Ask the Wizard: Double Super Times Pay

I have heard that this game is out at the Suncoast (nickels) and Harrah's (quarters). I'm intrigued, but the literature at IGT's Web site doesn't answer the key questions, namely:

a) How often does the multiplier come up on the deal and the draw? Are they different?
b) What is the multiplier frequency? Are they different on the deal and the draw?
c) Is it worth it to buy the 1st multiplier? Both? How much is it worth?

You answered these questions very well for the now-classic STP game on your site, and I thank you for that.

Thanks in advance.

Thanks for letting me know about this game. I tried to play it on videopoker.com, but for that game you need a Gold membership, which I don't have. However, I'll still try to get the scoop on the game.

Thank you, O mighty Wiz. I await your results.

Ask and ye shall receive. Here is a preview of my new Double Super Times Pay page.

Quote: Wizard

Thanks for letting me know about this game. I tried to play it on videopoker.com, but for that game you need a Gold membership, which I don't have. However, I'll still try to get the scoop on the game.

If you want to noodle around with the game, you can enter their free contest, where you can play 200 hands of any version of the game, over and over. The paytables look awful, so I wonder if that means that when the game is in casinos, it'll be based on crap games like 8/5 JOB or 7/5 DDB.

The pay tables at the Suncoast 25¢ level were:

9-6 Double Bonus (99.39%)
7-5 Bonus Poker (98.42%)
9-5 Double Double Bonus (99.28%)
20-12-10 Deuces (97.98%)

Quote: Wizard

The pay tables at the Suncoast 25¢ level were:

9-6 Double Bonus (99.39%)
7-5 Bonus Poker (98.42%)
9-5 Double Double Bonus (99.28%)
20-12-10 Deuces (97.98%)

Varies from pretty bad to awful. This game must have insane variance, as well. I doubt that it'll be popular for long---even at the 25 cent level, you could easily burn through a few Benjamins in half an hour.

Why on earth do slot managers, when they install a multi-line, or "gimmick", or pay-more-for-the-bonus VP game, make the paytables so lousy? You would think that if you need 35 quarters to play a hand, you should get paytables at least no WORSE than a regular single-line (5 quarters), since you're risking so much more money. I would assume they pay good money for these new game variations, so why would they shoot themselves in the foot by installing paytables that are so bad that the games won't get any play after the novelty wears off?

God, I wish I had a job running the slot department at any one of the locals' casinos; I could steal everybody's business just by being the one place that doesn't ream out its customers. But I guess collusion works---everybody makes everything incrementally worse at the same time. I hear Reno calling....

Quote: mkl654321

Varies from pretty bad to awful. This game must have insane variance, as well. I doubt that it'll be popular for long---even at the 25 cent level, you could easily burn through a few Benjamins in half an hour.

It is basically the same as regular Super Times Pay, but you get twice the multipliers, but pay 2 extra coins instead of 1. Regular Super Times Pays is a successful game, so I don't see why this couldn't as well. I think it does well because some players prefer variance.

Quote: mkl654321

Why on earth do slot managers, when they install a multi-line, or "gimmick", or pay-more-for-the-bonus VP game, make the paytables so lousy? You would think that if you need 35 quarters to play a hand, you should get paytables at least no WORSE than a regular single-line (5 quarters), since you're risking so much more money. I would assume they pay good money for these new game variations, so why would they shoot themselves in the foot by installing paytables that are so bad that the games won't get any play after the novelty wears off?

I think most of their regular 25¢ games are just as bad there. Around 2003-2004 the Coast casinos pretty much decided to quit trying to be competitive in video poker, let the sharp players go elsewhere, and try to get more out of the recreational players.

Quote: mkl654321

God, I wish I had a job running the slot department at any one of the locals' casinos; I could steal everybody's business just by being the one place that doesn't ream out its customers. But I guess collusion works---everybody makes everything incrementally worse at the same time. I hear Reno calling....

The South Point has very respectable video poker, and a generous player club. They don't get enough credit for it.

Quote: Wizard

Ask and ye shall receive. Here is a preview of my new Double Super Times Pay page.

Wow, that was quick. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

6/5 Bonus for nickels? Bleh.

I'm a big Super Times Pay fan, in part due to the volatility. Unlike most games, you're paid a little extra to take it, and that helps too. Double STP sounds like a game that could really strike my fancy, but I'm not willing to play (for long) at an inferior pay schedule.

> I think it does well because some players prefer variance.
The intermittent reward sometimes has to be a larger chunk of cheese or the mouse will stop pressing the lever.
I'm told that these days the mice seem to want "bonus rounds" and "multipliers".

>The South Point has very respectable video poker, and a generous player club.
>They don't get enough credit for it.
Well, I think its a sweat the money attitude or atleast a sweat the money reputation. 2x odds at Craps; Bet-Spreaders at Blackjack given heat right away; ... it just doesn't seem to make up for large, clean rooms, stunning waitresses, large glasses, solely 3:2 BJ and quite good VP payout tables.

