Can Vegas recover?

I lived in Vegas for nine years, and left about a year before the roof started to cave in. It seemed then, and it seems even more so now, that the gambling market is way overserved and that the casinos are way overbuilt. There doesn't appear to have been much of a drop in visitation, but people are staying for shorter periods of time, and they're spending less per person/day. Amazingly--TOTALLY amazingly, to me--the casinos have responded to this drop in business by tightening up the games, raising the price of EVERYTHING, and worst of all, drastically tightening comps, promos, and giveaways. As a result, employees are being laid off/fired left and right (Nevada has the nation's highest unemployment rate), people are leaving town for good, and real estate values have nosedived. Ironically, the drop in home value may be keeping some people in Vegas--either they can't sell at a loss, or don't want to.

I actually see half or more of the Vegas casinos shutting down within two years, given all the bankruptcies, and the stark fact that we won't be out of the Obama depression until 2015--by the gummint's own admission. Any faltering recovery will be torpedoed by the fact that many of Vegas' skilled casino workers have already left--there will soon no longer be any trained workforce to staff all those now-empty blackjack tables and make all the beds in those now-empty rooms.

I think the final nail in the coffin will be that the people who moved to Vegas during the boom have gradually become aware that it's a miserably hot, crowded, societally bankrupt, uncultured, fascist government cesspool where nothing useful gets created or accomplished--people get drunk and lose their money, lather, rinse repeat. Whee.

So I think that Vegas is circling the drain, and it will soon be half the size (population-wise) that it was during the boom years. Unemployment there will be 25-30%, and home values will drop another 10-15% before stabilizing. They will richly deserve their own end, as only carefully constructed stupidity, lovingly applied over a period of years, could have ruined the world's biggest cash cow (and it was NOT the recession that killed it--it was the casinos' reaction to it).

Quote: mkl654321

I lived in Vegas for nine years, and left about a year before the roof started to cave in. It seemed then, and it seems even more so now, that the gambling market is way overserved and that the casinos are way overbuilt. There doesn't appear to have been much of a drop in visitation, but people are staying for shorter periods of time, and they're spending less per person/day. Amazingly--TOTALLY amazingly, to me--the casinos have responded to this drop in business by tightening up the games, raising the price of EVERYTHING, and worst of all, drastically tightening comps, promos, and giveaways. As a result, employees are being laid off/fired left and right (Nevada has the nation's highest unemployment rate), people are leaving town for good, and real estate values have nosedived. Ironically, the drop in home value may be keeping some people in Vegas--either they can't sell at a loss, or don't want to.

I actually see half or more of the Vegas casinos shutting down within two years, given all the bankruptcies, and the stark fact that we won't be out of the Obama depression until 2015--by the gummint's own admission. Any faltering recovery will be torpedoed by the fact that many of Vegas' skilled casino workers have already left--there will soon no longer be any trained workforce to staff all those now-empty blackjack tables and make all the beds in those now-empty rooms.

I think the final nail in the coffin will be that the people who moved to Vegas during the boom have gradually become aware that it's a miserably hot, crowded, societally bankrupt, uncultured, fascist government cesspool where nothing useful gets created or accomplished--people get drunk and lose their money, lather, rinse repeat. Whee.

So I think that Vegas is circling the drain, and it will soon be half the size (population-wise) that it was during the boom years. Unemployment there will be 25-30%, and home values will drop another 10-15% before stabilizing. They will richly deserve their own end, as only carefully constructed stupidity, lovingly applied over a period of years, could have ruined the world's biggest cash cow (and it was NOT the recession that killed it--it was the casinos' reaction to it).

I think your predictions are a little dire and over the top. Yeah, Vegas is not going to jump right back up to the peak, but its not going to go down the drain either. Half the casinos closing? No way. Worst thing that happens to casinos - generally - is they file BK, reorganize their debt, and continue operating. The debt burden is the thing that is suffocating the casinos, not their operational performances.

The Western world runs on caffeine and attitude. If it wants to come back, it will.

This is humorous and as with all humor there is an element of truth to it.

Get drunk, lose money rinse and repeat. Yeah well no need to rinse unless its summertime.

Overbuilt and burdened by debt so they become LESS welcoming to the players! Yes, typical backwards actions.

Competition may force a re-structuring of the value of a casino and this may affect those balance sheets and pre-arranged bankruptcy workout plans, but Vegas will recover after all those bookkeeping adjustments. Just take some time.

I've some advice for all of you, Paco included: quit living in the present.

Sure, things are bad now, and the Democrats are doing their best to make things worse, and perhaps the casinos haven't handled things the best way possible (though I dispute the assertion they've raised prices on everything), but that doesn't men things will stay bad.

