Value of Dealer Errors in Pai Gow Poker

Hey all,

I was recently playing pai gow poker and I saw a couple of mistakes by different dealers.

But one in particular was flabbergasting. She was new and nearly incapable of seeing straights and flushes especially when there were pairs available. It was even better when the bug was involved. She would routinely play things like 77 in the back and A8 up top instead of 45678 with A7. As you can imagine this caused a large number of hands to go my way. Even better was that if (in the example above) i had 66 and A8 I could point out the straight and salvage the push. It was also pretty easy to encourage this. I made a habit of calling the dealers hand when it was an obvious pai gow or pair plus high cards, then I could call the straights or pairs as it helped my hand and the dealer appreciated the help.

What I am wondering is at what point these mistakes can create an overall player advantage?

By the way, I realize that some will consider these strategies unethical, I won't disagree but I will say that the minute I see a casino back off a player who is drunk or steaming badly, I will think about changing my ways.

Thanks

Not fixing it when a dealer sets a hand wrong - Fine

Telling a dealer to set their hand wrong - Unethical

I know, you weren't asking.

If you are able to influence the dealer to set the hand the way you want on most questionable situations, you undeniably have a player advantage. How much - impossible to know.

I guess what Im wondering is how often mistakes need to happen to make a significant difference. All dealers make mistakes from time to time, but at what point does it flip the advantage: once an hour, twice, five times?

Quote: FinsRule

Not fixing it when a dealer sets a hand wrong - Fine

Telling a dealer to set their hand wrong - Unethical

I know, you weren't asking.

If you are able to influence the dealer to set the hand the way you want on most questionable situations, you undeniably have a player advantage. How much - impossible to know.

Maybe I read it wrong, but it sounded like he was pointing out the dealer error when it helped him, and ignoring the dealer error when that helped him. At no point was he instructing the dealer to set the hands incorrectly. I'm not sure if you were alleging that he was.

Actually he read it right, I do both of those things you said. If the dealer has a flush with 92 or pair of nines with A2 I will purposefully miscall the hand to my advantage as soon as it is spread. It doesn't always work(I will feign that I didnt see the flush/straight) but it often salvages a push from a loss. Again, I wont argue with anyone who says this is unethical, I've just always been of attitude that it is the houses responsibility to run their game, and it is my goal to try to win by any legal means necessary. Once casinos stop offering games to drunks I'll stop taking advantage of stupid dealers.

But anyway, how many errors of this type are needed in, say, a four hour period to turn around the house edge.

Quote: bigtoad

I guess what Im wondering is how often mistakes need to happen to make a significant difference. All dealers make mistakes from time to time, but at what point does it flip the advantage: once an hour, twice, five times?

take the HE times how many hands you get an hour (assume 100 hands for a rough estimate) and thats about how many mistakes you need an hour to turn the game in your favor.

Quote: bigtoad

What I am wondering is at what point these mistakes can create an overall player advantage?

Bigtoad,
Actually, a good bit. I'm a dealer who has invented a Pai Gow game that is out in casinos, and in doing the research, I got the numbers on just using "good" versus "bad" house ways. In the same way, a dealer hand setting error is equivelant to a house way hand setting error. It is simply a hand setting error.

In the hand you described (A7/87654 versus A8/77654), the straight would have an EV of .42 (or NET WIN 42 hands per 100 hands), while the A8/77xxx setting would lose 13 hands per 100. That's Huge, as a pair of 7's is essentially a low pair and a weak hand, while a straight with an ace top is a very solid hand.

If you look at it as a full table of 6 players each playing $10 on the main bet, the straight would net about +$20, and the pair of 7's would lose about $10, for a swing of $30 per error instance. (these are approximations to the betting unit used; ballpark, but usable.) If he/she made such a mistake once an hour, say for $30 player swing per hour, in a full 8 hour shift it would be $240, and for a 24-hour period (representing three lousy dealers) it would be $720 to the casino - just unacceptable. For one player it could be a $10 per hour, although a loss to a win is worth $20.

