Value of Dealer Errors in Pai Gow Poker

Quote: clubflush

UNLAWFUL ACTS AND EQUIPMENT

NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts. It is unlawful for any person:
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2. To place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome.

Just help me understand this a little more clearly.... Does this say that hole carding is illegal? I was under the impression that it was strongly discouraged and might get someone ejected but that the law treated it as a dealer shortcoming, not a criminal act. What is the application of this paragraph?

Yeah, it says it's illegal. But so is driving 1 MPH over the speed limit.

There's no way that you can get arrested for not raising with a K high in 3 card poker if you see the dealer has an Ace in his hand. Now, you could get arrested if you were working with the dealer to see this info.

Everyone is taking things way too far, and too literal. I understand Paigowdan's frustration.

I think everyone should have a gauge of what is unethical. There are ways to take advantage of all different kinds of businesses. When I worked at Toys R Us, a customer would bring an item with a price tag barely stuck on that said $9.99. The item rings up for $19.99. Obviously the customer has switched tags. But when the manager comes over, they say "The item is $19.99, but we'll change it for you this time" Now, the customer has not done anything illegal, but should they be trying to switch price tags on every item every time? A casino is no different. If the price rang up for $4.99 and it was supposed to be $9.99, does anyone complain? No. That's how I look at a dealer paying me when I was supposed to push.

It seems like a few people on this thread are not people I want to be hanging out with. I wonder what your weekly poker games are like...

Quote: FinsRule

Now, the customer has not done anything illegal, but should they be trying to switch price tags on every item every time?

That is (extremely petty) fraud, and it is illegal.

Doc, yep that definately means hole carding is illegal. Also, earlier it was mentioned that intent is needed. Depending on what you mean, it is not. If you see the dealers hole card by accident and change your play you are committing a crime under that statute, even if you weren't trying to see the hole card in the first place. I doubt anyone would prosecute you, but you have clearly violated the "determine the course of play" law.

Clubflush, are you ready for some sick, sick, seriously good parsing?

"1. To alter or misrepresent the outcome of a game or other event on which wagers have been made after the outcome is made sure but before it is revealed to the players."

This rule clearly only applies to PGP before the dealers hand is spread. Once the the cards are dealt the outcome is sure, once the dealer's hand is spread the outcome is revealed to the players.
This rule would only apply during that time period after the cards have been dealt and after the players have set their hands(because players can set their hands multiple ways so the outcome is not sure until the players have set) but before the dealer has revealed his or her hand(revealing the outcome to the players.

So any comments taking place after the dealers hand is revealed do not violate the statute because they don't happen "before it it is revealed to the players"
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"To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game"

This I think would apply to PGP, but only if the dealer is considered a component of a gaming device, a matter that would probably make for an interesting court case.
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"To change or alter the normal outcome of any game played on an interactive gaming system or a mobile gaming system or the way in which the outcome is reported to any participant in the game"

In response to your analysis: The dealer is the one altering the normal outcome of the game. The outcome is determined by the setting of the cards, if the dealer violates the normal outcome than he or she is breaking the law. My words do not and indeed cannot magically cause the dealers hand to be set improperly.
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As I said before I think that I might be found guilty under the manipulation rule, but I tend to believe human beings are not components of devices. But manipulation of a device and altering the normal outcome are different in this case because the dealer is a fully rational self controlled human being, nothing I say(at least nothing im proposing to say) can force the dealer to mis set the cards, that happens only because the dealer willfully chooses to not follow proper procedure. So while I can try to manipulate the dealer, only the dealer, with fully realized free will, can alter the outcome.

OK in the top part you say the outcome is determined when the dealer spreads his cards. Then at the end you say they outcome is determined by the setting of the hand? This is really funny because your counter diction is to justify breaking the law on both sides of the hand set. So if the 1st is true you break the law and cheat in the last part of what you said and if the last is true then you break the law and cheat in the first part of what you said LOL! Either way you’re cheating.

Now as to the shouting of what the cards are... It is established law that you cannot verbally break the law and then blame someone else for your outburst as to the crime... here an example. Although I know this is not a life or death issue, the rule of law is the same... You buy a ticket to a Concert and enter to see that the seats down front are all taken. So you shout out FIRE! FIRE! wanting to get a better seat. Now there is no intent here other than to get a better seat but... Your shouting causes a panic and there is a stampede to the door killing two people. You MR Bigload would go to jail! You would not pass go you, would not get a better seat, you would not collect 200$ LOL.