Things may get worse yet, surely, ask New Yorkers who remember the 70s and 80s, but eventually they will improve. If there is excess capacity, then projects like Echelon and others will languish for a long time. Some casinos may scale back or even close down.

In particular the north end of the Strip may die. Given the gaps around the Sahara, Circus-Circus and Riviera, that's emminently possible. If that part of town dies, it will be replaced by something else. It's possible MGM will go broke or will have to downsize, too.

Las Vegas is just too big to die. Small towns die now and then, but big cities can survive catastrophes, see New Orleans.

I thought there was a ray of hope when Aria opened up. The VP was a good deal (the best on the strip IMO), and the slots were set for decent returns (you can tell by the configuration on the Virtual Reels). Maybe decent competition for players would jolt the strip back into reality.

That appears to have ended. I just visited Aria, and the Virtual Reels on my favorite "fun" slots are now set to low payback (same as Bellagio), and 6/5 JorB VP has made its ugly appearance on the main floor.

Haven't the casinos learned that you don't increase your traffic and action by tightening down the thumbscrews on the players that choose to frequent your establishment? Aria now seems to be leading the charge into the abyss.

I agree with scotty81. I feel the big resorts cater to tourists rather than gamblers, and most everything is overpriced in my opinion. I'm from the midwest, so my earnings are significantly less than east and west coasters. $100 per person meals are out of my reach. However, I am a $1,000 gambler (I buy in for a $1,000 at the craps table, and usually have a $3,000 total bankroll), and I get no comps at all in Las Vegas. At the local casino I can at least get free rooms. I don't enjoy Vegas as much as I used to because there are no good blackjack games at low minimums, and virtually all the strip casinos limit odds on craps to 3-4-5x. I long for the days when gamblers were welcomed with free rooms, cheap food and good entertainment.

Quote: Headlock

I long for the days when gamblers were welcomed with free rooms, cheap food and good entertainment.

Have you tried Downtown and the Boulder Strip?

I don't know about BJ, but in craps you get 20x odds at Main Street Station and Sam's Town, and 100x odds at the Eastside Cannery.

As for cheap food, the Harrah's 7 buffets deal is great. If you time it right you can get 4 meals out of every pass. that's about $10 per buffet, including the ones at Rio, Paris and PH.

Try Mandalay Bay for blackjack.I played there the week leading up to July 4th and there were plenty of $10 minimum tables with a .28% H.A.They didn't go to $15 until 6PM or 7PM.

Quote: Nareed

I've some advice for all of you, Paco included: quit living in the present. Las Vegas is just too big to die. Small towns die now and then, but big cities can survive catastrophes, see New Orleans.

Well I disagree that Las Vegas is just too big too die. Detroit has been dying off for almost 60 years and is down to half of it's peak size. I believe that St. Louis was once the fourth largest city in the country (if we regard Brooklyn and Manhattan to be one city) and is now a shell of it's former glory.

But I am not apocalyptic about Las Vegas. I don't see the fountains turned off. However, if the city wants to do more than languish it will have to have transporation to Southern California. If it was roughly equal amounts of effort to go the 100 miles from Disneyworld to San Diego as it was to go the 250 miles from Disneyworld to Las Vegas then the whole region will be seen as a single destination to foreign travellers.

Agreed. Too bad that joke of a high-speed rail will never do it. Victorville? Seriously?

Quote: ruascott

Agreed. Too bad that joke of a high-speed rail will never do it. Victorville? Seriously?

Metrolink should extend the Inland Empire-Orange County line & the San Berardino line to Victorville.

Quote: pacomartin

then the whole region will be seen as a single destination to foreign travelers.

Why would anyone want a foreign traveler?

3x4x5x Odds is just about 5x. About fifty percent of the town is at this level. Any dice dealer in town knows that people who come up to the table complaining about 5x being an insufficient odds offering is likely to be a player who rarely takes odds at all and when he does take odds usually does it at about the 2x level.

Train service? I bet even the people who live in Victorville will find train service slow and the parking inconvenient.

The train won't matter one iota even if it IS built, because it won't be a sufficiently attractive alternative to driving. When you get off the hypothetical train, you're in downtown Vegas--now what? You'll need to rent a car. Not to mention that to get to the train terminal back in L.A., you had to use public transportation (ecch), or pay for parking. And the odds are against that departure station being anywhere near you. Plus, the fare will have to be exorbitant to pay for the astronomical cost of building the damn thing in the first place. Also, it would only serve a SINGLE market--Southern California. Even a 50% increase in Southern CA visitation--something I seriously doubt that the train would ever have the capacity to accomplish--would only be about a 5% increase in total visitor count. Not worth the money, except, of course, if it's somebody else's (the taxpayers'!) money

The high speed rail link from London to Paris makes it an open-jaw airline ticket increasingly attractive. You fly into either London or Paris and return from the other city. After sightseeing in one city you take the train to the other city in as fast as 2.25 hours.

