March 2nd, 2011 at 7:12:14 PM
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I've perused your wizardofodds site for years now but only recently really started diving into poker. I noticed you had initial hand ranks for 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, and 10 player hold em games, but not for 5, 7, and 9. Any chance you could add those? Or is there a reason they were omitted? Apologies if this has been answered or addressed elsewhere; I didn't see it.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
March 2nd, 2011 at 8:44:47 PM
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Just some friendly advice-
There is really no practical need for a deep analysis of preflop hands. Preflop is the most simple stage of a poker hand, complex tables like this are not going to make you a good player (no offense to the wizard). This isn't to say that preflop isn't important- it is the first step to playing good poker. Poker is a completely different animal than casino table games. There is no set strategy or absolutely correct moves to follow. A PF hand will have a different value depending on you, the other players, your position at the table, and your stack size. Strategy also changes whether you are playing limit or no-limit hold'em and also between cash games and tournaments.
The way you should approach PF strategy is to simply have a (flexible) list of hands that you will allow yourself to play in each position, taking into account what action has been taken in front of you. Since you are just starting out and you have little experience you should stick to a tight (conservative) strategy where you only play strong hands in early position (the first 2-3 spots to the left of the big blind (BB)) such as AA-TT, AK, and AQs.
If there has been no raise, open in middle position (4-5 from BB) with all of the above, adding in: pairs 99-77, AQo-AJo, and KQ.
and in late position (cut-off (CO) and button): all of the above plus all pairs, suited aces, ATo-A8o, KJs-K9s, KJo-KTo, QJ-QT, and JTs. You can add in an occasional low suited connector, but don't go below 54s. With these weaker hands you are mainly hoping to just take down the blinds. Be very careful if you are called. Usually fold if the blinds re-raise.
The goal here is to keep yourself out of trouble when out of position. If it seems like you will be folding a lot, it's true. Playing good poker can get very boring, but I'd rather have rare moments of excitement and win than constant action and lose. As you gain more experience and learn to understand post-flop relative hand strength you can open up you range a bit, but this will take time.
Also, if you are first to enter the pot (it has folded around to you) and you have a hand you want to play- RAISE!! Open-limping is one of the biggest preflop leaks a player can have. 2.5-4x the blind is a good raise range. However, never vary your raise size according to the strength of your hand. This will be a pretty big tell for the other players. Either always raise the same amount or vary it randomly.
If there has been a raise ahead of you, you have to tighten your range dramatically:
Usually re-raise with AA-QQ. Raise or call (depending on read/situation/and goal) with JJ-TT and AK. Call with smaller pairs hoping to flop a set as long as both stack sizes are large (at least 20x the raise you will be calling) and you don't expect to be re-raised (you are in late position). Usually fold all other hands to a raise.
In the blinds you should play tight. Don't call a raise just because you have a small discount. Also, do not limp in the SB with weak hands. This is another big leak.
Sorry to try to give a long lesson that in no way answers your question. Just trying to show you that you can't read a chart and suddenly know how to play preflop. The Wiz's charts just show relative hand strength if all hands are played out to the river and does not take into account player actions (at least I assume).
To answer your question about adjusting for number of players, I will start out by saying that the fewer players there are the looser and more aggressive you must be to stay ahead of the blinds. For an inexperienced player this can get you in a lot of trouble. My first piece of advice for you is to just stick with 9 or 10 handed games (usually called full-ring games in online communities) while you are just starting out. Yes, they move a lot slower and 6-max is more exciting, but it will allow you to play tighter and get better experience.
The way I look at short-handed games and PF strategy is pretty much to pretend like the first few seats of a full game have already folded before action begins. So if the game is 6-handed, you would use the hand range for middle position if you are first to act, and so-on. In most positions you will be playing as if you are on the button in a full game. This is why short-handed games are dangerous for the inexperienced. It is very easy to get in trouble when you are always playing hands like A9 and KJ.
I hope this has been helpful. Sorry about the over-long post. If you really want to get good at the game, look up an actual poker forum. WOZ is a great site for casino games but even he admits that he is no poker expert. Read a book or two as well. They have helped me quite a bit. Harrington's books are considered very good. BTW, the advice above is primarily meant for low-stakes no-limit cash games. Tournament strategy must take into account the rising blinds and pay scales. Good luck!
