gamerfreak
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:09:33 AM permalink
Trying to figure out the HE of this game.



1) Does anyone know what other rules are typically set on these GameKing Machines?
2) How much does 2:1 lower the HE?
Ibeatyouraces
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:33:20 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Trying to figure out the HE of this game.



1) Does anyone know what other rules are typically set on these GameKing Machines?
2) How much does 2:1 lower the HE?


Read it CAREFULLY again and you'll see why this is a HORRIBLE game.
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odiousgambit
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:36:34 AM permalink
2 to 1 it ain't
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blick
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:37:42 AM permalink
2 for 1 means even money for blackjack. Horrible game. Don't play it.
keldog
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:39:07 AM permalink
I must be reading something incorrectly, looks good to me lol
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Ibeatyouraces
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:40:21 AM permalink
Quote: keldog

I must be reading something incorrectly, looks good to me lol


2 for 1 is not the same as 2 to 1.
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keldog
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:41:14 AM permalink
Quote: blick

2 for 1 means even money for blackjack. Horrible game. Don't play it.



Wouldn't 1 for 1 mean even money?
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keldog
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:41:50 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

2 for 1 is not the same as 2 to 1.



What exactly does it mean
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Ibeatyouraces
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:43:00 AM permalink
Quote: keldog

What exactly does it mean


2 for 1 pays 2 but takes the original bet making it even money. 2 to 1 pays 2 but you keep the original bet. 1 for 1 would be a push.
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keldog
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:44:28 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

2 for 1 pays 2 but takes the original bet making it even money. 2 to 1 pays 2 but you keep the original bet.



I bet a lot of people play that game under the assumption they are getting 2:1 , unless maybe thats a common term and I'm just out of the loop
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Ibeatyouraces
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:46:06 AM permalink
Quote: keldog

I bet a lot of people play that game under the assumption they are getting 2:1 , unless maybe thats a common term and I'm just out of the loop


Its common on craps tables. Go look at the middle bets. Video poker machines pay on a "for 1" basis.
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gamerfreak
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:47:05 AM permalink
Doh, I knew something was up with the wording

I'm not sure about the other rules (I didn't play), but I think the HE is around 2.5%
darkoz
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:48:46 AM permalink
Quote: keldog

What exactly does it mean



1 for 1 means you recieve back 1 for the 1 you wagered ie you won nothing

2 for 1 means you receive back 2 for the 1 you wagered so you win even money ie you get back the 1 you wagered and the 1 you won

2 to 1 means you receive back 3 for the 1 you wagered or double your money ie you get back the 1 you wagered and 2 you won
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Ibeatyouraces
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:50:13 AM permalink
Toledo used to have a $5, 3 to 2, LS, 6 card charlie machine. Got to play that for a bit before being changed to the awful 2 for 1.
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darkoz
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:50:55 AM permalink
Quote: keldog

I bet a lot of people play that game under the assumption they are getting 2:1 , unless maybe thats a common term and I'm just out of the loop



I find it common enough in video and electronic versions

I also find it common people get confused by it
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gamerfreak
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April 19th, 2018 at 7:55:43 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

1 for 1 means you recieve back 1 for the 1 you wagered ie you won nothing

2 for 1 means you receive back 2 for the 1 you wagered so you win even money ie you get back the 1 you wagered and the 1 you won

2 to 1 means you receive back 3 for the 1 you wagered or double your money ie you get back the 1 you wagered and 2 you won


Does it always stand that x for y is in inclusive of the original bet while x to y is in addition to the original bet?

Edit for clarity
Romes
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April 19th, 2018 at 8:02:25 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Does it always stand that x for y is in inclusive of the original bet while x to y is in addition to the original bet?

Edit for clarity

I always think of it like this:

1) 2 for 1 means you get 2, for them TAKING your 1... so at the end of the day you only win 1.

2) 2 to 1 means you get 2 to every 1 you bet.