A good train link could make it possible to have an open jaw link between Vegas and Los Angeles (possibly through Ontario airport instead of LAX).

British and French visitors are increasingly important to Las Vegas. In particular British are coming in record numbers.

Deleted

IMHO, another big factor is going to be Airfare pricing, which is way
up since last year. Couple that WITH nearly every other state adding
casino gambling, and I think that LV may have reached its peak.

The silver lining is probably that this will lead to more competition in
LV, so more hotel promo's.

Quote: JohnnyQ

IMHO, another big factor is going to be Airfare pricing, which is way
up since last year. Couple that WITH nearly every other state adding
casino gambling, and I think that LV may have reached its peak.

The silver lining is probably that this will lead to more competition in
LV, so more hotel promo's.

I put this question to a poll a few months. The question was On October 2007 Nevada reported a peak running 12 month total of $13 billion. For 30 monthly reports since that time the total has been lower so that it now stands at $10.4 billion. Only one person out of 16 said that Nevada had peaked, but the majority thought that it would take over three years to reacquire the level in October 2007.

Recovery is what Las Vegas does best. I agree that it will take some time, and that it MAY have peaked (not taking a stance on that just yet), but Las Vegas is not going to become a ghost town at all. The allure of Vegas is still there, and even though the games really suck out there and the comps are stingy, there are very few places where all your casinos are within walking distance (Tunica has a few possibly Atlantic City).

There will be some more scaling back, no doubt. Some casinos may close and the strip may physically shrink for the first time. But Las Vegas will emerge as a destination and will be fine in the long run.

Quote: Tiltpoul

Some casinos may close and the strip may physically shrink for the first time. But Las Vegas will emerge as a destination and will be fine in the long run.

The ability of the Riviera to keep open seems to indicate that physically shutting down many casinos is very unlikely.

Reno has been struggling with competition for much longer than the strip, but they managed to peak around June 2006 (as opposed to October 2007).

I think the question is not will Vegas vanish, but will it ever grow again.

Perhaps what Vegas needs is something spectacular. I mean, spectacular by Las Vegas standards.

How about a hotel with a Nordic theme, or Viking theme, or both, with the world's biggest indoors ski slope in the world. Skiing in the desert year round, think about it.

Quote: Nareed

Perhaps what Vegas needs is something spectacular. I mean, spectacular by Las Vegas standards.

How about a hotel with a Nordic theme, or Viking theme, or both, with the world's biggest indoors ski slope in the world. Skiing in the desert year round, think about it.

Ski Dubai offers skiing in the desert year round. Although that is in a shopping mall, not a casino.

None of us have a crystal ball to know whether Vegas can or cannot recover. The US economy has been languishing now for years despite the fact that the US government has thrown trillions at the issue to try to reboot.

The business model for Vegas is a mix of gaming and non-gaming revenue. The strip is controlled by corporations with interests through the world, so a bad performance in Vegas can be offset by other profitable operations such as Macau. I think it will take a long time for these corporations with central operations in Vegas to remove their core business, especially when it has been profitable in the past.

That said, we can agree or disagree with the business model that the vegas properties have taken. Maybe they've come to learn that cheap hotel rooms don't fill them with gamblers and that the model no longer works. For MGM for example, they have a number of properties at various levels of luxury up and down the strip, so they know what mix of hotel room price and promotions gives them the best performance for the corporation -- it may be still a loss for them overall, but it's the least loss possible.

It apparently isn't a matter of visitation per se, as in "filling the hotel rooms"--factoring in the dramatic overbuilding of the last several years, occupancies are relatively high--but of filling them productively. The games everywhere in Vegas, but particularly on the Strip, have been tightened so much that they squeak: blackjack with eight times the former house edge, video poker with twenty times the former house edge, a 25% increase across the board in poker game rakes (Harrah's properties), etc. etc. etc. What has been lost is the delicate balance between shearing the sheep and skinning them alive. High table limits and horrible rules means that the customer gets crushed quickly and brutally. This actually DECREASES gaming revenue as the player who gets pounded through the floor, losing $800 in one evening's session, may just put that other $1200 back in his pocket and go see a show or have dinner the following night. Give that guy a fighting chance, hold his losses to $200, and he'll be back at the tables tomorrow.