There is really no practical need for a deep analysis of preflop hands. Preflop is the most simple stage of a poker hand, complex tables like this are not going to make you a good player (no offense to the wizard). This isn't to say that preflop isn't important- it is the first step to playing good poker. Poker is a completely different animal than casino table games. There is no set strategy or absolutely correct moves to follow. A PF hand will have a different value depending on you, the other players, your position at the table, and your stack size. Strategy also changes whether you are playing limit or no-limit hold'em and also between cash games and tournaments.
The way you should approach PF strategy is to simply have a (flexible) list of hands that you will allow yourself to play in each position, taking into account what action has been taken in front of you. Since you are just starting out and you have little experience you should stick to a tight (conservative) strategy where you only play strong hands in early position (the first 2-3 spots to the left of the big blind (BB)) such as AA-TT, AK, and AQs.
If there has been no raise, open in middle position (4-5 from BB) with all of the above, adding in: pairs 99-77, AQo-AJo, and KQ.
and in late position (cut-off (CO) and button): all of the above plus all pairs, suited aces, ATo-A8o, KJs-K9s, KJo-KTo, QJ-QT, and JTs. You can add in an occasional low suited connector, but don't go below 54s. With these weaker hands you are mainly hoping to just take down the blinds. Be very careful if you are called. Usually fold if the blinds re-raise.
The goal here is to keep yourself out of trouble when out of position. If it seems like you will be folding a lot, it's true. Playing good poker can get very boring, but I'd rather have rare moments of excitement and win than constant action and lose. As you gain more experience and learn to understand post-flop relative hand strength you can open up you range a bit, but this will take time.
Also, if you are first to enter the pot (it has folded around to you) and you have a hand you want to play- RAISE!! Open-limping is one of the biggest preflop leaks a player can have. 2.5-4x the blind is a good raise range. However, never vary your raise size according to the strength of your hand. This will be a pretty big tell for the other players. Either always raise the same amount or vary it randomly.
If there has been a raise ahead of you, you have to tighten your range dramatically:
Usually re-raise with AA-QQ. Raise or call (depending on read/situation/and goal) with JJ-TT and AK. Call with smaller pairs hoping to flop a set as long as both stack sizes are large (at least 20x the raise you will be calling) and you don't expect to be re-raised (you are in late position). Usually fold all other hands to a raise.
In the blinds you should play tight. Don't call a raise just because you have a small discount. Also, do not limp in the SB with weak hands. This is another big leak.
Sorry to try to give a long lesson that in no way answers your question. Just trying to show you that you can't read a chart and suddenly know how to play preflop. The Wiz's charts just show relative hand strength if all hands are played out to the river and does not take into account player actions (at least I assume).
To answer your question about adjusting for number of players, I will start out by saying that the fewer players there are the looser and more aggressive you must be to stay ahead of the blinds. For an inexperienced player this can get you in a lot of trouble. My first piece of advice for you is to just stick with 9 or 10 handed games (usually called full-ring games in online communities) while you are just starting out. Yes, they move a lot slower and 6-max is more exciting, but it will allow you to play tighter and get better experience.
The way I look at short-handed games and PF strategy is pretty much to pretend like the first few seats of a full game have already folded before action begins. So if the game is 6-handed, you would use the hand range for middle position if you are first to act, and so-on. In most positions you will be playing as if you are on the button in a full game. This is why short-handed games are dangerous for the inexperienced. It is very easy to get in trouble when you are always playing hands like A9 and KJ.
I hope this has been helpful. Sorry about the over-long post. If you really want to get good at the game, look up an actual poker forum. WOZ is a great site for casino games but even he admits that he is no poker expert. Read a book or two as well. They have helped me quite a bit. Harrington's books are considered very good. BTW, the advice above is primarily meant for low-stakes no-limit cash games. Tournament strategy must take into account the rising blinds and pay scales. Good luck!
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:23:59 PM
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I agree with a lot of what elrohir44 said. Preflop hand selection is much more important in a limit game, especially low limit, where there will typically be a showdown between 3 or 4 players every pot. Kickers and nut flushes are much more important than in NL.
In NL preflop hand selection can range from important to not very important at all depending on the table. If it is a passive table with a lot of limpers preflop you want to play a lot of hands and outplay your opponents with position raises and aggression.
In NL preflop hand selection can range from important to not very important at all depending on the table. If it is a passive table with a lot of limpers preflop you want to play a lot of hands and outplay your opponents with position raises and aggression.