If there were no tips, what would be a fair LV dealer wage?

" 50% percent of dealers are not great, and 50% are very fine, " I think the industry standard is more like 20% are very fine.

I believe you are being too generous in evaluating your fellow dealers. I might even put you in the top 10%. And I do not
give out high scores easily !

Quote: buzzpaff

" 50% percent of dealers are not great, and 50% are very fine, "

Whenever HALF of anything is called "very fine", that is a kind of an immediate signal, that the standard of evaluation is held way too low.

Quote: weaselman

Whenever HALF of anything is called "very fine", that is a kind of an immediate signal, that the standard of evaluation is held way too low.

No, it isn't.
Believe me, the bottom 70% who enter dealing are out in a year:
- most cannot tolerate the maniacal strictness that pit crew attendance requires of its workers, a "zero tolerance, zero excuses" policy.
- many can't tolerate a non-stop barrage of people, many of whom are pushy, rude, demaning, etc, and quickly throw in the towel.
- many can't pick up and nail down the procedures, the quick mental math, pit policies and protocols.

I wasn't talking about about the bottom half who enter INTO dealers' school before real-world attrition.

I was talking about the bottom half who had:
- passed dealer's school;
- passed auditions;
- passed background and fingerprint checks;
- passed people tests day in and day out;
- passed interacting with both the demanding bosses and sometimes catty fellow dealers;
- passed "strict as hell no excuses" attendance requirements;
- etc.

And a lot of them are "on the bubble," one or two write-ups from being shown the door. A lot of places had called up retired good dealers asking them to come back for a while.
By the time you're on a table dealing with a dealer of two years plus experience, a lot of the dregs have long since fallen by the wayside.

Quote: buzzpaff

" 50% percent of dealers are not great, and 50% are very fine, " I think the industry standard is more like 20% are very fine.

I believe you are being too generous in evaluating your fellow dealers. I might even put you in the top 10%. And I do not
give out high scores easily !

Buzz, thank you.

I have got to say that 80% of the dice crew, and 70% of the other dealers are very good by strict standards, and I would always work with them happily on a game. The others have developed attitude problems or some burn-out.

I've noticed that FMLA, (that is, being protected by the "Family Medical Leave Act" of protected work) is often abused, in my opinion. Actually, in not just my opinion. The right to call in sick just before work, and the right to leave work early for a legitimate reason - no matter what or how busy the table games pit is, - in my opinion, sometimes abused as a complete "get out of jail free" Ace-in-the-Hole card by a few workers who are just a little tired or burnt out from the day. I've seen FMLA-ers leave work early for some medical reason, then I see them later that night (actually overnight, like 4AM) when playing an hour of slots with my wife after work - at a Video Poker lounge playing Jacks or better with a drink in his hand: "C'mon - gimme the flush!" WTF!!

FMLA is there to save your job and life when you really need it, not because you've been a "good boy for six weeks," and decide to blow off some work. Plan a vacation day, we all get some floaters and vacation time to decompress.

Maybe about another 10% of dealers have a "just HAD it with dealing with freakin' people," and turn nasty. One of our dealers (nameless) has been generating a LOT of customer rudeness complaints, a combination of bad attitude and taking home life into work kind of things, and has been rude and impatient with players, poking them at times. You can vent about your day after work to other dealers, at a forum, in a bar after work, with your brother on the way to the movies or something, but losing it at the table is a no-no. Like the Zen-master dice dealer I came across, you just say "thank you Sir" on a 0.01% tip on a Royal, and say "Sheeesh" over it later, to yourself far away from the pit. "Not reacting" on the spot is actually a skill.

Quote: weaselman

Whenever HALF of anything is called "very fine", that is a kind of an immediate signal, that the standard of evaluation is held way too low.

When I worked for AT&T they were 4 categories : below average, average, above average, and exceptional. Usually 80-90% were rated above average LOL Rating were on 5 different qualities.