What amazes me about all this is that any one Strip casino, operating independently, could loosen up all its games to, say, 1995 level, and be buried with customers. No doubt that's what Harrah's Quest to Buy the Entire Strip was designed to prevent. Also, there is probably honor among thieves--I'm sure there is "subtle persuasion" among the casinos not to have anyone break away from the ranks.

Quote: Nareed

Perhaps what Vegas needs is something spectacular. I mean, spectacular by Las Vegas standards.

I don't know if it could be done, but I'd like to see them build a 10 or 20 story hotel underground. With a big open forum area. Probably have to wall it off with glass to prevent the potential for base jumpers and suicides.

Quote: Nareed

Perhaps what Vegas needs is something spectacular.
How about a hotel with a Nordic theme, or Viking theme, or both, with the world's biggest indoors ski slope.

Sounds great, but Steve Wynn complains about the fact that he built great attractions that draw visitors and other casinos skim his customer base by dangling cheaper rooms and cheaper buffets in front of those who came to see the fountains or the volcano.

Skiing, rock climbing, golf? They would all be good "draws" but the trick is to get the skier off the slopes and into the casino.

I like that upthread post that said it was more akin to skinning the sheep than to merely shearing its fleece off. Yet that seems to be how Harrah's succeeds. Ignorant drunken tourists feeding coins into a slot machine after being brainwashed to think "its entertainment, the casino is going to win anyway".

Does anyone know why that Waterworld thing ever closed? Would an indoor ski slope survive only if it were linked to a casino? With all the bankers breathing down the necks of the casinos would anyone ever advance funds for a ski lift?

They built City Center and nobody came. Perhaps a ski slope would work only if it was naked skiing and all skiers slid off the ski slope into a hot pool filled with naked revelers, gin and pheremones.

Quote: Nareed

How about a hotel with a Nordic theme, or Viking theme, or both, with the world's biggest indoors ski slope in the world. Skiing in the desert year round, think about it.

I believe that at one point the "Moon Resort" that is now proposed for the Bahama's, (and has been for some time but doesn't appear to be going anywhere), was going to be located in Las Vegas.

If you go to Moon World Resort and select "tour" and then "Planet Ice and Space Odyssey Tower" you can see renderings and images of a model they did of their ski area. I'm kind of thinking that trying to maintain snow and ice within a large glass dome in the desert, (or the Caribbean), isn't the brightest of ideas. At least Ski Dubai has a 5' thick insulated roof.

Unfortunately an even more spectacular tourist attraction is not going to make the city. You can't have a city with a single source of income. Every industry has its ups and downs.

Phoenix has four companies that are about as big or bigger than Harrah's Entertainment. All major corporations are in different industries. The city has more diversification so that it is slightly better able to handle a downturn. Gaming cannot support the growth. It simply doesn't produce enough jobs.

Petsmart produces as much revenue as MGM Resorts, and it doesn't lose money at a spectacular rate.
Republic Services waste management produces as much revenue as Harrah's.

Fortune 1000	Corporation	Revenue	Profit
#264	Harrah's Entertainment	$8,907.4	$827.6
#360	MGM Resorts	$5,978.6	-$1,291.7
#456	Las Vegas Sands	$4,563.1	-$354.5
#634	Wynn Resorts	$3,045.6	$20.7
#962	Boyd Gaming	$1,641.0	$4.2

Phoenix & Maricopa County, AZ

Fortune 500	Corporation	Revenue	Description
#142	Avnet	$16,229.9	(world's largest franchised distributor of electronic components)
#154	Freeport-McMoRan Copper & Gold	$15,040.0	(world's lowest-cost copper producer)
#222	US Airways Group	$10,458.0	(airline)
#278	Republic Services	$8,199.1	(waste management)
#393	PetSmart	$5,336.4	(pet care)

This reporting is the last month of the fiscal year (which ends on June 30)

The Fiscal Year 2010 numbers resemble those of FY05 for the Vegas strip, and FY04 for the state of Nevada.

$5,620,463,390 FY10 Strip
$5,578,873,889 FY05

$10,327,446,480 FY10 State of Nevada
$10,109,953,867 FY04

Assume you could turn back the hands of time and Steve had not built the Wynn or the Encore, Sheldon had not constructed the Palazzo, Jim had not built City Center and Donald had not built Trump International. Assume MGM hadn't bought out Mandalay Bay Inc. or they had not built the condo-hotels like Palms Place or Trump Tower or the condominiums like Allure. Assume Goldman Sachs hadn't bough American Casino Enterprises (Stratosphere) for $1.3 billion or Harrah's and Station Casinos hadn't gone private for so much money. Assume Boyd Corporation had not torn down the Stardust or El-Ad Group had not torn down the New Frontier.