Please note that this situation really can't be a player expectation at a casino, although it is occasionally known to happen with break-ins. It'll get caught soon enough by either surveillance or other players - and dealers learn a game quickly, dealing it 8 hours a day five days a week, so it's a small window.

And I do politely and quickly point out dealer errors that favor the players while the hand is still being set, if I can. I view taking money via dealer errors a Karmic no-no, and I have absolutely NO apologies for denying any other player such dirty money. I also don't like seeing new dealers learning a game get into trouble. (But Veteran dealers with an attitude problem I have no problem seeing fall down.)

House way quality also has an effect. In comparing a poor house way to an optimized house way, the HE difference can be 0.1% to 0.2%, which can represent a point or two in table hold.

Also...
Shufflemaster, Inc did something very interesting that I saw at last year's G2E (Global Gaming Expo) Convention.

They have - on their new "inlaid" table shufflers for PGP and TCP, a feature that gives the proper House way setting for the dealer's hand. It displays the two cards that go up into the dealer's two-card side, forcing the full hand to always be properly set.

Once the house way is programmed into the system, a tiny screen on the table flashes the dealer's hand setting (e.g., KcQd for the two-card side), and boom - no fuss, no muss. Since the shuffler knows both the house way and the first hand position dealt, it knows the dealer's cards and how it's to be set.

It's a bit of overkill, especially because dealers quickly learn the house way and how to read 7 cards, but is very useful for some houses.

Plus, if you had a very complicated and powerful house way, it would be a breeze to implement.

I see nothing wrong with Bigtoad's habit of talking to himself, and calling the wrong hand for the dealer in the process. If the dealer chooses to listen to someone's mutterings, particularly when that muttering is so often wrong, that's the dealer's and casino's problem.

Quote: Paigowdan

...And I do politely and quickly point out dealer errors that favor the players while the hand is still being set, if I can. I view taking money via dealer errors a Karmic no-no, and I have absolutely NO apologies for denying any other player such dirty money. I also don't like seeing new dealers learning a game get into trouble. (But Veteran dealers with an attitude problem I have no problem seeing fall down.)

Dan, that sounds like you're talking about when you're PLAYING. If it's while you're on the clock, standing behing a dealer, that's one thing. But if you're sitting playing (and I assume at a different casino than where you work), why would you want to help the competition? Unless it's at an EZ Pai Gow table. I'll let you slide on that one...

FYI: For those that missed the memo, Dan invented EZ Pai Gow, and it would help the game's future if he prevents mistakes at that table.

Wow, thanks. That is more significant than I thought. If I am reading your correctly, and one or two errors per hour make a major difference(1%+), it creates alot of good situations. On my last trip to Reno I ran into to the one horrible dealer I mentioned, but also 2 other dealers that made occasional(1-2 an hour)errors. I remember one hand where a decent dealer, on the last hand of the down, played broadway plus 85 as a pai gow(KQ plus A high) and the dealer coming in looked at it and said nothing(and again if I hadnt had a winner against the pai gow, I would have called the straight to gain a push).

Again, I think you have to be willing to push(cross?) the line and find ways to confuse the dealer or lull them into believing that you are running the game. But I believe that some medium and nearly all small joints have dealers that fall into these catagories.

Some Houseways are (relatively) complicated. For example, at Firekeepers in Battle Creek, MI, the houseway for 2 pair with a straight or flush is to play the two pair. Unless the straight/flush can be played with Ax up. Unless the two pair are high/med or better. Unless the straight is Q high or better with an Ax on top. Unless it's Tuesday. Unless...