Unknown to most employees. the point value were 1, 3, 4 and 6. I was a chief shop steward , plus had a few ex managers on my crew, so i know this was a fact.

Lots of managers would rate a kiss ass 3 above average and 2 exceptional. Actually the comment for above average categories
were good enough to be worthy of exceptional. But 4 X 3 =12 and 2 X 6 =12. 24 points and chase that carrot, the kiss asses would.

Not knowing as I did, that you needed 25 points to be on the promotable list LOL

Buzz,
In the gaming business, it really is shaded downward, the other way, for casino dealers. Florrmen and pit bosses are seldom your friend as the working man.

Nobody gets 5's or 4's in most casinos, no matter how stellar the work performance, and it is considered a 4-star dealer rating to be:
1. Not late for work, or late back from a break, - I mean not one time in six months.
2. To not have a single altercation, disagreement, or issue with either any player or a fellow worker.
3. To not make a mistake that you decided to plow on through on your own, without alerting the participation of a floorman at any time.
4. To never have surveillance call down on your game for any reason: error, stepping away from the table, turning away from the rack, needlessly blocking the chip rack during play, improperly displaying buy-in cash, allowing players to use phones or electronics at the table, allowing purses, bags or ANYTHING other than a beverage and/or cigarattes to be on the felt for a player, and not showing the palms of your open hands to surveillance while stepping into or out of a table game;
5. Appropriate Uniform, haircut, and proper hand hygiene (no band-aids, or long nails for men);
6. Always being rated as a fast, up-to-speed-dealer on all games (although Blackjack is the only "officially rated" speed-rated game).
7. Zero customer complaints;
8. Never being called into the Shift office for any infraction or trouble, - over some issue that they simply don't need to deal with, have the time to deal with, - and shouldn't have to deal with,

This is enough statement on your job performance for yourself, and you should know it without having to be patronized by managent or anyone else. You do your job right, you know it, and you're satisfied. You get your paycheck, and you pay the mortgage and car payment, and you take your wife out.
Life is All Right.

If you need a hand job in order to do your job, then something is wrong with you.

All without ever expecting to receive a pat on the back, a bonus, or simply a comment of "good job" from anyone on management staff. Your worth is measured by the absence of any noise, complaint, and interaction with busy casino management, and your steady paycheck in tough times is proof.

The fact that our management addresses us kindly in kind tones, ("Good evening Mr. Lubin," or, "Dan," or "Danny") and with a handshake outside of the pit from the Casino manager, Shift manager, or Director of Table games, in enough. Some dealers get this, others are told, "You're late - again."

Quote: Paigowdan

Edit: I will say that I notice that some posters are quite pleased by fine service they consistently receive from dealers,..

How do you know when you get good service
from a dealer? You bet, he pays you or takes
the money. Where did the 'good service' come in?

Some dealers are friendlier than others, why does
that deserve a tip? Maybe its because I treat a
dealer like a dealer and not a casino host. I never
ask for a waitress, or where the buffet is, or where
I can take a leak. I never ask them anything, because
for the most part, they don't like it.

" Florrmen and pit bosses are seldom your friend as the working man. "

I always figured me and AT&T squared up every payday. No complaints here. I was usually elected Chief Shop Steward by a wide margin. You need to be somewhat of a jerk to have to defend some of the real losers. In a good union shop, you damn near have to fire yourself. It is not easy, but it can be done. Especially if drugs are involved.

AT&T had a great benefit package. Sometimes I would actually set a worker up to get him into rehab .

Think about it. With our benefit plan, you could go into a rehab farm for 30 days, keep drawing a paycheck while in there. You could actually do this twice a lifetime as long as there is 6 months between treatments.

One girl, Karen , about 29, would go to lunch and come back blasted 15 minutes later. Qualudes with a Jack Daniels chaser. Passed out once at her desk, got somebody to carry her to ladies room and lay her on the couch. 2nd level had a hot nut for her and when i said she was very ill, he called an ambulance. Got cough medicine from another worker, had it put in her purse. Might add at this time she dressed right out of Fredericks of Hollywood , so was easy to get ambulance jockey to go along.

