skywatch
skywatch
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July 6th, 2016 at 1:01:25 AM permalink
I have researched and it seems there are a great number of different counting systems out there for blackjack and I was wondering if there were any good ways to identify a specific one. I have noticed a few players (always the same ones) who vary their bets, sometimes wildly and sometimes in increments, and I was wondering if there was a way to determine if they are using a counting system or just betting randomly and getting lucky.

I have tried counting using the Hi/Low and Ace/5 counts (the only two I'm proficient in) and sometimes it seems they're betting following the system and other times they will not raise their wager on large positive counts but will bet large amounts on really negative counts.
billryan
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July 6th, 2016 at 1:58:04 AM permalink
If they are playing regularly and varying their bets really wildly, chances are they are just poppies. I'd imagine the casino has scooped them out and determined they are no threat. Almost every count I'm aware of is derived from hi lo .
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
JB
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JB
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July 6th, 2016 at 2:28:21 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

I'd imagine the casino has scooped them out and determined they are no threat.


Maybe it's just me, but I get the impression that the question was asked by an employee of said casino, possibly surveillance considering the screen name they chose.
beachbumbabs
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July 6th, 2016 at 2:48:39 AM permalink
Quote: JB

Maybe it's just me, but I get the impression that the question was asked by an employee of said casino, possibly surveillance considering the screen name they chose.



Lol...nope, not just you.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
billryan
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July 6th, 2016 at 4:51:40 AM permalink
Quote: JB

Maybe it's just me, but I get the impression that the question was asked by an employee of said casino, possibly surveillance considering the screen name they chose.





Loose lips sink ships.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
CasinoKiller
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July 22nd, 2016 at 8:09:14 AM permalink
yeah don't tell these f#/%s how we beat them
Last edited by: beachbumbabs on Jul 22, 2016
What goes around always comes back around
Dodsferd
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July 22nd, 2016 at 9:14:55 AM permalink
Quote: skywatch

I have researched and it seems there are a great number of different counting systems out there for blackjack and I was wondering if there were any good ways to identify a specific one. I have noticed a few players (always the same ones) who vary their bets, sometimes wildly and sometimes in increments, and I was wondering if there was a way to determine if they are using a counting system or just betting randomly and getting lucky.

I have tried counting using the Hi/Low and Ace/5 counts (the only two I'm proficient in) and sometimes it seems they're betting following the system and other times they will not raise their wager on large positive counts but will bet large amounts on really negative counts.



If you've been doing the proper research, you should be able to find a few more counting systems.

Whether or not someone can maintain a proper count, isn't really the only factor you need to identify. Keep in mind that the player also needs to understand the appropriate strategy for the variation of Blackjack that is being offered, and when they deviate from the strategy, in favour of an optimal bet variance.

Keeping in mind that there may also be cover play at hand. If you're trying to detect whether someone is an AP or not, track their play and identify if their bankroll and play is something that could be a potential threat to the table's hold.

This is just my own suggestion, for what it's worth.
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
DJTeddyBear
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July 22nd, 2016 at 10:22:55 AM permalink
Quote: CasinoKiller

yeah don't tell these f#/%s how we beat them

Watch your attitude.

There are plenty of people from both sides of the battlefield that are WoO members.
Last edited by: beachbumbabs on Jul 22, 2016
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
CasinoKiller
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July 22nd, 2016 at 10:49:03 AM permalink
Good thing I'm always a step ahead of you guys :)
What goes around always comes back around
charliepatrick
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July 22nd, 2016 at 11:57:00 AM permalink
Does a casino really care whether a Player is counting, cheating or whatever - at the end of the day if they consistently win too much then surely they'd eventually ban them.

I remember many years ago at my local someone who used to vary their bet - it was either £1 or £100. They seemed to vary it according to whim rather than any counting. Another method I've seen is "I haven't seen an Ace for a while".
Dodsferd
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July 22nd, 2016 at 12:19:49 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

Does a casino really care whether a Player is counting, cheating or whatever - at the end of the day if they consistently win too much then surely they'd eventually ban them.