If somehow you could undo all of that, then in theory everyone would still be profitable.

Quote: pacomartin

If somehow you could undo all of that, then in theory everyone would still be profitable.

It's hard to say. The definition of "profitability" is something different from "cash flow" or "debt service". Properties built recently still have to amortize their building and start-up costs; an established property like, say, the Mirage is now in a strictly cash-flow mode, with largely fixed operating expenses. What has crushed Stations, almost crushed Harrah's, and is crippling the CityCenter megaprojects is the assumption that cash flow from existing projects could be used to finance new boondoggles, even if those new projects were slow to make money. Like any major endeavor based on a shaky assumption, the boom has collapsed like a house of cards (or of condos).

What hurts them is that this strategy was time-dependent. The longer it takes for the new properties to become profitable (Aliante Station is an albatross. Aria OPENED selling rooms at a 60% discount.), the heavier the debt burden becomes. It's like a boat trying to reach shore before it sinks from a hole in the bottom, and suddenly a headwind comes up.

Of course, the casinos blame the recession for their failures, not the shortsightedness and greed that drove them to extend themselves so far over the brink.

Regarding the various replies to my comment on the indoor ski slope:

During idle times sometimes I day dream about hypothetical Vegas hotels. One idea was the ski slope attached to a Nordic/Viking themed hotel. I've also got a much more detailed notion for a science fiction themed hotel with an attached amusement park (not necessarily for Vegas), but that requires using copyrighted material. The centerpiece would be half of a gigantic tree trunk with the tuft bent 90 degrees to one side. There would be a shopping area on top.

Make the tree big enough, and the park would fit inside. If you're satisfied with only four attractions, it can be done just like that (the Star Gate Adventure, the Star Trek Experience (finally!), the Integral Tree Ride and the Eternity Simulator)

Of course it won't ever happne, and would probably go broke if it did happen.

Right now any entrepeneur who would dare approach a bank for financning new construction in Vegas, would be thrown out faster than the speed of light. Any who'd issue stock or try to sell stock or bonds to finance new Vegas contruction, well, if I were the Feds I'd suspect fraud (only half joking)

I'd love a Viking themed casino! They could serve mead and hire buxom blonde swedish women as cocktail servers! They could name their ultralounge 'Valhalla'. They could pipe in "Ride of the Valkyries" as the background music. (I recommend the Bugs Bunny version: 'Kill da Wabbit, Kill da Wabbit'!)

There is an indoor skiing place in Shanghai. I think the idea works in some locations, mainly hot ones that are not close to anywhere with legitimate skiing. That is not Las Vegas. It is an hour way from Ski Las Vegas in the winter, not to mention outstanding skiing is a one hour flight away in Park City and Lake Tahoe. I think indoor skiing might go over better in somewhere in the center of the country, like Houston.

I do think that Vegas desperately needs another water park. As the father of three kids, there is not much for kids to do in this town. For a city of 1.5 million, that is pretty sad. No respectable miniature golf course, zoo, professional sports, or kids' museums either. In my opinion, Las Vegas needs more amenities that other cities of its size have, not more gimmicks.

Quote: Toes14

I'd love a Viking themed casino! They could serve mead and hire buxom blonde swedish women as cocktail servers! They could name their ultralounge 'Valhalla'. They could pipe in "Ride of the Valkyries" as the background music. (I recommend the Bugs Bunny version: 'Kill da Wabbit, Kill da Wabbit'!)

I like it! I would add: every night, costumed raiders would descend on a randomly chosen hotel floor, plunder and loot all the guest rooms, and (of course) carry off all the women. Those on the selected floor would be given a 2-for-1 buffet coupon. Also, your dealer, if you got a blackjack or won a double down, would heft a battleaxe and split the table in two.

Quote: Wizard

There is an indoor skiing place in Shanghai. I think the idea works in some locations, mainly hot ones that are not close to anywhere with legitimate skiing. That is not Las Vegas. It is an hour way from Ski Las Vegas in the winter, not to mention outstanding skiing is a one hour flight away in Park City and Lake Tahoe. I think indoor skiing might go over better in somewhere in the center of the country, like Houston.

I do think that Vegas desperately needs another water park. As the father of three kids, there is not much for kids to do in this town. For a city of 1.5 million, that is pretty sad. No respectable miniature golf course, zoo, professional sports, or kids' museums either. In my opinion, Las Vegas needs more amenities that other cities of its size have, not more gimmicks.