A week later she was blasted again, had 1st level break her into tears and enter rehab. I have a reason for stating her case. Lots of guys in AT&T and Chesapeake Bell were making great money and benefits. But outside that world would be looking at minimum wage or best.

First week Karen was there, another guy from AT&T was in last week of rehab. During her month there 2 other guys from Bell
showed up. After Karen got out and in 2 weeks afterward all 3 guys called her up to go party. And said they would supply the coke.

I am sure drugs and dealers often go together. Or addicted gambling. Or any addiction, even religion. Could not save Dallas Gibson, a black co-worker when he got a bad case of religion.

Wiz has not posted my pix from Vegas. Maybe I should post my 70's pix as Shop Steward. I was even scarier back then LOL

I keep trying to read EvenBob's replies as poetry but it doesn't work!

I agree to a point, if they were paid a legitimate wage, tips wouldn't make sense. There's very few ways for a dealer to offer superior service to a player. Things like having a cheerful attitude and being good at their job are a job description, not extraordinary service.

It is also awkward because we all know the casino has a house edge and we spend considerable effort to minimize that by learning to play the game well. However, if you follow the wizard's advice and tip around half your average bet per hour, that is more than tripling the house edge on a game like blackjack.

Furthermore, it is a little bit weird to play with money in front of a person who needs some of it to make a decent living. It's not as bad as begging, but it is implied. It would be like if you had to tip your bank teller every time you visited the bank (but only if you are making a withdrawal, no one expects you to tip if you're making a deposit).

None of this is the dealer's fault and I understand in addition to my room and meals I am expected to pay the dealer, but it is a weird situation to be in for me as a player.

Quote: Paigowdan

Edit: I will say that I notice that some posters are quite pleased by fine service they consistently receive from dealers, while others are annoyed and flummoxed by the poor service they consistently recieve and feel don't feel they deserve. Now...if we can only isolate the "elusive variable" in these equations.....

I am not sure what this actually says ... but in case, it was directed at me, let me clarify. I (almost) never tip the dealers (aside from sending left over red tokens their way after I color up), and I am usually pretty pleased with the service. If I am not pleased, I leave. But that would be a rather extraordinary exception than a rule.
I don't know what "elusive variable" you had in mind, and what this says about me (other than the obvious, that I don't like tipping in general, and tipping dealers in particular) ... I guess, that I am not a hard person to please.
I do tip the waitresses, btw. It looks like I have to if I want to have any hope of ever seeing her again that evening. Not that I think she deserves my money any more than a dealer does ... she is just in a better position to extort it.

Quote: EvenBob

How do you know when you get good service
from a dealer?

Basically, You'd have to be conscious and sentient, and not sh[t-faced down in your glass. It's actually easy to determine if you are reasonably conscious.
You know - Some people can actually do this, - even while not chewing gum, Bob.

Quote: Paigowdan

Basically, You'd have to be conscious and sentient, and not sh[t-faced down in your glass.
.

I never drink when I play. So from your flippant
answer, there is no way to tell when you get good
service from a dealer. If you can identify good
service, please describe bad service. How do I
tell them apart?

You can say:
Well, Bob, you might be able to determine the good service you receive, and the bad service you receive, simply by: THE SERVICE YOU ACTUALLY RECEIVE FROM PEOPLE :

1. The dealer seems to be friendly, similing, and patient with me, because I am gracious, kind, and easy to deal to, and cause little problems for the genral public, and when I am out on the town for an evening's night out.....

2. Ohh...the dealer does not seem to be happy with me at his table...bad start to a bad night,,,,
Hmmmmmmm.............

As in...
Most People Cannot Miss It.
And they tip accordingly, and as they how see fit. Doesn't really matter anyway, when averaged out....

