Money management on UTH?

Ok guys and girls, since I am just hooked on UTH!

I was wondering what money management you use to play the game.

I know that everyone has a different bank roll to start with but I thought I would see what everyone else uses for managing their money. I see all types of starter money. $10 on all three spots (trips, ante, blind) $5 on all, $5 on trips and $10 on other two!

I have the basics down and I have to admit that it scares me sometimes to play the big 4x when I should (especially if I start with $15 on each spot and have monster hand (A K and so forth) and the teachings say go the 4x and the table has been not so forgiving.
I am not a HUGE gambler and start with $300 or $400 bank roll when I go to play.

So I am looking for ideas on money management.
Thanks!

When I play a game like UTH (or THB or MS Stud), I usually think about the most money that I'm willing to risk on a hand. For me, that's usually around $50 - which is 1/10th of my usual buyin. Then I look at what that means in a given game. In MS Stud, that would imply something like a $10 ante, since I'd only bet 3x on a spot if I was sure I could at least push. In THB or UTH, it's harder to sort out. Sometimes I'll bet a $10 ante on UTH, knowing that I'll have to risk a total of $60 if it I want to go 4x on the play. Usually I just go $5 and play a little smaller than I'd truly be willing to. I usually avoid the trips bet, especially since the blind pays odds anyway. When I do play the trips bet, it's usually with "extra" money. Like if I have $80 and I want to get to $100, I might bet $10 on the ante ($60 total with the blind and possible 4x play) and $20 on the trips since I don't actually "need" that money to play the hand.

UTH is a big variance game when you can bet up to 4x on the back on the blind. So essentially, with the trips bet, you can have 6x your original bet on the board.

According to the strategy on the WOO UTH page, you do the big raise 37.7% of the time, the medium raise 21.3% of the time, a small raise 21.8% of the time, and fold the other 19.2% of the time.

Your average bet on the Ante-Blind-Play is 4.15 units. Assuming you play trips at the same unit, you have on average 5.15 units in play.

A bankroll of $300 - $400 I would suggest is way too small to be betting $15 blind. I'm thinking that a bankroll of 60 - 80x your minimum bet would be appropriate when playing trips, at least 40 - 60x your bankroll when not.

So, $300 - $400 would be good at $5 / hand if you want to last a session of say 3-4 hours with little risk of ruin. Of course, I don't know the variance of the game.

If you place an ante bet of $15 and feel nervous about backing it up with another $60 WHENEVER basic strategy says to do so, then you are playing UTH WRONG!

You must be able to put the 4x every time its called for to manage the house edge. That is how you manage you money. Think of the ante as an 'ante', it's not the same as your BJ bet. If you normally play BJ for $15 a hand, $5 a hand UTH is bigger exposure!

I also don't play trips, because (a) my paytable stinks, (b) the blind bet pays most of the same hands (and pays bigger on the rare hands).

My general rule for carnival games is I bet enough that if I were to win a high-payout hand I'd be really happy. For example, a UTH straight flush pays 50 to 1. If I bet $5 and won $250 I'd feel somewhat disappointed that I only won $250. However, I'd be really excited if I won $500 so I'd bet $10/hand. Compared to most people here I probably have a pretty low bar for excitement.

Quote: rdw4potus

In MS Stud, that would imply something like a $10 ante, since I'd only bet 3x on a spot if I was sure I could at least push.

Then you are playing the game incorrectly, and your HE on that game will be considerably higher. Flush draws, heck even the three card Royal gets a 3x bet. If the most you want to risk each hand is $50 on MS Stud, then you need to only bet $5.

Quote: Tiltpoul

Then you are playing the game incorrectly, and your HE on that game will be considerably higher. Flush draws, heck even the three card Royal gets a 3x bet. If the most you want to risk each hand is $50 on MS Stud, then you need to only bet $5.

Tilt! These aren't rules, they're more like guidelines...:-)

For $5 UTH (no trips) I would have a bankroll of $1000-$2000. (Note: I disregard this rule frequently). Playing the Trips won't increase your variance THAT much but it will increase your expected loss. Tack on another $500. Multiply accordingly.

My money management rule: Have a lot of money.

Quote: teddys

For $5 UTH (no trips) I would have a bankroll of $1000-$2000.
My rule for money management: Have a lot of money.

Would you put it on the table, or do you differentiate between buy-in and bankroll?

Quote: rdw4potus

Would you put it on the table, or do you differentiate between buy-in and bankroll?