Quote: Wizard

The South Point has very respectable video poker, and a generous player club. They don't get enough credit for it.

Yes, but 3-5 years ago, their inventory and slot club would have been in the middle of the pack, at best. The VP at South Point is mediocre, but it seems "good" because the VP almost everywhere else has deteriorated to "awful".

The South Point has no +EV machines at all, and the best game you can find is NSUD. There are also Triple Bonus and JOB in fullpay versions. The slot club offers a good-for-Vegas 0.3% cashback. HOWEVER, they have started a policy of CANCELING the players' cards of people who only play their best games. So if you play, say, NSUD only, thus garnering a massive 100.03% return with perfect play, they'll tell you you are no longer welcome (unless you switch to playing Texas Tea).

They also have all but killed multiple point days (and playing only on such days will IMMEDIATELY get you crossed off the mailer list, and your card revoked), they no longer have decent promos, and they have totally cut off non-locals from all promotions and offers (I was told this by the slot club manager when I asked her why I hadn't gotten anything in the mail from them for six months).

The sad part is that the mediocre VP, decent slot club, and overt hostility to anyone who tries not to lose too much actually makes them one of the best places in town to play, when Stations and Coast pay 0.1% slot club points, and only on their bad games, at that. The best play in town remains the Palms, with actual positive EV VP and .25% free play on all machines. They bar +EV players from promos (and for all I know, send plainclothes security guards out to the neighborhoods to slash those players' tires), but at least you can still stretch up to 101% with optimal play there.

You make some good points. I agree they have a short fuse for advantage players at the South Point. I've heard lots of complaints from such players about points mysteriously vanishing and not the SP not honoring their own deals. A friend of mine took a case to Gaming over a dispute with them over them not honoring an advertised promotion in his case. However, for recreational players, I think it is a good place to play video poker. Agreed, the Palms is one of the best. We should be having this discussion in the South Point thread.

There is a rule I forgot to factor in. As a reminder, the player has a 1/15 chance of winning a multiplier after the deal, and again after the draw.

In addition, at videopoker.com the rules say, "The multipler appears randomly an average of 1 in 15 games, awards an average multiplier of 4.01, multiplies the win credit by 2x to 10x, except on a dealt royal flush with 7 credits bet multiplies the credits bet by 20x."

Would you interpret that to mean:

A) A dealt royal is always multiplied by 20x.
B) A dealt royal has one 1/15 chance of being multiplied by 20x.
C) A dealt royal has two 1/15 chances of being mutliplied by 20x, for a total multiplier of 40X.
D) The player gets a second chance at the mutliplier only if he didn't get it after the deal.

One thing to keep in mind is Gaming regulation 14.2.070:

Quote: TECHNICAL STANDARDS FOR GAMING DEVICES AND ON-LINE SLOT SYSTEMS

"14.2.070 Jackpot Odds. If the odds of hitting any advertised jackpot that is offered by a gaming device exceeds 100 million to one, the odds of the advertised jackpot must be prominently displayed on the award glass or video display."

If the player could hit the multiplier twice after a dealt royal, the odds would be 1 in 146,191,500. So I think we can rule out option C.

Quote: Wizard

There is a rule I forgot to factor in. As a reminder, the player has a 1/15 chance of winning a multiplier after the deal, and again after the draw.

In addition, at videopoker.com the rules say, "The multipler appears randomly an average of 1 in 15 games, awards an average multiplier of 4.01, multiplies the win credit by 2x to 10x, except on a dealt royal flush with 7 credits bet multiplies the credits bet by 20x."

Would you interpret that to mean:

A) A dealt royal is always multiplied by 20x.
B) A dealt royal has one 1/15 chance of being multiplied by 20x.
C) A dealt royal has two 1/15 chances of being mutliplied by 20x, for a total multiplier of 40X.
D) The player gets a second chance at the mutliplier only if he didn't get it after the deal.

According to the site admin at videopoker.com, it's a combination of (B) and (C) above - TWO shots at the multiplier, and if you get one (any) with a dealt royal, the total multiplier will be 20x. There's some discussion of the subject here.

I wonder if this was programmed into the actual game in casinos.

Quote: fremont4ever

According to the site admin at videopoker.com, it's a combination of (B) and (C) above - TWO shots at the multiplier, and if you get one (any) with a dealt royal, the total multiplier will be 20x. There's some discussion of the subject here.

I wonder if this was programmed into the actual game in casinos.

Here is what is said at videopoker.com.

Quote: Webman

Also to clarify something I mentioned yesterday, when dealt a royal flush (win on all lines), if the multiplier is enabled (for any value) it will automatically switch to a 20x multiplier and auto-hold the win.