When I played there, I was sitting alone at the table. The dealer, floor, and I must've spent 5 minutes with the houseway card trying to find our way through all the logic gates figuring out how to set 10,10,J,Q,K,A,Joker (10 is a mid pair). The card did not distinguish a pair of Aces from a high pair, so that added confusion. I would have just given up, but my hand was 2,3,3,4,4,5,7. So I pretty desperately wanted the Ax up in the dealer's hand. He ended up playing it as AA/1010. Oh, well.

Quote: rdw4potus

Some Houseways are (relatively) complicated. For example, at Firekeepers in Battle Creek, MI, the houseway for 2 pair with a straight or flush is to play the two pair. Unless the straight/flush can be played with Ax up. Unless the two pair are high/med or better. Unless the straight is Q high or better with an Ax on top. Unless it's Tuesday. Unless...

When I played there, I was sitting alone at the table. The dealer, floor, and I must've spent 5 minutes with the houseway card trying to find our way through all the logic gates figuring out how to set 10,10,J,Q,K,A,Joker (10 is a mid pair). The card did not distinguish a pair of Aces from a high pair, so that added confusion. I would have just given up, but my hand was 2,3,3,4,4,5,7. So I pretty desperately wanted the Ax up in the dealer's hand. He ended up playing it as AA/1010. Oh, well.

Pair of 10's for the low and A-10 straight for the high is how I would have set it.

Quote: miplet

Pair of 10's for the low and A-10 straight for the high is how I would have set it.

LOL! None of us saw that possibility. I guess the A and Joker both ended up in the high, so the straight was there, but the Joker was next to the ace and not in the 10 spot.

To the extent that a PGP dealer, floor supervisor, and an experienced (but burned-out) player all had such a hard time following the houseway that they all overlooked the best option, I will re-stress that some houseways are overly complicated.

Quote: bigtoad

I guess what Im wondering is how often mistakes need to happen to make a significant difference. All dealers make mistakes from time to time, but at what point does it flip the advantage: once an hour, twice, five times?

Once an hour is plenty for a player's edge - if the error converts a good hand to a bad one; that makes it a player positive. At one misplay in 30 hands per Pai Gow hour, that's a 3.33% player swing, - AND it's a 6.67% swing if you go from a LOSS to a WIN because of the hand mis-set. with a 2.3% house edge (typical) you'd go up to a 1% player's edge, or up to a 5.3% edge on a loss-to-win swing.

HOWEVER, many hand mis-sets are essentially neutral: the hand just described (AAKQJ1010) is VERY strong and essentially an equivelant monster if set as A-10/AKQJ10 - it's the best straight with an ace-10 for the top. With a Joker (A*KQJ1010) you have the straight with a pair of ten's up - miplet is right on.

Also, the hand 6554332 is better set as a 53/65432 straight than as two pairs 64/55332, as both tops are equally worthless, but the straight is a much stronger bottom than two little pairs kept together. In this case a dealer's mistake actually increases his hand, if the dealer's two-pair rule is ignored, as the typical house way is wrong on that!

So..we don't NEED dealer's mistakes...we need to play at casinos that use lousy house ways!! Always splitting pairs regardless of the two-card side....playing a hand as two pairs instead of playing a straight or flush with AQ or AK top in those cases....splitting four of a kind 7's or 8's with a KQ for the top (KQ777732=KQ/7777x, not 77/77KQx)...etc. The effect is smaller, but also adds up.

And thanks to DJteddybear, mentioning EZpg. But....Off the clock or not, I take a "WWJD" approach to dealer's mistakes.

Quote: Paigowdan

Also, the hand 6554332 is better set as a 53/65432 straight than as two pairs 64/55332, as both tops are equally worthless, but the straight is a much stronger bottom than two little pairs kept together. In this case a dealer's mistake actually increases his hand, if the dealer's two-pair rule is ignored, as the typical house way is wrong on that!

Isn't the typical houseway with two small pairs and no top to split the pairs and play 55642/33?