Even though you had no Intent on killing anyone you would be charged with at least manslaughter and am sure a few dozen other charges. All by opening up your mouth and shouting something that is not true... there was no fire. There is no pai gow; there is a flush, and you manipulated the dealer into breaking the law... you cheated and you will go to jail if you get caught!

Quote: FinsRule

When I worked at Toys R Us, a customer would bring an item with a price tag barely stuck on that said $9.99. The item rings up for $19.99. Obviously the customer has switched tags. ... Now, the customer has not done anything illegal, but should they be trying to switch price tags on every item every time?

The problem comes in the proving of wrong doing. That particular customer may not have been the one to switch the price tags. As a person with a retail store of my own, I have seen this happen. I have had angry customers come in, and switch around price tags, just to make things confusing for me and future customers. However, if someone HAS switched price tags, then, as someone else mentioned, this would be considered illegal. But again, you have to be able to prove it. I may do the same thing, on occasions, in giving somebody the item for the lesser value. But the next time that person is in my store, I'll also dispatch security to keep an eye on them. I don't mind giving someone the benefit of the doubt the first time around, but after that, I'm going to be more careful.

Quote: FinsRule

It seems like a few people on this thread are not people I want to be hanging out with. I wonder what your weekly poker games are like...

Back when I was playing poker, it was considered common decency to inform another player if he was accidentally showing his cards. (I honestly have no idea if that same courtesy is still in place these days.) I once sat next to a guy who, accidentally, flashed his cards at me. I wasn't in that particular hand, but I told him he was flashing his cards. He did so again on the next hand, and I told him again. After telling him 3 times, I wasn't sure what to do. Do I continue playing with the extra knowledge I was getting on his hand? Or do I leave the table and stop playing? Or do I take a middle stance and just try to not look, which was difficult just because of the way he was flashing and the positioning of my own cards. I'd have to wait until he looked at his cards before I could look at my own cards.

I just feel that PGP presents a unique challenge in this aspect of unethical or cheating behavior because of the possibility of dealer errors. No matter how much I might say "bust, bust, bust" to a blackjack dealer, they are not going to draw a card if they have 20. Three-card poker dealers never mistake a 4-5-6 as just a 6 high hand, no matter how much I might say "you have nothing! nothing, damn you!". I can never convince a roulette croupier that the 7 is black and not red.

As I've said before, because of my Asian heritage, I often get non-Asian dealers looking at me to see if they set their hand correctly. I never respond, either affirmatively or negatively. There are numerous reasons for this. One is because I don't feel it is my job. Two is because I am never certain what the exact house way is from casino to casino. Three is because I don't want to ever be accused of some type of collusion with the dealer.

Again, I find all this discussion very fascinating, and still not sure how I feel about it.

P.S. As a side note, in my previous example of the poker situation, being able to see the guy's hole cards actually came to, somewhat, bite me in the ass. In one hand, I happened to see that he was holding two hearts, one being the Ace. I myself had two lower hearts. The flop came out with two hears, and a draw, for me, to a straight flush. There was minimal action, and on the river, I caught the straight flush, which also gave him the Ace-high flush. Since he acted after me, I knew I could check, he would bet his ace-high flush, and then I could raise him with my nut hand, thus getting an extra bet out of him. I did check, and he checked as well. Shockers. Turned out he had the ace of hearts, and the other card was a diamond. Doh!

if you are playing poker with a player who flashes his cards and feel it is your ethical responsibility to tell him, never alert him to the fact if you are currently involved in that particular hand with him. wait for another occasion in which he flashes his cards in a hand you are not involved in. this prevents any ill feelings if he loses that hand to you, possibly accusing you of cheating for using that knowledge to your advantage.

At a friendly game, I'd warn any player he's flashing his cards; but I woulnd't refrain from using any advantage from having seen them.

At a tournamnet, though, I would say nothing.

We players never set the dealers hands. If the dealer missets his hand in my favor I have no official responsibility to point this out to the house. If the dealer missets his hand against me, I can point this out to either the dealer or pit boss. But it is up to the pit boss to determine if the hand will now be reset, not up to me. When I leave a casino after playing hours of pai gow the only hands i remember are usually the dealers missets.