Live Camera Blackjack? Is it worth a shot?

So, I've noticed that there are Online Casino sites that offer the option of Live Camera table games, where there is an actual dealer, visible on a webcam, dealing out cards in real-time (as opposed to a random number generator).

The rules I've seen aren't as favorable as one would find in a casino, however. From what I've seen:

H17, one split allowed, DAS, No hitting split Aces, No Surrender, 8 deck shoe. (3:2 payout on BJ). So its not terrible, but not great either.

My question is: If you're a card counter, is playing a game like this worth it? I figure you can really maximize your spread without the worry of pit bosses looking over your shoulder. But at the same time, the rules might not be favorable enough to make the game a winner. What do you guys think? (I calculated the House Edge of this game at around 0.7%). And I'm not sure how great the deck penetration would be.

Who needs pit bosses when you are playing through a piece of software that does all the tracking much easier and much better, all with your written consent?

I recall some reports of people successfully counting webcam games, but it was a while ago, and these were one-time affairs. Haven't heard any followup news. But I wouldn't hold any hope for it. At least when a brick and mortar casino bans you, you can still cash out your chips. Online casinos are infamous for freezing accounts even without a good reason, much less with one.

Granted, I haven't looked too deeply into online casinos and I am not a member of one, but I wasn't aware that they could freeze your account, especially if you're not breaking any rules. Counting isn't illegal, so what grounds would they have to freezing an account?

Though you might have a point overall. Even if they don't freeze the account, they could just pay you and kick you out. It didn't dawn on me that online casinos would employ a technological means of checking for things like this. I guess I was just naive.

Quote: JVIPER88

so what grounds would they have to freezing an account?

Grounds? They need grounds? What are you going to do about if they not only freeze your account but never tell you why? You going to travel to Costa Rica and sue in a jurisdiction where the casino owners are major political contributors and court cases can be endlessly appealed?

Again, I clearly don't know all there is to know about these online casinos, but I was under the impression that the ones which ARE permitted to operate in the US (there are many, many more that are not), are required to follow legitimate practices of land casinos. I know that they are supposed to at least comply with game fairness and pay scales.

I'm not arguing... Im just kinda surprised.

AFAIK there aren't currently any casinos that are legally operating in US. That doesn't mean they are all *illegal*, but at best it's a legal gray area.

You would likely get some chance if you live where online gambling is legal and the casino is located in the same country; even so, the lengthy multi-tiered Terms of Use that you sign have provisions that the casino can use to seize your winnings (and by extension your whole account). Your position is much stronger in a B&M casino governed by common or civil law rather than self-written ToU that solely serve the house.

Quote: JVIPER88

So, I've noticed that there are Online Casino sites that offer the option of Live Camera table games, where there is an actual dealer, visible on a webcam, dealing out cards in real-time (as opposed to a random number generator).

I don't understand this concept. Is there a dealer dealing real cards where the players cards are face down. Could he actually be dealing against a hundred different players whose "virtual cards" are generated by a RNG? Or is there a virtual table and you see him dealing to all the players with little avatars standing in for the other players? Do you know when the deck is reshuffled (i.e. does it happen off camera so you don't know when the shoe is replaced)?

And why do you think it is better not to have a pit boss, when he is replaced by a computer that can check the accuracy of your spread?

Here's how it works:

When you log in to play Live BJ, on the top part of your screen, you'll see a dealer on a webcam sitting at a BJ table. It would look just like you're sitting at a BJ table in a casino. On the bottom part of the screen, you will see a "virtual table", where you can see where you are "seated" along with the other players' screen names who are playing with you at that time. Just like at a real table, there are a limited number of spaces. The dealer is able to talk to you through the webcam, and you can respond to him/her by typing in a message box in real-time.

Cards are in a shoe, are dealt face up. You can see them being dealt on camera, and dealt in the traditional fashion. Each player at the table gets their own set of cards. When the cards are dealt, they are scanned by a barcode reader or something, and the cards are digitally displayed on the bottom part of the screen on your "virtual table". So you can see your cards on webcam and on the virtual table; I think it makes it easier to see everything.

When the shoe comes to an end, just like at the real tables, everyone waits while the shoe is reshuffled by hand. You can see the shuffling taking place.

I think its a pretty neat concept, and I like the idea much better than just playing regular online blackjack. But there are dangers here that I wasn't thinking about, so I'm glad people brought that to my attention.

As to your second question, I wasn't thinking about computer software being used to track my movements. Stupidity, I guess.

It seems like this would be slower playing than the traditional version against a computerized dealer. There has to be a certain amount of time given to each player at the table for them to receive the video and input their action. In other words, it should be comparable to playing in a live casino, which if one isn't available, then the online thing is probably a good idea. But you wouldn't be able to play as fast as if you were playing against a computer.

Yes, these Live Blackjack games are way much slower than the ones generated by an RNG. One of their very big problem is penetration. And from what I know all of these live blackjack games have only a penetration of 50% !!! That was the bad news.

Another thing to know would be to AVOID playing with a bonus (welcome bonus, or other type of bonus) unless you thoroughly read all of their Terms & Conditions (there may be very well 7-8 pages lenth of these) and make sure they allow blackjack rollover and that there is no clause such as `Spirit of the Bonus` or `Irregular Betting Patterns` (which are actually at most of the online casinos) before you accept to take that bonus. Basically these two clauses are interpretable in so many ways that allow them the right to void all of your winnings, calling you a bonus whore (bonus abouser) and some even worse casinos will go that far to even keep your deposit ! Moreover, EVEN if you DONT TAKE ANY BONUS at all you HAVE TO READ ALL of their Terms and Conditions anyway because some online casinos (such as but not limited to Rome Casino and Rome Partners - so said `reputable casinos`) apply such BAD TERMS where you are only allowed to cash out a maximum 10 times of your deposit just because your deposit was small !!! (anything not over 250$ at once) Basically if you deposit 250$ at once and win a MILLION $$$ worth jackpot all you will receive is only 10x250$=2500$ And in top of it, you also have to wager your deposit at least 10 times before allowed to cash out !

And maybe I am paranoid, but if ACCREDITED & REPUTABLE casinos act like that, who guarantee me that they or some other casinos/bookies under Maltese or Costarican jurisdiction just dont replace a few 10s with some 5s in their Live Blackjack games ?

Quote: JVIPER88

As to your second question, I wasn't thinking about computer software being used to track my movements. Stupidity, I guess.

One advantage to the computer system is that the casino can not only detect if you are "counting cards", but if you are "correctly counting cards". A pit boss doesn't have that luxury. Even though the penetration is only 50%, they can also shuffle a little early if the deck is hot. My suspicion is that the casino makes a lot of money on inept card counters, and hence the web camera system is more profitable than the RNG that starts with a new deck each time.

A live casino doesn't have the ability to do all the number crunching, so they have no choice but to back off any player who is trying to count. The web system can actually target the best counter. Since they are making a lot of their profit on novice card counters, the casino may let you go if you are not winning extreme amounts of cash. It would probably be profitable to publicize that some people are beating the system.

In any case they can always do the electronic equivalent of backing you off before you do serious damage. I see no reason why a casino would suffer the unnecessary bad publicity of freezing your account.