While many mistakes are value neutral, if your right about one or two mistakes an hour creating PA then I know that I have been in situations where I have been betting 50-100/hand without any observation from the floor(obv. they aren't worried about PA but in smaller joints the floor tends to sweat black chip play) for $15-$30/hr+ in advantage. If i can combine, say, 1.5hrs of that with 2.5hrs of regular play I believe that PGP players who are diligent in scouting dealers and use the right banter can create pretty sweet situations that, even if they are slightly cash negative, have a large net gain with comps and may be cash positive.

Quote: bigtoad

I made a habit of calling the dealers hand when it was an obvious pai gow or pair plus high cards, then I could call the straights or pairs as it helped my hand and the dealer appreciated the help.

My personal problem with this is when someone notifies a dealer that his hand is set wrong, because it will help them (either become a push or a win), but at the same time hurts other players at the table. In some cases, the person calling out the mis-set dealer's hand allows themselves a push, while all the other players hands become losses. On the one hand, I'd like to see a community spirit that allows the person to just suck up the loss while allowing the majority of other players the push, but on the other hand, I can understand why someone would not want to lose their bet, regardless of what other people are doing.

On the other hand, it's been my experience that a person calling out a mis-set hand isn't usually someone who is doing it necessarily intentionally. They just happen to notice something, and say it out loud. Like when the dealer's cards are flipped over. I have a tendency to yell out "Pai Gow" just for the sake of urging the Pai Gow Gods (a little help, Dan?) to give the dealer a bad hand. But then a player will say, no, there's a straight there. Now I have no idea if the dealer would have mis-set the hand, because the player clearly pointed out the straight.

On the flip side, because of my Asian heritage, I have played in casinos where the game is obviously new and/or with dealers who are new to the game. It is amazing to me how many times the dealer will look to me for confirmation on the way they have set the hand. It is further amazing to me since I have no clue exactly what the house rules are. Apparently, the way I look automatically imparts a sense of experience and knowledge about the game. Even so, I've only been willing to just barely nod if the hand seems to be set in the correct way, and if it's two pair, I just mention the cheat sheet, which the dealer then looks at.

Quote: rdw4potus

Isn't the typical houseway with two small pairs and no top to split the pairs and play 55642/33?

Yeah, but that might be HOUSE way - and House way is typically designed to favor whatever will be best vs multiple players. As a player setting it that way, with two easily beaten hands, you're still PRAYING for a push. Set it 65432/53 and your lost is dead, but your high is very strong to the point where you have a very good shot at a push.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Yeah, but that might be HOUSE way - and House way is typically designed to favor whatever will be best vs multiple players. As a player setting it that way, with two easily beaten hands, you're still PRAYING for a push. Set it 65432/53 and your lost is dead, but your high is very strong to the point where you have a very good shot at a push.

I agree. I was just trying to point out that neither the player or the house would ever set it as two pairs 64/55332.

Quote: bigtoad

While many mistakes are value neutral, if your right about one or two mistakes an hour creating PA then I know that I have been in situations where I have been betting 50-100/hand without any observation from the floor(obv. they aren't worried about PA but in smaller joints the floor tends to sweat black chip play) for $15-$30/hr+ in advantage. If i can combine, say, 1.5hrs of that with 2.5hrs of regular play I believe that PGP players who are diligent in scouting dealers and use the right banter can create pretty sweet situations that, even if they are slightly cash negative, have a large net gain with comps and may be cash positive.

I think that Pai Gow Poker presents a unique challenge to the casino management. The pit bosses have a lot to do without having to constantly overlook the shoulder of one of the dealers in the pit. And, in some cases, the pit bosses are no more knowledgeable about the game than the player. That leaves the eyes in the sky, and those in security are not knowledgeable about the game either. (I figure that security is mainly looking for things like post-betting, swiping chips, obvious theft by the dealer and/or players, etc, etc.)

