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Viper21
Viper21
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CrystalMathSOOPOO
December 13th, 2020 at 12:43:34 PM permalink
This guy is extremely condescending. If he is not a troll he needs to check his attitude at the door. Nice people are trying to help. Arguing semantics is not gonna help answer his question. If you are making a virtual slot don't make it a persistent state machine and you won't need to worry about it being APable. To answer your question if a slot machine(using your definition of a slot) can be APed the answer is NO. Bam done. End thread.
USpapergames
USpapergames
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December 13th, 2020 at 1:08:52 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Not to mention Konami, since he thinks you have to design either board games or video games to have any real credibility.



No sir, credibility comes from success & there have been some successful slot designers like Al Thomas. The only reason why I believe that the best game designers are in these fields is because of the massive amount of that they have accomplished. The best board game designers are multi-millionaires, are any casino game designers multi-millionaires?
Math is the only true form of knowledge
USpapergames
USpapergames
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December 13th, 2020 at 1:13:35 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

You seem to believe that, because a slot can sometimes be AP'ed, that the casino loses money because of it. It doesn't. The house edge of the machine is based on long-term results, so casinos simply want machines that make money. You make money by drawing players to the game.

The only uphill battle that such games might have compared to others is that APs are going to play only when they think the game is in a positive state, then they are going to cash out when it isn't. That's obviously not something that you are going to see on machines that are incapable of entering a positive state in the first place. Casual players, again obviously, are more likely to just play until they hit something big or lose whatever they put in.

Anyway, I'll leave that for DRich to answer as I'm out of my element now. I don't know if there is a metric similar to, "Hold percentage," which is a table game concept that casinos look at...or if they're only concerned with how much actual cash a slot is making at the end of the day. I would suspect that if there is a metric similar to, "Hold percentage," that it tends to be a bit lower on slot games that can be AP'ed.



I think the first sentence is true to some extent for a few reasons, but it could be as simple as a player likes the features of the game, on an individual player basis.

Why I think that the first sentence is partially true is because the things that make the AP possible are features that can create the perception of value. Another reason is that I think some players will have a tendency not to want to leave accumulated value (in whatever form) behind, which may cause some players to play longer than they otherwise might or to insert more money. In some of these cases, the perception is wrong as the game is not yet in a positive state. You'll see this pretty often when it comes to a player, "Chasing progressives," that have not yet actually gone +EV.

As far as slot machines potentially fooling people in that way, yes, I do think such machines could be successful. More than that, I believe that such machines actually exist right now. Three Kings is an example of this that I have already mentioned. The Free Games accumulator progressive meters create the perception of value, but the game never goes positive---even if all three meters are topped out. There are also a number of progressive games that create the perception of value, and while they could theoretically go +EV, it's quite rare. Many games that have a single progressive are this way simply because of the huge odds against actually hitting the progressive. In some cases, it is that way because the progressive is unlikely to, "Miss enough cycles," for the progressive contributions to turn the game positive.

At the end of the day, you shouldn't really care whether or not AP's want to play your game. You should be concerned only with whether or not the game is enough fun for casual players to want to play it. I'd consider any negative expectation play you might get from APs trying to figure out whether or not it is beatable as, "Gravy." If the APs figure out that it can not be beaten, that is not a death sentence for your game. There are plenty of slot games that cannot be beaten. I think having some variable element that creates the perception of value for casual gamblers is, everything else being equal, going to be of benefit to you.



Thank you for the advice, my thoughts have also been that the game needs to be designed for the casual player but all this talk of AP plausible machines getting more attention has made me ponder upon making an AP plausible side game.
Math is the only true form of knowledge
USpapergames
USpapergames
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December 13th, 2020 at 1:17:24 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

The term you may be looking for is the theorhetical win. Of ocurse the most important thing to the slot director is the actual win but when evaluating a specific machine the most important thing is how far under theorhetical is the actual results. If a machhine is consistently under performing by a large margin it will probably be removed.



Couldn't agree more 👍. Operators need to be more concerned with the machines theoretical return rate over it's actual return rate since it's theoretical return rate should equal the actual return rate in the long run (presuming that the game analysis for the theoretical return rate is accurate).
Math is the only true form of knowledge
DRich
DRich
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rdw4potus
December 13th, 2020 at 1:17:33 PM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

The best board game designers are multi-millionaires, are any casino game designers multi-millionaires?



Many.

Google Ernie Moody who was making close to $30 million a year.
Order from chaos
USpapergames
USpapergames
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December 13th, 2020 at 1:19:50 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

If they threw me out for vulturing a few games they would lose the play where Iím throwing money away.

I suspect Iím not the only player who may use some AP some of the time.



Correct, casinos don't care if your vulturing as long as your not upsetting their customers.
Math is the only true form of knowledge
USpapergames
USpapergames
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December 13th, 2020 at 1:22:02 PM permalink
Quote: sabre

No, like everything else you spew this makes no sense.



I'm not sure how to help you understand if you can't tell me what exactly doesn't make sense to you?
Math is the only true form of knowledge
USpapergames
USpapergames
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December 13th, 2020 at 1:33:02 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Who said they prefer them? The casino prefers slots that they think will make money. That's like saying that a casino, "Prefers," video poker just because it happens to have some video poker games.