To me the "for" means they're "taking" your bet no matter what, like a slot machine. Not sure if I'm making things more confusing or not lol.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
gamerfreak
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April 19th, 2018 at 8:06:16 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Quote: gamerfreak

Does it always stand that x for y is in inclusive of the original bet while x to y is in addition to the original bet?

Edit for clarity

I always think of it like this:

1) 2 for 1 means you get 2, for them TAKING your 1... so at the end of the day you only win 1.

2) 2 to 1 means you get 2 to every 1 you bet.

To me the "for" means they're "taking" your bet no matter what, like a slot machine. Not sure if I'm making things more confusing or not lol.


Yea, that makes sense

1) "2 in exchange for each 1 bet"
2) "2 in addition to each 1 bet"
DRich
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April 19th, 2018 at 8:06:18 AM permalink
The simple rule is that all gaming machines pay "for 1" while table games pay "to 1"
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gamerfreak
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April 19th, 2018 at 8:10:13 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

The simple rule is that all gaming machines pay "for 1" while table games pay "to 1"


I knew so much as it relates to VP. It's helpful to know the terminology now.

But I have never seen GameKing BJ on the east coast, do you why that is?
darkoz
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April 19th, 2018 at 9:27:51 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

I knew so much as it relates to VP. It's helpful to know the terminology now.

But I have never seen GameKing BJ on the east coast, do you why that is?



I do.

They are in some but not all AC casinos

I saw them at the new Resorts World Catskills

And I have seen them in some Pennsylvania casinos

Delaware Park has them I believe as well
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darkoz
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April 19th, 2018 at 9:30:39 AM permalink
AC has the worst ones

Even money no extra rules (no dd split insurance etc) except for a 6 card charlie

Other places do have some options like split and dd on certain hands. Insurance also

None i have seen offer anything other than even money blackjack

(There are some video table simulation games where they have a female dealer video loop I have seen 3:2 but im talking about VP style bartop games and gamekings
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beachbumbabs
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April 19th, 2018 at 9:45:02 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Trying to figure out the HE of this game.



1) Does anyone know what other rules are typically set on these GameKing Machines?
2) How much does 2:1 lower the HE?



I'm editing the title, because 2:1 means 2 TO 1, and you're talking about 2 FOR 1. Hope you don't mind the clarification.

Personally, I think they word it that way on purpose, hoping it will be misunderstood just the way you did. Sneaky.
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Wizard
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April 19th, 2018 at 10:25:26 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Personally, I think they word it that way on purpose, hoping it will be misunderstood just the way you did. Sneaky.



I've never seen a machine that paid on a "to one" basis. At least they are consistent. I find it every annoying how craps has a mixture.
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gordonm888
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April 19th, 2018 at 11:09:49 AM permalink
Another obvious tipoff is :

"Blackjack pays 2 for 1"
"All other wins pay 2 for 1 for each hand"
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FCBLComish
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April 19th, 2018 at 11:12:53 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

The simple rule is that all gaming machines pay "for 1" while table games pay "to 1"



Not necessarily. Pay close attention to table games, predominantly on the Strip that pay FOR 1....

You will see this most often on the craps table.... Center bets.....

"30-1" and "30 for 1" are very different.....
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Ibeatyouraces
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April 19th, 2018 at 11:26:38 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I've never seen a machine that paid on a "to one" basis. At least they are consistent. I find it every annoying how craps has a mixture.


The Toledo one stated 3 to 2 on it.
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gamerfreak
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April 19th, 2018 at 11:33:48 AM permalink
Does 1-1 or 1:1 (a dash or colon) always mean TO not FOR?
darkoz
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April 19th, 2018 at 11:43:05 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Another obvious tipoff is :

"Blackjack pays 2 for 1"
"All other wins pay 2 for 1 for each hand"



Clearly that wording supports Babs belief the intent is to deceive less observant players

Otherwise the verbiage could simply have been all wins including blackjack pay even money
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billryan
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April 19th, 2018 at 12:02:00 PM permalink
That game, while bad for a typical blackjack game, is still better than most slot machines.
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gamerfreak
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April 19th, 2018 at 12:08:28 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

That game, while bad for a typical blackjack game, is still better than most slot machines.