You might be able to add to this a factor of misplaced trust in the game. Not in the dealers, players, cards, or not making a mistake. But the simple fact that, win or lose, the casino ALWAYS makes money. Obviously, those of us that know math are going to be understanding of the fact that this isn't the case with constant, repeated mistakes. But to some managerial positions, a simple explanation of: "50% of the time, the player loses. The other 50% of the time, the house gets 5%. So, technically, the house never loses." might give a false sense of security to those in middle management, such as pit bosses. It's easy to see how someone without full knowledge of mathematics could be led to the simple conclusion that the house can't possibly lose, because even when the players lose, they house gets a cut.

Quote: rdw4potus

Isn't the typical houseway with two small pairs and no top to split the pairs and play 55642/33?

rdw4potus

Actually, No...generally, it is to ALWAYS keep all 6's and less together, regardless of top, because houses want to quickly "push through" volitile hands, to avoid hands that mix a LOT of wins and loses that only cancel each other out with a lot of dealer rack activity - and dealer error. This way, by using "pushy hand settings," they are closer to the next "solid winner hand" for the house. This is why houses keep two small pairs together with no top: a player splitting Aces and Kings would not beat the house, and the house would more quickly push to the next killer hand.

However, for the player it is best to split ALL low pairs with a Q or less top, because the pair top is enough of a stopper to chance a win against an opponent's weak pai gow or smaller one pair hand.

(I FEEL LIKE POSTING A 100% MATHEMATICALLY WORKED-OUT HOUSE WAY - FOR THE PLAYERS TO USE TO SLAUGHTER SUCH HOUSES. Should I just post the worked out PG strategy? I'll do it for your review, guys!)

Anyway, the hand described (6554332)is best played as a straight for the house, - if a straight is present with two tiny pairs because it has no top.

So... for this reason, also interesting is the flush hand Kd-9d-8d-5d-5c-4h-4d: play as two pairs 5’s and 4’s with K-9 up, and ignore the flush, because two little pairs with even a K top is a superior play than a straight or flush with no top. The same hand with a Jd as the face card diamond would indicate to play the flush.

You know...if you guys want to see a REALLY usefull Pai Gow hand-setting calculator, go to:

www.beatingbonuses.com/pgcalc.htm

It looks like there's a difference in the two-pair rule that breaks down almost on geographic lines.

Based on the subset of houseways available at https://wizardofodds.com/paigowpoker, the NV casinos never split low pairs. But the Atlantic City, MN, and BC casinos split low pairs unless they have an A or K to put in the 2 card hand. That is also the houseway everywhere I've played in the Midwest (Chicagoland, MI, southern IN, MN, WI).


Any idea what the difference is to the house take?

I'd be very interested in seeing your mathematical strategy (even just for pai gow hands).

Konceptum,

I should have noted that I only miscall hands when Im playing heads up. In fact I had just the situation you describe happen to my detriment on my last trip. I suppose ideally if you find a dealer that makes alot of errors you would try to play heads up for speed and to limit other player interfence.

Then you should bank as often as possible. (Well, you should anyway, but...)

Most players that don't bank, won't play if a player is banking. Some will even go to a different table. That's one way to get heads up!

rdw4potus: "It looks like there's a difference in the two-pair rule that breaks down almost on geographic lines."

VERY interesting point!! Absolutely right!

In reviewing house strategies from Atlantic City - they were just different and BETTER, particularly in two-pair handling - which makes up for MOST of the possible improvement of the strategies.
Strategies there were impressive (the Claridge had two pair handling that kept pairs like 8's and 3's and 7's and 4's with a King top - which would beat the Las vegas style "two low pairs together" while defending against monster two pairs split. Just Superior.

Next come the handling of straights and flushes with two pairs, followed by full house handling (do NOT break up a full house if the pair part is 5's or less and you have an AK or AQ), then four of a kind, which was atrocious, but so rare that that that didn't matter anyway - but it does.

