Cincy, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Columbus, Cleveland, Buffalo, New Orleans etc so I think it can be done



OLD Rank Metropolitan Market Regions / Areas
The rank doesn't change that much year to year, but Las Vegas is up to #40. I can't cut and paste the newest rank.

1 New York: New York Jets| New York Giants
2 Los Angeles: Los Angeles Rams
3 Chicago: Chicago Bears
4 Philadelphia: Philadelphia Eagles
5 Dallas-Ft. Worth: Dallas Cowboys
6 San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose: San Francisco 49ers| Oakland Raiders
7 Boston: New England Patriots
8 Atlanta: Atlanta Falcons
9 Washington, DC: Washington Redskins
10 Houston: Houston Texans
11 Detroit: Detroit Lions
12 Phoenix: Arizona Cardinals
13 Tampa-St. Petersburg: Tampa Bay Buccaneers
14 Seattle-Tacoma: Seattle Seahawks
15 Minneapolis-St. Paul: Minnesota Vikings
16 Miami-Ft.Lauderdale : Miami Dolphins
17 Cleveland-Akron: Cleveland Browns
18 Denver: Denver Broncos
...
19 Orlando-Daytona Beach-Melbourne
20 Sacramento-Stockton-Modesto
21 St. Louis
22 Portland, OR
23 Pittsburgh: Pittsburgh Steelers
24 Charlotte, NC: Carolina Panthers
25 Indianapolis: Indianapolis Colts
26 Baltimore: Baltimore Ravens
27 Raleigh-Durham
28 San Diego: San Diego Chargers
29 Nashville: Tennessee Titans
30 Hartford-New Haven
31 Columbus, OH
32 San Antonio
33 Kansas City:Kansas City Chiefs
34 Salt Lake City
35 Milwaukee
36 Cincinnati: Cincinnati Bengals
37 Greenville-Spartanburg-Asheville-Anderson
38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce
39 Austin
40 Las Vegas <=====================
41 Grand Rapids-Kalamazoo-Battle Creek
42 Norfolk-Portsmouth-Newport News
43 Oklahoma City
44 Harrisburg-Lancaster-Lebanon-York
45 Birmingham
46 Greensboro-High Point-Winston-Salem
47 Jacksonville, FL: Jacksonville Jaguars
48 Albuquerque-Santa Fe
49 Louisville
50 Memphis
51 New Orleans: New Orleans Saints
52 Providence-New Bedford
53 Buffalo :Buffalo Bills
...
54 Wilkes Barre-Scranton
55 Fresno-Visalia
56 Little Rock-Pine Bluff
57 Albany-Schenectady-Troy
58 Richmond-Petersburg
59 Knoxville
60 Mobile-Pensacola
61 Tulsa
62 Ft. Myers-Naples
63 Lexington
64 Dayton
65 Charleston-Huntington
66 Flint-Saginaw-Bay City
67 Roanoke-Lynchburg
68 Tucson
69 Wichita-Hutchinson
70 Green Bay-Appleton: Green Bay Packers
Last edited by: pacomartin on Feb 1, 2016
Gabes22
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February 1st, 2016 at 11:43:21 AM permalink
I don't get what you are trying to prove, unless of course you are agreeing with me in pointing out that Vegas is kind of in the middle of all those cities I named and roughly the same size.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
pacomartin
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February 1st, 2016 at 11:52:58 AM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

I don't get what you are trying to prove, unless of course you are agreeing with me in pointing out that Vegas is kind of in the middle of all those cities I named and roughly the same size.



I am saying that there are over a dozen television markets that are larger than Las Vegas with no teams. Filling the stadium with visitor is one thing, but the real money maker is the television.
You can argue that Orlando has a bigger TV market plus out of town visitors. Then there is Portland or Raleigh.

I mean you can't rule out Vegas based on size. There is a new team in Jacksonville from 1995. But a relocated team would probably want to be in a bigger media market.

The teams that play in really small media markets are legacy teams. They can't be compared to a new team.
1921 Green Bay
1960 Buffalo Bills
1967 New Orleans Saints

I don't think gambling is a big thing anymore. It's just that Vegas isn't that big. I think the Chargers will go to Los Angeles as well. But I think that the Raiders will select some place other than Vegas.
Last edited by: pacomartin on Feb 1, 2016
ukaserex
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February 1st, 2016 at 12:18:33 PM permalink
Hey, I'm all for a team in Vegas. Maybe I could get air tix and game tix to Saints vs LV Raiders from my slot host. :D
"Those who have no idea what they are doing, genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
Gabes22
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February 1st, 2016 at 4:41:34 PM permalink
I am with you in the fact that Vegas won't get an NFL team. I think Vegas will be the new Los Angeles in that owners that want new stadiums will be threatened with a move to Vegas in order to get the taxpayers to be willing to pony up money to keep their beloved (insert team name here). There are issues with some of the teams you mentioned though, while a completely different market than Seattle, many Portland residents are also Seahawks fans and they have a loyal following there. The great thing about Vegas, is that while many locals are Cowboys or Cardinals fans, there really isn't an overwhelming favorite team in town, meaning that many of the locals might be ripe for the picking to become loyal followers
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
DRich
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February 1st, 2016 at 8:14:13 PM permalink
I am really starting to believe Sheldon is a Genius. First the buying of the newspaper and now the stadium.

Part of his pitch is that funds from the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority will help pay for it. Why is that brilliant? Because that will take money away from the new convention center project that is going to be built on the strip so Sheldon won't lose as much convention business.
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MrV
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May 2nd, 2016 at 9:05:28 AM permalink
Las Vegas Raiders?

Really?

It could happen.

see: Steve and Sheldon support the move
"What, me worry?"
TwoFeathersATL
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May 2nd, 2016 at 9:11:51 AM permalink
I thought everyone on here, 'cept me of course, were already Las Veges raiders?
The 'team concept' works at times.
Which means it doesn't at other times...
Go Team Raiders!
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
ThatDonGuy
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June 3rd, 2016 at 10:42:27 AM permalink
I got an E-mail from Silverton in early June asking me to take a survey about a potential Raiders move to a proposed new Vegas stadium ("Would you go to Raiders games? Would your business be interested in season tickets? Should the Raiders keep their current colors and/or logo?").

Here's a question I sent back as part of the survey: "Would you be interested in having an NFL team in Las Vegas knowing that the NFL Commissioner has the power to not only prevent Vegas (and all other Nevada, for that matter) books from taking bets on Las Vegas Raiders games, but on a Vegas-hosted Super Bowl as well?
JohnnyQ
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June 26th, 2016 at 8:02:01 AM permalink
Stop the Insanity !

$ 750 Million to be raised by increasing taxes on Hotel guests in Vegas ? ? ?

No thanks. Who benefits from the Stadium ? I suggest that "they" pay for it.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/las-vegas-stadium-proposal-could-cost-taxpayers-record--750-million-183902682.html
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
mcallister3200
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June 26th, 2016 at 8:23:16 AM permalink
I don't disagree with that, but the reality is a team is never going anywhere the public isn't paying a significant portion....the owners make a business decision and move on to a city that will. As well as threaten/hold the current city hostage 20 years later when they want a newer stadium with all the bells and whistles. That's just the reality of how it works.
RS
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June 26th, 2016 at 8:45:35 AM permalink
Would be cool to get an NFL team in LV.....just not the Raiders.
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