No, that would just be the bankroll to devote to UTH to allow one to "play forever" so to speak. Of course, you will eventually lose it all, but for recreational play that should last you a good long while.

I think a lot of people confuse the meaning of the terms bankroll, session money, and buy-in. At least the accepted definition of those words by APs, pro gamblers, writers and the like. They use them interchangeably , and most of us understand what the person is attempting to say.
To me "Bankroll" is the money I have set aside purely for casino use. It is not the rent/mortgage, nor any other bill. It is truly disposable income. Session money is the portion of the bankroll taken to said casino to use. Buy-in is a smaller portion of the session money, simply used at a specific game, in this case UTH. Huh... starting to sound like George Carlin's bit " a place for your stuff"!

My session money is usually 500$. Buy in money is usually 100, some games it becomes 105, due to the math. For UTH I use 105$, basically 5 hands at a pure minimum bet at a 5$ game. Ima sucker for the 1$ progressive bet, I am fairly close to even on that bet. Yea I know... way way under capitalized, but that is all I am willing to risk. I do follow most of the WOO basic strategy to the game. I will raise 4x any ace, any 2 faces, and pairs. I will not raise 2x unless I have a pair or better, and don't chase 4 to a straight or flush.

I have taken a SWAG and bumped up to a 10$ bet on the opening bets(trips,ante,blind). I am hesitant to 4x raise, but will 3x all Aces and pairs. I have been very fortunate to have fallen into my only royal and straight flushes with the "double bet" out, for a very nice, "go home" hands.

As with any of the games I play, and I stick to craps, BJ and UTH, with the occasional Pai gow poker tossed in, doubling the buy in is a sign to leave. I don't count every dollar and instantly quit, but do have an idea where I am money wise. Last night I was up around 75 bucks, kinda running even with the house, losing single play bets, but winning most of the double and 4x. I took the time to "double up" 10$ on the trips, ante,blind. Hole cards were Q6 unsuited. flop came 6,6,2. 2x raise on the play. Turn/River came QK for a full house. A nice little payout! Got 8x on the Trips, 3x on blind, and the even money on ante/play, + 9 for flopping a set. Walked out a little over 200$ ahead!
That's just my money management, it seems to work ok, and keeps me from turning a win into a loss. Too many times I have found myself up 112$ on a craps table and try ot get to 200$, and watch it turn into a 200$ losing day. Take the money and run.

First I would like to thank you all for your comments! I always try and listen to everyone's ideas and then glean from that what I should do. I started playing UTH because I have always been a BJ man but have grown tired of it and started looking for a new game to play during a "cooling off period" away from BJ. I feel into UTH by accident and found a game that is interesting to play (because I have always liked card games and poker) so this is why all my questions.

I do agree with "chefphydeaux" on the money should be "extra money". Not rent money or food money, but extra money that if lost will not cause me a hardship. For me $400 has been that number (I have been thinking about moving that to $500 because I have run the numbers and my finances say that number is acceptable) if I go for one night to a local casino.

If I go out of town the "bankroll" is the money I start with each trip and the Session money is what I start with each night (if I go away for the weekend (to Kansas City lets say) and go to stay at a casino or near a casino) I take a bankroll of lets say $600 and then each night start with a session money of $200. If I lose that then I am done for the night and either watch others or go do something else. If I am winning then I go until I am tired and then stop. "BUT" the next night I still only start with $200! Each night is unto itself.

I follow WOO very close to the rules/percentages that should produce results. I said "close" but not all the way on WOO rules. I have problem with betting 4x on Ace anything (I like A7 on up but have a problem with betting 4x on a A2). I like to start out at $5 spots (trips, ante, blind) and see how the cards are playing. If the dealer is hot I keep it there if the cards are being good to the players I will bump it up to $10 a spot. (Yes I play the trips bet even though I know for the most part it is a bad bet.) I will not chase the 4 to a straight but will to a flush (I dont know the percentage on making a flush with 4 cards showing same suit, but I have noticed more times then not that I do make the flush.)

I am not looking to get rich, but have a good time and hopefully go home with a few hundred in my pocket. I must be doing something right because I play for hours and (more times then not) walk away being some $ up. At worst down a couple hundred. I keep track of my winnings and loses and as of right now I am a few hundred ahead.

Again, thank you all for your input! Good luck to you all!

Betting 3x over 4x will cost you on average of 6.235% in HA. In otherwords, the HA goes from 2.18% to 8.42%.