But the problem in the Real-World Casino Environment is that any ratcheting up of house way improvements also risks a "dealer error breakdown" scenario, or where the dealer becomes "flummoxed" by the strategy itself. ("Flummoxed" is a good description! Some newbie dealers cannot handle much complexity on a game - and FORGET about finding a good crap dealer!)

Shufflemaster handled this by introducing a computer chip in their PG shufflers, where you load the fancy house way strategy, and Zap - the hand setting is immediately displayed for the dealer on every deal! Again, I saw this at G2E last year - and it went nowhere, to my surprise....

But another quirk entered the mix...

I spoke with my game distributor's VP of product development (Rob Scott of DEQ systems), and he said, "Dan...do NOT strengthen the house way for the casinos at this point!!! Just use whatever house way they're already using..it'll work BETTER..."

So I said why?? He said:

1. Dealer re-training is a nightmare! If we can drop a Pai Gow game into a house using the same house way strategy that they're already trained on, then there is no table pit "down time" for dealer training - which is a mess anyway![Excellent point #1].

2. The house edge on EZpg is 2.4% with an average house way, and so the average table hold is 18% to 20%. If you demand they use a stronger house way, players are going to FEEL getting BEATEN, and will NOT like it when table hold hits 26%. Players go to a casino for some fun card-playing and drinks, they do NOT go there to have TOURNAMENT level dealers showing them up and taking them of cash through extra wins and tournament-level blood battles. Going up to 2.8 or 3.0% HE through a mathematically perfect house way can equate to a 25% or 30% table hold, [even though we DID this work!] at which point players will feel their blood loss and bruises, and abandon the game! [Excellent point #2]

3. Casino managers and their shift managers do not like change and extra work! Why invoke it if it ain't necessary!! They won't BUY the product if it causes extra work or headaches. VEGAS IS OLD SCHOOL IN THE PIT! [Excellent point #3].

4. Most Pai Gow Players are like most Blackjack players, that they don't care about doing extra math homework to learn better strategy, so a better house strategy isn't necessary anyway!!! (When was the last time a Blackjack dealer saw a player actually hit a soft-18 against a dealer's nine, double an A-4 against a dealer's 5, or hit a 12 against a dealer's 3? Soooo.....as a Pai Gow dealer, when was the last time I saw a Pai Gow Player Keep 7's and 6's together with a KJ top, play the Ace-high flush with an AQ top instead of two pairs, or keep four-of-a-kind jacks together with an AQ top?) Pai Gow players learn their strategy from the house strategy that they SEE, so if we don't CHANGE it, then we don't NEED to change it - so WHY change it! [Excellent point #4!]

So...I use these strategies to play Pai Gow myself, to essentially face a 0% house edge, if I stay away from the tempting bonus bets and free drinks from the porn star cocktail waitresses, - after which I cannot escape the house edge anyway, but I'm there to have fun. So...after three Miller MGD's then I am betting dimes on the bonus bets....

I STILL think casinos and players should standardize by good play in PGP...


And If you want to see the numbers I'm talking about from the Missouri Gaming commission, they post the numbers BY CASINO HOUSE and BY TABLE TYPE ("Three Card Poker," "EZ Pai Gow" etc.) - keeping NOTHING a secret. The EZ Pai Gow tablea are in the Ameristar Casinos there...(God Bless them)...go to:

http://www.mgc.dps.mo.gov/2010_fin/FY10_slot_table.htm, and click Apr 2010, May 2010.

When Casino Queen in East St. Louis had Pai Gow, the pit boss had to personally check every hand. They don't have the game anymore for obvious reasons.

Quote: bigtoad

Hey all,

I was recently playing pai gow poker and I saw a couple of mistakes by different dealers.

But one in particular was flabbergasting. She was new and nearly incapable of seeing straights and flushes especially when there were pairs available. It was even better when the bug was involved. She would routinely play things like 77 in the back and A8 up top instead of 45678 with A7. As you can imagine this caused a large number of hands to go my way. Even better was that if (in the example above) i had 66 and A8 I could point out the straight and salvage the push. It was also pretty easy to encourage this. I made a habit of calling the dealers hand when it was an obvious pai gow or pair plus high cards, then I could call the straights or pairs as it helped my hand and the dealer appreciated the help.