I'd love indoor skiing within access of my city, San Antonio.

Remember rock climbing walls... indoor rock climbing did fairly well for awhile. Some gyms built walls, some places were solely indoor rock climbing and soon endless walls appeared. Recreation when you wanted it and no great trek involved to get it.

I don't ski but other places are fairly nearby. Of course that is one of the complaints about the Mesquite casinos about eighty miles north of Vegas. The casinos never had tie-ins with events in the area so as to snag the motorists who were driving by. Not even some sort of "bring your white water rafting tickets in and get some free slot play".

Casinos often provide day care but never for more than three hours.

I don't know if a waterpark in Vegas would mean increased gambling but it would certainly get traffic.

It is in my opinion that ironically Vegas may be too hot for a water park! If I had kids I would not want them baking in 110 degree weather. Don't most people avoid being outside when it is extra hot in Vegas?

Quote: Wizard

I do think that Vegas desperately needs another water park. As the father of three kids, there is not much for kids to do in this town. For a city of 1.5 million, that is pretty sad. No respectable miniature golf course, zoo, professional sports, or kids' museums either. In my opinion, Las Vegas needs more amenities that other cities of its size have, not more gimmicks.

Wet'N Wild Phoenix just opened last summer. It's just as hot in Phoenix as it is in Vegas. Children can be protected against sunburn and every single ride doesn't have to be directly in the sun.

Indoor skiing is probably harder than indoor surfing. You can mechanically develop a wave much easier than you can develop a mountain.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

It is in my opinion that ironically Vegas may be too hot for a water park! If I had kids I would not want them baking in 110 degree weather. Don't most people avoid being outside when it is extra hot in Vegas?

The Vegas Wet-n-Wild never seemed to suffer from it being too hot. The lines were shaded, which is where most of the time is spent. There is also no shortage of sunscreen for those who wanted to just splash around the pools. My wife would make sure we were all covered head to toe, with SPF 50 at least.

Quote: pacomartin

Indoor skiing is probably harder than indoor surfing. You can mechanically develop a wave much easier than you can develop a mountain.

I would imagine a wave agitator would be simple to construct and operate, even if the surfers got tired of such perfectly timed waves. I understand however that artificial snow sprayed on outdoor ski slopes is often non-potable. Once constructed, the ski slope would last but since its shape would not really change skiers might get tired of skiing it.

Anyway, if they've opened one in Phoenix but it failed years ago in Vegas, somebody must think the idea is a good one.

There are alot of bars in Vegas that are unaffiliated with a casino. There are alot of restaurants that are unaffiliated with a casino. It may be that casinos should simply obtain discounts for their employees so that the children of dealers have some alternatives. After seeing how that works out, the casinos could start comping locals to WetnWild or the equivalent.

Quote: Wizard

The Vegas Wet-n-Wild never seemed to suffer from it being too hot. The lines were shaded, which is where most of the time is spent. There is also no shortage of sunscreen for those who wanted to just splash around the pools. My wife would make sure we were all covered head to toe, with SPF 50 at least.

Have you ever been to Orlando? Same problem, except humidity is high and it rains often. Yet the place is packed with theme parks, water parks and assorted attractions. I'd call Orlando a family-oriented version of Las Vegas. It's got theme parks rather than casinos, themed hotels, lots of shopping and dining options, and it's largely controlled by a handful of corporations. Add some nightly shows and the analogy is complete.

Anyway, Wizard, your take on the Vegas issue is substantially different from mine, and I dare say from most other people in the forum. Living in Vegas is very different from visitng Vegas. I would never give any thought to the lack of things such as water parks or other places to take the kids because a) I don't have kids and 2) if I had children I wouldn't take them to Vegas.

Quote: Wizard

The Vegas Wet-n-Wild never seemed to suffer from it being too hot. The lines were shaded, which is where most of the time is spent. There is also no shortage of sunscreen for those who wanted to just splash around the pools. My wife would make sure we were all covered head to toe, with SPF 50 at least.

I was amazed when it was shut down--it seemed like such a natural complement to everything else Vegas had, especially considering the surface-of-Venus weather in the summer. It could also be open from April to October, which would make it potentially more profitable than other similar water parks. But the powers that wuz decided that THERE WAS A SHORTAGE OF CASINOS, so the park had to be torn down to make way for another one (not that that land has been used for anything since, if memory serves).

Quote: mkl654321

I was amazed when it was shut down--it seemed like such a natural complement to everything else Vegas had, especially considering the surface-of-Venus weather in the summer. It could also be open from April to October, which would make it potentially more profitable than other similar water parks. But the powers that wuz decided that THERE WAS A SHORTAGE OF CASINOS, so the park had to be torn down to make way for another one (not that that land has been used for anything since, if memory serves).