If you can find one that gives points like a slot machine, then you may have found something...
FCBLComish
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April 19th, 2018 at 12:29:23 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Does 1-1 or 1:1 (a dash or colon) always mean TO not FOR?



In everything I have seen, the : or - on given odds has always meant "to"

"1:1", "1 to 1", or "1-1" means you will get even money.

2 for 1 also means even money.
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Venthus
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April 19th, 2018 at 11:16:53 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

If you can find one that gives points like a slot machine, then you may have found something...



Is it that unusual? I've seen a lot of 6/8D CSM-style DAS H17 6:5 machines, and a handful of 3:2s, even in LV.

Granted, the $perpoint tends to be lower; one of my local haunts pays out at 1200$CI per dollar in comps. I should check that one in LV for the comp scale, though I've soured on it since they decided to insult me to my face about wearing a freebie casino jacket while grousing about W-2Gs.

Edit: Slots require 300CIp$.
RS
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April 19th, 2018 at 11:59:13 PM permalink
The : or - means TO. Doesn’t mean FOR.

I believe machines use the “TO one” wording because when you make a $1 bet, you instantly lose that $1, as your credits go down by $1. Then when you win, it pays you back $2.

People don’t read the rules.

Also there’s no way the HE is 2.5% on that game. I’d say more like 4-5%.
Last edited by: RS on Apr 20, 2018
gamerfreak
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April 20th, 2018 at 4:04:45 AM permalink
Quote: Venthus

Is it that unusual? I've seen a lot of 6/8D CSM-style DAS H17 6:5 machines, and a handful of 3:2s, even in LV.

Granted, the $perpoint tends to be lower; one of my local haunts pays out at 1200$CI per dollar in comps. I should check that one in LV for the comp scale, though I've soured on it since they decided to insult me to my face about wearing a freebie casino jacket while grousing about W-2Gs.

Edit: Slots require 300CIp$.


No, it’s not unusual for them to give points, but it would be unusual for it to give points at the same rate/$coin in as a slot.
gamerfreak
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April 20th, 2018 at 6:19:19 AM permalink
Quote: RS

Also there’s no way the HE is 2.5% on that game. I’d say more like 4-5%.


2 Decks
S17
6 Card Charlie

Assuming all other rules are lousy, no surrender, no double after split and no re-split .... I get 2.45% HE

I expected worse as well ... so maybe I am missing a rule?
smoothgrh
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April 21st, 2018 at 2:23:14 AM permalink
Here are the rules for video blackjack with 99.5% payback percentage.

In this game, a blackjack pays 5 for 2, which is the same as 3 to 2.

In all my years of playing Game King machines—since the mid-1990s—I have never found a casino that offered these rules. I have always seen blackjacks paying 2 for 1.

djatc
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April 21st, 2018 at 4:54:31 AM permalink
I wonder if Zenking crushes these machines
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Ibeatyouraces
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April 21st, 2018 at 5:52:03 AM permalink
Quote: smoothgrh

Here are the rules for video blackjack with 99.5% payback percentage.

In this game, a blackjack pays 5 for 2, which is the same as 3 to 2.

In all my years of playing Game King machines—since the mid-1990s—I have never found a casino that offered these rules. I have always seen blackjacks paying 2 for 1.


As I posted earlier in this thread, this is what Toledo had.
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RS
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April 21st, 2018 at 9:24:49 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

2 Decks
S17
6 Card Charlie

Assuming all other rules are lousy, no surrender, no double after split and no re-split .... I get 2.45% HE

I expected worse as well ... so maybe I am missing a rule?


Oh ok, maybe so. I was referring to the game in the OP — no splitting, no doubling.
smoothgrh
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April 21st, 2018 at 10:04:33 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces


As I posted earlier in this thread, this is what Toledo had.