You bet 4x because you have an advantage.

sorry! HA? Whats that? I am new at the lingo (trying to learn). So again, whats HA?

deleted

So, I've taken the WOO's table here and manipulated the first two card value to show the expected value based on the 1st two cards.

Initial Cards	Expected Value		Initial Cards	Expected Value
5/K unsuited	-0.117582		2/K suited	-0.074507
8/Q unsuited	-0.069429		6/K unsuited	-0.020774
6/Q suited	-0.006074		3/K suited	0.022
2/A unsuited	0.04173		7/Q suited	0.062776
7/K unsuited	0.081354		3/3 pair	0.088456
8/J suited	0.107386		4/K suited	0.117016
9/Q unsuited	0.132505		3/A unsuited	0.147447
8/K unsuited	0.166259		10/J unsuited	0.174024
5/K suited	0.219148		4/A unsuited	0.249395
8/Q suited	0.278932		6/K suited	0.309149
9/J suited	0.317837		6/A unsuited	0.339763
5/A unsuited	0.358541		10/Q unsuited	0.369495
9/K unsuited	0.371024		2/A suited	0.399855
7/K suited	0.403899		J/Q unsuited	0.455681
4/4 pair	0.46157		7/A unsuited	0.465996
8/K suited	0.481611		9/Q suited	0.489199
3/A suited	0.496714		8/A unsuited	0.575314
4/A suited	0.590105		10/K unsuited	0.607484
6/A suited	0.649275		9/A unsuited	0.667695
5/A suited	0.690217		J/K unsuited	0.691991
9/K suited	0.694571		7/A suited	0.767431
10/J suited	0.778841		Q/K unsuited	0.782942
5/5 pair	0.831643		8/A suited	0.86889
10/A unsuited	0.906071		10/Q suited	0.943595
9/A suited	0.953564		J/A unsuited	0.991767
J/Q suited	1.024156		Q/A unsuited	1.080609
10/K suited	1.148469		6/6 pair	1.159873
K/A unsuited	1.171914		J/K suited	1.2275
Q/K suited	1.31262		10/A suited	1.409312
7/7 pair	1.486948		J/A suited	1.489507
Q/A suited	1.572705		K/A suited	1.658326
8/8 pair	1.811461		9/9 pair	2.132513
10/10 pair	2.480803		J/J pair	2.749739
Q/Q pair	3.018649		K/K pair	3.289359
A/A pair	3.601073

Some observations. Why do you raise 4x when the EV <0?

If you are going to do 3x as money management or because you have a hunch or for whatever reason, I would only consider doing so on the first few rows of the table.

Once you get past about .50, I think you're throwing a substantial part of your house advantage away.

Thanks, this is useful.

Quote: boymimbo

Some observations. Why do you raise 4x when the EV <0?

Just a thought: You lose less then you would by checking? By the way, if you are going to do a scavenge play (e.g., put an extra $5 on someones 3x raise to make it 4x, or go half on a 4x raise), you should not do so on any -E.V. hands, for obvious reasons.

Thank you!

Quote: teddys

Thanks, this is useful.

Quote: boymimbo

Some observations. Why do you raise 4x when the EV <0?

Just a thought: You lose less then you would by checking? By the way, if you are going to do a scavenge play (e.g., put an extra $5 on someones 3x raise to make it 4x, or go half on a 4x raise), you should not do so on any -E.V. hands, for obvious reasons.

Yep, its because you lose less than by checking. You can use this calculator to see the difference between raising and checking.
For scavenger play, you can do any hand that wins more often than it loses. You can use this table. This includes hands that normally would be checked like pocket deuces.

When I play UTH, I bet $3 Ante and Blind, $2 trips and $1 progressive. What can I say, I'm a sucker for side bets.

Quote: miplet

Quote: teddys

Thanks, this is useful.

Just a thought: You lose less then you would by checking? By the way, if you are going to do a scavenge play (e.g., put an extra $5 on someones 3x raise to make it 4x, or go half on a 4x raise), you should not do so on any -E.V. hands, for obvious reasons.

Yep, its because you lose less than by checking. You can use this calculator to see the difference between raising and checking.
For scavenger play, you can do any hand that wins more often than it loses. You can use this table. This includes hands that normally would be checked like pocket deuces.

When I play UTH, I bet $3 Ante and Blind, $2 trips and $1 progressive. What can I say, I'm a sucker for side bets.

Thanks, Miplet.