The land is currently being proposed as a potential site for the Silver State Arena.


The Wet ’n Wild, billed as an “aquatic Disneyland” when it opened in 1985, and it left a void in the lives of sunburn-seeking Las Vegans when it shut down in 2004. Since the stadium is unlikely to be built, it seems as if the park was torn down for nothing.

Quote: mkl654321

I was amazed when it was shut down--it seemed like such a natural complement to everything else Vegas had, especially considering the surface-of-Venus weather in the summer.

Venus doesn't get hotter in the summer. The thick atmosphere pretty much guarantees constant temperatures.

Quote:

It could also be open from April to October, which would make it potentially more profitable than other similar water parks. But the powers that wuz decided that THERE WAS A SHORTAGE OF CASINOS, so the park had to be torn down to make way for another one (not that that land has been used for anything since, if memory serves).

In this case you're saying the owners of the water park conspired to sell their property because....?

Actually a seasonal attraction on the Strip won't make as much money as a perennial one. I do keep forgetting Vegas can be quite cold, too, and thus seasonality applies to some activities. So maybe closing down a water park for 1/3 of the year simply cost too much. In places like Florida, they can be open year round.

Perhaps an indoor water park? But then you'd miss the sun when it's nice out.

Quote: Nareed

maybe closing down a water park for 1/3 of the year simply cost too much. In places like Florida, they can be open year round.

Closing for more than four months a year does not seem to hurt greatly water parks in more temperate climes like the Mid-Atlantic.

A glass domed roof with soap bubbles for temperature and shade control?
A movable roof?

Seasonality?
Heck, even ski resorts can become non-season profitable with cooking classes, local artists, etc.
Ice-skating rink? Teen arcades? Roller skating? Dance venue? ... there would be ways to make off-season money.

My main question is would the casinos ever "toke" the water park?

Since all major Strip projects need to be outrageous in some form, I'd suggest two alternatives:

1) An indoor water park, with a retractable dome for the nice times of year.

2) A convertible water/ice park. Pools, slides and such in the warm months; skating rinks and sledding at other times (can be indoors, too, which would help for the winter mode).

Number 2 isn't too outrageous. For the past three years the city government has been putting up makeshift ice rinks and some kind of sledding tracks in Mexico City from December through February, fully outdoors.

The City needs to take advantage of its numerous inexpensive hotel rooms and good connections to all major cities. It needs to expand beyond simple tourism and conventions. It could be a home for think tanks that don't need to be in Washington DC. It could be a good place for educational institutions.