Not all dealt royals will be multiplied, but the ones that are will all be 20x wins.

So, would you say that the player has a 2/15 chance a 20x multiplier after a dealt royal? Do you know what Webman's qualfications are to know such rules?

Webman is a reactionary figure and only knows how to fix obvious problems once others bring them up. He is hardly an authority on anything involving their game software, and other than occasionally allowing the bad-mouthing of Rob Singer when he says he won't, he's likely on the phone getting answers most of the day.

That thing about South Point "dropping players" and "points mysteriously missing" etc. I'd like to see one solid piece of evidence that any of that has really happened other than vp forum lore or an extension thereof. I too have 2 friends, one in LV and one from LA, who have made the same claims to me. But whenever I've asked for proof or if they'd take me to the slot club with them to see if I could help in any way or to see for myself, they've always swept it under the rug.

What I don't like about SP is its warehouse-like atmosphere. The M has much more personality and the machines are ultra-modern. A player can win or lose on any machine and it doesn't have to be full-pay. I've played the 5-play 9/7 TDBP machines with multipliers, gas cards, spectacular gift-giving and a whole lot more, and I lost $5000 & $6000 in two visits. I hit some big winners while doing so. I guess this is where "It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether you had a good bet." comes into play. :)

Quote: JerryLogan

That thing about South Point "dropping players" and "points mysteriously missing" etc. I'd like to see one solid piece of evidence that any of that has really happened other than vp forum lore or an extension thereof.

I can't give out a name, but a friend of mine felt so strongly about being wronged at the South Point that he filed a complaint with the Gaming Control Board. Otherwise, it is second and third hand stories. The consensus seems to be that it is advisable to play on non-multiplier days sometimes to not set off red flags, perhaps mixing in some play on the reeled slots.

It was a while ago, but as I recall my experience there is I used to play the NSUD on double-point days, and got good mailers too. However, the mailers suddenly stopped, despite the fact that I played there hard at least once a month. My points seemed unscathed.

I was playing Double Super Times Pay on videopoker.com, and I was playing the 10-Play Triple Double Bonus version. On the first day playing it, I was dealt Ace w/the Kicker with a Super Times Pay multiplier present. I thought it was weird to see whatever the multiplier was (I can't remember) change to "20x", float to the left side of the screen, and then see my Aces w/Kicker hand revealed. I believe I actually had to hold the five cards and draw (I don't think it automatically held them and paid me my jackpot), and won 800,000 credits. Is their version (videopoker.com) exactly like those found at casinos, and do they use the same RNG? I thought it was strange that I hit that on day one. Also, if playing Double Super Times Pay Triple Double Bonus at the casino, can I expect a dealt Aces w/Kicker with any Super Times Pay multiplier, that it automatically pays 20x like when a Royal Flush is dealt?

Are you sure you weren't playing 100 play with a 2x bonus?

Positive. I was playing exactly what my post describes.

Quote: goldendave

I was playing Double Super Times Pay on videopoker.com, and I was playing the 10-Play Triple Double Bonus version. On the first day playing it, I was dealt Ace w/the Kicker with a Super Times Pay multiplier present. I thought it was weird to see whatever the multiplier was (I can't remember) change to "20x", float to the left side of the screen, and then see my Aces w/Kicker hand revealed. I believe I actually had to hold the five cards and draw (I don't think it automatically held them and paid me my jackpot), and won 800,000 credits. Is their version (videopoker.com) exactly like those found at casinos, and do they use the same RNG? I thought it was strange that I hit that on day one. Also, if playing Double Super Times Pay Triple Double Bonus at the casino, can I expect a dealt Aces w/Kicker with any Super Times Pay multiplier, that it automatically pays 20x like when a Royal Flush is dealt?

It's supposed to be just like the casinos (and the rule is when you get a dealt royal flush with any deal multiplier, then the multiplier is augmented to 20X), but it is possible the person that programmed the videopoker.com version programmed the rule like this:

if deal_multiplier > 1 and dealt_hand_value = 4000
then total_multiplier = 20

while it should be like this:

if deal_multiplier > 1 and dealt_hand_value = royal_flush
then total_multiplier = 20

Another example of a programming gaffe, the facebook game "myVegas" offers the real casino game "China Mystery", which is a Konami slot game that is also offered in casinos. In this game, the wild symbol never appears in reel 1. The "myVegas" version shows a wild symbol in reel 1 during its spin animation, which should not be there. The version approved in casinos show a wild symbol at any time in reel 1.

So no, I wouldn't say you can expect the same thing in the casino. If it would also somehow be misprogammed in the casino, it would help the player by a few tenths of a percent though.

I have played a decent amount of Double STP at videopoker.com and it behaved like I would expect in a casino. I would considering pointing this out on the videopoker.com forum as well. The webmaster there can possibly look into it and see if there is an issue.