Your next sentence stumbles on something. You may not be aware of this, but psychological studies actually have shown that it is the, "Near Miss," that lights up the player's brain the most. The anticipation. The expectation. Even if they hit a crappy set of Free Games, something in the brain says, "Oh, well the next set should be pretty good then since that set didn't perform as well as it, 'should.' Of course, I know and you should know that one set of Free Games has no bearing on future sets, in terms of performance and all else being equal.

If the players are bored by the games and choose not to play, then the number of games per hour is zero. There was once a time that the majority of slot machine games on a casino's floor were single-line games with no special features. If you hit three of this symbol, then you win this much. Sometimes they would pay for hitting one Cherry or two Cherries if they were feeling especially creative.

While single-line slot machine games still exist in most casinos, there is no question that they are in the minority. I believe you're definitely intelligent enough to know why that is, but I'll tell you anyway: Because most people think they are boring.

So, the answer is simple: If the number of games per hour was the most important factor and not, "Taking up a lot of time," then all of the games on the casino floor would not have features that take up a lot of time.

However, that's not the most important factor. The most important factor is making money. Machines with features make money. Machines without any feature are generally ignored, or only played by a small segment of players.

Simply: If the players were only playing the single-line slot games with no features, then soon those would be back to being the majority of slot games in the casino again. If you can come up with a popular slot title with a crazy high SPH that makes more money than the other machines, and get your device on the casino floor, then there is no question you will have great success in the slot machine development business.



Yeah, you're on a gambling forum. This is not a video game or board game message board. If you want to go to China and speak nothing but English, then don't expect every single person you encounter to understand you.



People that come to this forum tend to already have an interest in gambling. Even if they didn't...they would usually describe something, we would say, "Oh, you mean (gambling terminology used for that thing)," and something would click in their brains and they would learn the word that gambling folks use to describe that thing and start using it.



Have you considered the possibility that the casinos might not WANT the average player to know that slot machines are intentionally designed to be habit-forming? That they are specifically designed to stimulate the brain a certain way causing the release of chemicals that make the player want to play more?



Watching it. I'll do another post if this interests me at all. I don't care if the graphics on a slot machine look like a 1970 box TV, I care whether or not it is mathematically beatable.



Oh Jesus :/

1) Never said casinos prefer persistent slots, the previous comment implied that.

2) Are you serious that you think I don't know about near misses? Did you even read my article on Royal Slots? It clearly states Royal Slots has the highest amount of near misses without using an reel manipulation!!! Read up!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZU1I46yJs_nyDv7RnpbOFAWHG8Gj9Zj3DI8-gK2PTD4/edit?usp=drivesdk

3) I don't care what you say about casino games, they aren't some separate entity for the rest of the gaming industries. You need to start respecting game design terminology because they aren't going anywhere and will never be replaced by an industry terms of else they would have already!!! Any game can become a casino game, you just need to have wagers in it & get it approved. Stop kidding yourself that casino games are some magical gaming medium that separates them from all other games 🤐
Math is the only true form of knowledge
USpapergames
USpapergames
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December 13th, 2020 at 1:36:34 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Yes, I agree with this statement and in the Gaming industry the outcome is not determined until the machine is ready for the next bet. Every single approved slot machine has a meter that counts the number of games played. It increments once when the game starts and doesn;t increment again until the next wager is placed and a new game is played. If you win 10 free spins that does not increment the meter 10 times. It is all one game.



Couldn't have explained the game meter system any better myself 👍. It is difficult for people to grasp that gaming machines can be programs that run multiple different games to create rather unique outcomes.
Math is the only true form of knowledge
USpapergames
USpapergames
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December 13th, 2020 at 1:39:06 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

SMB1 or SMB3?

In SMB1, the 1-2 warp is not a special stage at all, it just requires accessing a hidden area in World 1-2. From there, you can go to Worlds 2, 3 or 4.

As far as the 4-2 warp zone is concerned, it's true that you either had to take the vine to a different area to get to it, or to do the pipe glitch (which still requires you hit the block that releases the vine)...but one thing that you will notice in the area with the mushroom trees is that, ACCORDING TO THE GAME, you are still in World 4-2. Therefore, that is just an area in World 4-2 that is hidden, but still part of the Stage called 4-2. It is not a separate stage.

So, your argument there is wrong.

In SMB3, you do go to a different stage, but I fail to see how that is a side game. First of all, the, "Warp Zone," is designated as, "World 9," on the bottom of the screen, so one must conclude it is part of the main game. Secondly, the two warp whistles I would use (there may be more, but you only need two to get to World 8) are, "Behind the curtain," in World 1-3, accessed by doing the wait and drop down trick...and also in the hidden portion of the World 1 castle stage if you fly above everything rather than advancing to that stage's boss.

In other words, while hidden, both warp whistles are accessible via main stages in the game, so I would think, be considered a part of the main game.



Yes that is correct, in SM1 the second maria gets to the hidden area the main game stops and the hidden area where Mario chooses which level to skip would decimal be considered a side game.
Math is the only true form of knowledge

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