*[[Acton Institute]]
*[[Alexis de Tocqueville Institution]]
*[[Allegheny Institute for Public Policy]]
*[[American Civil Rights Union]]
*[[American Consumer Institute]]
*[[American Enterprise Institute]]
*[[American Foreign Policy Council]]
*[[American Institute for Economic Research]]
*[[American Iranian Council]]
*[[American Israel Public Affairs Committee]]
*[[Analysis Group]]
*[[Askew Institute on Politics and Society]]
*[[Aspen Institute]]
*[[Atlantic Council of the United States]]
*[[Atlas Economic Research Foundation]]
*[[Battelle Memorial Institute]]
*[[Bradley Foundation]]
*[[Brookings Institution]]
*[[Carnegie Endowment for International Peace]]
*[[Cascade Policy Institute]]
*[[Cato Institute]]
*[[Center for American Progress]]
*[[Center for an Urban Future]]
*[[Center for Economic and Policy Research]]
*[[Center for Ethical Solutions]]
*[[Center for Global Development]]
*[[Center for Governmental Studies]]
*[[Center for Immigration Studies]]
*[[Center for International Policy]]
*[[Center for Media and Democracy]]
*[[Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement]]
*[[Center for Public Integrity]]
*[[Center for Security Policy]]
*[[Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments]]
*[[Center for Strategic and International Studies]]
*[[Center on Budget and Policy Priorities]]
*[[Claremont Institute]]
*[[Committee for Economic Development]]
*[[Committee on the Present Danger]]
*[[Competitive Enterprise Institute]]
*[[Constitution Project]]
*[[Corporation for Enterprise Development]]
*[[Council on Foreign Relations]]
*[[Demos (U.S. think tank)|Demos]]
*[[Discovery Institute]]
*[[Economic Opportunity Institute]]
*[[Economic Policy Institute]]
*[[Economic Research Institute]]
*[[Employment Policies Institute]]
*[[Freund Group|Freund Scholarly Research Group]]
*[[Foreign Policy Research Institute]]
*[[Foundation for Economic Education]]
*[[Foundation for Excellence in Education]]
*[[Foundation for Rational Economics and Education]]
*[[Fusion Energy Foundation]]
*[[General Electric EdgeLab]]
*[[Global Development and Environment Institute]]
*[[Global Financial Integrity]]
*[[Global Trade Watch]]
*[[Goldwater Institute]]
*[[Heartland Institute]]
*[[Henry L. Stimson Center]]
*[[Heritage Foundation]]
*[[Hoover Institution]]
*[[Hudson Institute]]
*[[India, China & America Institute]]
*[[Independence Institute]]
*[[The Independent Institute]]
*[[Information Policy Institute]]
*[[Information Technology and Innovation Foundation]]
*[[Institute for Collaborative Engagement]]
*[[Institute for Policy Studies]]
*[[International Center for Research on Women]]
*[[The James Madison Institute|James Madison Institute]]
*[[The Jamestown Foundation|Jamestown Foundation]]
*[[The John S. Watson Institute for Public Policy|John S. Watson Institute for Public Policy]]
*[[Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies]]
*[[Justice Research Association]]
*[[Keck Institute for Space Studies]]
*[[Ludwig von Mises Institute]]
*[[Mackinac Center for Public Policy]]
*[[Manhattan Institute]]
*[[Mercatus Center]] at George Mason University
*[[Middle East Forum]]
*[[Migration Policy Institute]]
*[[Milken Institute]]
*[[MITRE]]
*[[National Bureau of Asian Research]]
*[[National Bureau of Economic Research]]
*[[National Center for Policy Analysis]]
*[[National Endowment for Democracy]]
*[[New America Foundation]]
*[[New Democrat Network]]
*[[New England Complex Systems Institute]] (NECSI)
*[[New Teacher Center]]
*[[Pacific Institute]]
*[[Pacific Research Institute]]
*[[Peterson Institute]]
*[[Phoenix Group]]
*[[Pioneer Institute]]
*[[Policy Matters Ohio]]
*[[Political and Economic Research Council]] (PERC)
*[[Progress and Freedom Foundation]]
*[[Progressive Policy Institute]]
*[[Project for the New American Century]]
*[[Public Citizen]]
*[[RAND Corporation]]
*[[Reason Foundation]]
*[[Reform Institute]]
*[[Research Triangle Institute]]
*[[Resources for the Future]]
*[[Ripon Society]]
*[[Rockridge Institute]]
*[[Rocky Mountain Institute]]
*[[Roosevelt Institution]]
*[[Santa Fe Institute]]
*[[Show-Me Institute]]
*[[Strategic Studies Institute]]
*[[Tax Foundation]]
*[[Tellus Institute]]
*[[Urban Institute]]
*[[U.S. Institute of Peace]]
*[[Washington Institute for Near East Policy]]
*[[W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research]]
*[[WestEd]]
*[[Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars]]
*[[World Policy Institute]]
*[[Xerox PARC]]

Quote: Nareed

In this case you're saying the owners of the water park conspired to sell their property because....?

Actually a seasonal attraction on the Strip won't make as much money as a perennial one. I do keep forgetting Vegas can be quite cold, too, and thus seasonality applies to some activities. So maybe closing down a water park for 1/3 of the year simply cost too much. In places like Florida, they can be open year round.

Perhaps an indoor water park? But then you'd miss the sun when it's nice out.

Well, other Wet N' Wilds, in parts of the country that have less insane climates, and shorter summers, seem to be doing just fine. Those parks lie idle for many more months than the Vegas park did (although they wouldn't open until the second or third week of May, which I thought was completely nuts, since by then the yearly maximum temperature for OTHER Wet N' Wilds in other cities had already been exceeded).

I also doubt that the vacant lot in that location is making any more money than the Wet N' Wild did, even though the WNW was "seasonal". The rumors I heard was that there was going to be a beeg new "theme" casino built on that site and the site of the old El Ratso, and one idea being tossed about was "San Francisco". Not a bad idea---blow fog in there 24/7 to cool people off, hire lots of gay dealers, serve Rice-a-Roni and sourdough bread in the buffet, have a little cable car running around the perimeter of the property for people to ride...

If The Plan was to build a megacasino there, that would explain WNW's hasty exit, as they would have been "persuaded" to sell one way or the other.

I would think a water park somewhere in the Vegas city limits would still be a good idea if some investors got the inclination to do one. Maybe they don't need to necessarily put it on potentially high value property though.