What I am wondering is at what point these mistakes can create an overall player advantage?

By the way, I realize that some will consider these strategies unethical, I won't disagree but I will say that the minute I see a casino back off a player who is drunk or steaming badly, I will think about changing my ways.

Thanks

Just this week I cut a player off. He was up $600. Told my boss "I cut him off because he was having issues with placing his bet in the betting spot" Her response "Good, we also need to make sure he does not give all that back. Watch him and if he starts betting over his norm politely tell him to slow down. We don’t want the drinking to take his money" This happens all the time you just don’t notice it. I can’t tell you how many times I have walked up to a drunken player and said. "Whoa Buddy slowdown there or "she’s killing ya man slowdown" Think about this one... am sure we have all heard this from a floor personal... "Hey now don’t give that all back." We won’t come right out and tell you to stop betting so much or cut you off because you went from 25 to 500 a hand after a few drinks but we do a lot to help drunken players (well the nice ones) lose less. As far as steaming, there already pissed off, we would make it worse by pointing out they are stupid for better so much on a losing streak. You don’t throw matches on gasoline! There’s not much we can do there other then watch the train wreck. Although I have tried, I have seen my Shift Supervisor do the same.

Quote: bigtoad

Actually he read it right, I do both of those things you said. If the dealer has a flush with 92 or pair of nines with A2 I will purposefully miscall the hand to my advantage as soon as it is spread. It doesn't always work(I will feign that I didnt see the flush/straight) but it often salvages a push from a loss. Again, I wont argue with anyone who says this is unethical, I've just always been of attitude that it is the houses responsibility to run their game, and it is my goal to try to win by any legal means necessary. Once casinos stop offering games to drunks I'll stop taking advantage of stupid dealers.

But anyway, how many errors of this type are needed in, say, a four hour period to turn around the house edge.

IMOP this is cheating. It’s one thing for you to mistake a hand when the dealer 1st shows it. It’s a whole other deal when you are doing it with the intent of winning or pushing the hand because you don’t want to lose. Doing this every time to bring the house edge down or the edge in your favor is well... it’s wrong and it’s dishonest.

Now you may say" well the stupid dealer should know better and know how to set their hands.

To that I will say... Well the stupid Player should know better... table games by LAW are designed for you to lose.

By your logic here, if you saw a drunk on the street passed out, it would be ok for you to take his wallet. I mean it’s his fault he’s drunk and stupid, he should be more responsible. He deserves to have his wallet taken.

Am sure this will invoke you to flame me here but this IMPO. I also know that this post will not stop you from doing it. But it might stop those who read it from every trying it in the 1st place. You’re manipulating the "normal" outcome of a table game to your advantage. This is the definition of cheating.

Quote: clubflush

By your logic here, if you saw a drunk on the street passed out, it would be ok for you to take his wallet. I mean it’s his fault he’s drunk and stupid, he should be more responsible. He deserves to have his wallet taken.

No. But, if the drunk person was handing out money to people walking by, is it your responsibility to assess how drunk the person is, and whether or not they are in the right state of mind, and stop them from giving away the money?

Bars will allow a peson who has clearly already had some drinks, to come in and have a few more drinks, and take their money.

Restaurants will allow a person who has clearly already eaten, to come in and order some more food, and take their money.

And casinos will allow a person who has clearly already gambled and lost, to come in and gamble some more, and take their money.

It's not ok to reach across the table and take chips out of the rack. But if the dealer gives you those chips, how can this be the player's fault? There are all kinds of situations that can and do occur in which money is given to the players, freely and of the casino's own free will, and with the active consent of management. So, each time something like this happens, are we as players required to give the money back and insist that the casino not give us this money?