Is that the Hollywood Casino Toledo in Ohio?

As Grudge would say: I still ain't made up my mind yet about Toledo!
Ibeatyouraces
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April 21st, 2018 at 10:42:23 AM permalink
Quote: smoothgrh

Is that the Hollywood Casino Toledo in Ohio?

As Grudge would say: I still ain't made up my mind yet about Toledo!


Yes but it was changed to the standard and lousy 2 for 1 that you find on the other 99.9999999999999% of Game Kings.
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Ibeatyouraces
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April 21st, 2018 at 2:38:33 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Yes but it was changed to the standard and lousy 2 for 1 that you find on the other 99.9999999999999% of Game Kings.


Ok, I just found out they put back the 5 for 2 game. Will have a picture shortly.
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Ibeatyouraces
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April 21st, 2018 at 2:45:01 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Ok, I just found out they put back the 5 for 2 game. Will have a picture shortly.



I put my Marquee card up to show I was there.

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smoothgrh
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April 23rd, 2018 at 12:52:36 PM permalink
Quote: smoothgrh





Someone pointed out that the Blackjack heading is the same font (Korinna) as the Capcom logo—which I was excited to learn is also the font for Jeopardy! answers. And the Mork & Mindy title card! And the intertitle cards for Frasier!
Ibeatyouraces
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April 23rd, 2018 at 1:00:44 PM permalink
What's the reduction in HE for the rule "dealer stands on 6 cards totaling 21 or less" for this SD H17 game that is shuffle every round?

Also, the reduction for the 6 card charlie based on SD H17 and not multi or infinite deck?

Please base these also on perfect composition dependant plays that are listed in appendix 3c. https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/3c/
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Venthus
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April 23rd, 2018 at 4:04:51 PM permalink
Quote: smoothgrh

Quote: smoothgrh





Someone pointed out that the Blackjack heading is the same font (Korinna) as the Capcom logo—which I was excited to learn is also the font for Jeopardy! answers. And the Mork & Mindy title card! And the intertitle cards for Frasier!



I was wondering why that looked familiar... Though my source of recognition is exclusively Capcom (I'll get off any lawns upon request...). The similar color scheme certainly helps.
michael99000
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April 23rd, 2018 at 9:38:41 PM permalink
“Dealer stands on 6 cards totaling 21 or less “

Wow so if I get dealt a 12 vs a dealer 4 and stand ,and the dealers hand goes 4-2-2-2-2-3

He beats me 15 to 12 and I lose ?

How does that rule reduce the house edge? I’d think often times the 7th card would’ve busted the dealers hand.
smoothgrh
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March 6th, 2019 at 4:23:17 PM permalink
Here's some info I found on the interwebs—I have not verified its accuracy, but it has truthiness:

Theoretical payback pct.
99.50—Dealer hits soft 17, Blackjack pays 5 for 2. Split pairs (Ace one card), Double down on 10 or 11. Insurance and surrender offered.
98.30—Dealer stands on 17, Blackjack pays 2 for 1. Split pairs (Ace one card), Double down on 10 or 11. Insurance and surrender offered.
95.70—Dealer stands on 17, Blackjack pays 2 for 1. Split pairs, double down on 10 or 11. No insurance or surrender.
93.20—Dealer stands on 17, Blackjack pays 2 for 1. No splitting or double down. No insurance or surrender.
billryan
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March 6th, 2019 at 5:14:47 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

“Dealer stands on 6 cards totaling 21 or less “

Wow so if I get dealt a 12 vs a dealer 4 and stand ,and the dealers hand goes 4-2-2-2-2-3

He beats me 15 to 12 and I lose ?

How does that rule reduce the house edge? I’d think often times the 7th card would’ve busted the dealers hand.




I believe if the dealer doesn't get 17 on six cards, he loses. Its happened once or twice when I wasn't paying a lot of attention. I know I stayed on 15, dealer had 16 and I got paid.

Some machines also allow you to hit split Aces, while others do not.
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