I remember many years ago at my local someone who used to vary their bet - it was either £1 or £100. They seemed to vary it according to whim rather than any counting. Another method I've seen is "I haven't seen an Ace for a while".



Yes absolutely. Counting by itself isn't a danger to the casino. Without bet variation or strategy deviation, all you're doing is getting an approximation on what kinds of cards could come out for either the player or the dealer.

With the proper play into a a package of advantage play, the player can improve the odds of winning to a much more level playing field.

The concern that I have when I am on the job, is whether or not that the suspected player is a danger to the profits of the house. Regardless of what my personal feelings are, I (we, Surveillance) are there for asset protection.

If someone poses a potential threat, then we will do what investigation is necessary to come to a solid conclusion, and relay the information we have gathered to the floor, where they can make the decision to limit play, or ban the person outright.

Cheating however, I have zero tolerance for. I'll do everything in my power to ensure evidence is gathered so that any and all justice can fall swiftly.
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
DJTeddyBear
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July 22nd, 2016 at 12:33:49 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

There are plenty of people from both sides of the battlefield that are WoO members.


I should have said, 'Welcome and respected WoO members."
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
gamerfreak
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July 22nd, 2016 at 12:36:47 PM permalink
Why haven't casinos just taken to dealing from alternating shoe's that get shuffled between hands? I'm sure a system could be devised to do so efficiently. I doubt 99% of ploppies would notice or care.
Dodsferd
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July 22nd, 2016 at 12:55:29 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I should have said, 'Welcome and respected WoO members."


.... O.o

Quote: gamerfreak

Why haven't casinos just taken to dealing from alternating shoe's that get shuffled between hands? I'm sure a system could be devised to do so efficiently. I doubt 99% of ploppies would notice or care.



Continuous Shuffle Machines already dominate the Blackjack tables in the city I work in, and are popular among many others. They do the job of eliminating a shoe pretty well, and keep the hands-per-hour up.

I just can't stand playing on the tables where they're equipped.
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
charliepatrick
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July 22nd, 2016 at 1:15:35 PM permalink
Thanks for your insight - I can see why a casino might want to know how a player keeps winning. As you say cheats (and violent drunks) need kicking out fast. In the city where I am CSMs. are common.
GWAE
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July 22nd, 2016 at 2:40:20 PM permalink
Weak dealer?
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TwoFeathersATL
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July 22nd, 2016 at 7:48:09 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Why haven't casinos just taken to dealing from alternating shoe's that get shuffled between hands? I'm sure a system could be devised to do so efficiently. I doubt 99% of ploppies would notice or care.

That question I found to be interesting. How in god's name can I count a game being dealt from alternating random shoes?

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beachbumbabs
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July 22nd, 2016 at 8:29:24 PM permalink
Quote: CasinoKiller

yeah don't tell these f#/%s how we beat them



This board is pg-rated. Please mask your swears as above. Profanity warning. Thanks.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
gamerfreak
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July 22nd, 2016 at 10:04:15 PM permalink
Quote: Dodsferd

Continuous Shuffle Machines already dominate the Blackjack tables in the city I work in, and are popular among many others. They do the job of eliminating a shoe pretty well, and keep the hands-per-hour up.


What exactly do CSMs do and how are they implemented into the game?
Dodsferd
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July 23rd, 2016 at 12:12:48 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

What exactly do CSMs do and how are they implemented into the game?



The name of them is pretty self explanatory. Decks of cards are pre washed and shuffled, and fed into the machine. The machine will spit out cards to be dealt, as a static shoe would, but allows for any discarded cards to be fed back into the machine and shuffled into the remaining cards.

Effectively, the shoe never ends. There is no shuffle break, and the shoe normally doesn't deviate from a neutral count, as there aren't many instances where an excess number of low or high cards come out to impact the true count.
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
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