You know, for some people, it takes a while to catch onto this "behaving in public thing"... some people are simply far more gracious and functional in public environs in their lives, and others, well, they are not, and are bitter and resentful about the public same casinos and clubs.

(duplicate...)

Quote: Paigowdan

You can say:
Well:
1. The dealer seems to be friendly, similing, and patient with me..

So a dealer who isn't doing those things isn't
giving good service, in your opinion? Dan, that
describes 85% of the dealers in any casino.
Most seem not friendly or unfriendly, they're
just there, dealing. You're making my point
for me, why tip them for this. Why don't I
get up at 5am and tip my garbageman, he's
in a position to give me better service
than a dealer is.

Lots of dealer tip threads around here.

Does anyone think the replies from dealers will turn
non-tippers into tippers? How about tippers to non-tippers?

Quote: MakingBook

Does anyone think the replies from dealers will turn
non-tippers into tippers? How about tippers to non-tippers?

Its worked for me, its turning me into a
non tipper. What will they do if I stop,
hate me? According to the dealer forums,
they talk about us and make fun of us
no matter if we tip or not, whats the point.

They think they 'deserve' a portion of a
win we make, like they got it for us somehow.
What a joke.

Quote: weaselman

Interesting ... my order of priorities would be exactly opposite to yours, starting with the dealer, and ending with the grocery store cashier. To me, the latter is the worst job ever, if not in the whole world, then definitely out of the four choices you listed.

I was a cashier (and sometimes deli) prior to being the PM Shift Manager of that grocery store, and I thought it wasn't too bad if the store was really busy. If you have a line of people three or more carts deep at all times, then you hardly had time to look at the clock and time flies. It'd feel like you were there for ten minutes before first break, ten minutes until lunch, and then another ten minutes before last break. It royally sucked when the store was slow, though, whereas Managing the shift was pretty awesome because you were busy the entire time.

Like I said, my order was based on ease of work, not what I'd actually want to do. I think my order for that would be gas station attendant (if midnight shift), dealer, gas station attendant (any other shift), cashier, bank teller.

Quote: kulin

Furthermore, it is a little bit weird to play with money in front of a person who needs some of it to make a decent living. It's not as bad as begging, but it is implied. It would be like if you had to tip your bank teller every time you visited the bank (but only if you are making a withdrawal, no one expects you to tip if you're making a deposit).

It'd be nice if bank tellers could accept tips. I had to make a deposit, a withdrawal, and another deposit within the same five minutes once because I had a little confusion over what bills had already been paid that month. It'd have been nice to be able to give her $5.00, or something, for being such a pain in the ass. Either way, I always by them a bag of the little mixed candy bars anytime I go in around most holidays, and they love having those to snack on.

Quote: EvenBob

So a dealer who isn't doing those things isn't
giving good service, in your opinion? Dan, that
describes 85% of the dealers in any casino.
Most seem not friendly or unfriendly, they're
just there, dealing. You're making my point
for me, why tip them for this. Why don't I
get up at 5am and tip my garbageman, he's
in a position to give me better service
than a dealer is.

You give them a little something at Christmastime, don't you?

I usually give each of them, driver/loader, an envelope with $20. It goes a looooongggg way, they've never missed me.

Quote: Mission146

You give them a little something at Christmastime, don't you?

.

I give my barber a bottle of Jack at Xmas, thats
it. A tradition.

Quote: Mission146

I was a cashier (and sometimes deli) prior to being the PM Shift Manager of that grocery store, and I thought it wasn't too bad

Oh, I would not call it "too bad" either. Lumberjack is "too bad". Dairy farm worker is "too bad". A cashier is nothing near "too bad". In fact, it is just fine. Just the worst one of the four you mentioned, in my opinion.

Quote:

Like I said, my order was based on ease of work, not what I'd actually want to do.

Yes, ease of work, that's how I understood you. Although, for the life of me, I can't begin to imagine why I would want to do a harder job for the same pay. So, at least, to me, the two questions are completely equivalent - dealer, teller, gas station, grocery store, best to worst.