Instance: A simple Pai Gow Poker table. 4 players. The shuffling machine breaks down, again, for the 4th time in a row. Players are agitated, and one players comments about going to another casino where the machines don't break down as often and slow down the game. (As a side note, I'm always amused when people complain about Pai Gow Poker being slowed down. It's a slow game to begin with. Order another drink and shut up.) The Pit Boss, currently at the table fussing with the shuffling machine, worries about losing the players. At this point, she feels like she needs to change out the decks of cards in order to stop the shuffling machine from malfunctioning. This means another delay, and another groan from the players. So, the Pit Boss, on the currently mis-dealt hand, declares that everybody wins, and informs the dealer to pay off everybody as winners. Wow. Talk about good karma, and good publicity on the part of the casino. (Yes, this happened to me.)

Now imagine a Pai Gow Poker table in which the dealer sets the hand wrong, and in such a way that all the players are winners. As the dealer is halfway through paying the players, the pit boss notices the error, and informs the dealer, having the dealer correct the hand, and now everybody either pushes or loses. Some of the paid players have already taken their winnings, some haven't, and the remaining players are groaning. So, pit boss says, just go ahead and pay everybody as a winner, and then to the dealer, just be more vigilant in looking for straights and flushes. Again, good karma and good publicity for the casino. (Yes, this happened to me as well.)

So, if the dealer mis-sets a hand, and pays off players, how do I know that the dealer really mis-set the hand? Maybe the dealer is involved in some sort of promotion for the players benefits? Maybe the house way is really different at this particular casino? I could call attention to it and ask for clarification, but then I would have to all attention to and ask for clarification on all hands, because who is to say that the hand where the dealer wins wasn't mis-set as well? If I wouldn't ask the casinos if they are sure about giving me the money in the previous instances, why would I do so in these? And then shouldn't I also question the legitimacy of comps? When the pit boss offers to pay for a buffet, should I insist that this is just plain wrong and an added expense to the casino that they really can't afford and this is like stealing? Or do I just accept the comp? As I accepted the other times when the casino "gave" me money.

So is it right or wrong to not tell the dealer they mis-set a hand? I have no idea. Maybe it's this Pai Gow Poker game that is so darn confusing and with too many rules that causes such problems. Do similar things happen at blackjack? I'm not an avid blackjack player, but has anybody played blackjack and had a dealer hit a 19 and bust out, only to have the other players state, oh no, you shouldn't have hit that hand. Back it up and take the money from the losers? Is blackjack an easier, or maybe just a more entrenched, game that such accidents do not occur?

In Pai Gow Poker, if a player mis-sets a hand, the casino does not correct the hand for the player, and then pay him off if he was to be a winner. In PGP's early days, I remember pit bosses giving everybody one "do-over", since it was such a new game and everybody mis-set their hand at least one. But now, it appears that everybody is assumed to know how to play the game. Oh yes, sometimes you can still get away with asking the pit boss for some leniency on a mis-set hand, and if you've been nice enough, you usually get away with it. But how come, when a player has been drinking, and has mis-set their hand twice, the pit boss and dealer don't just say, oh come now, you're obviously drunk, you shouldn't play anymore, because we wouldn't want you to lose any more money?

Clearly, the issue is that PGP has so many different hands and possibilities and variants, that mistakes are easy to make, even for veteran players and dealers, but perhaps especially if one is tired, bored, drunk, high, or otherwise. The answer is simple: RapidPGP: an all electronic PaiGow Poker table, with no actual cards, just a digital interface. The cards will be dealt to each player, displayed on their own screen. The house's hand will be set according to the pre-instructed house way, and will never be incorrect. To prevent players from having their hand mis-set, their hand will automatically be set according to the house way as well. At which point, they can press 'OK', and their hand will be done. Once all players have pressed 'OK', the hands are revealed and payouts made. The players have no need to re-set their hand in any way since the optimum calculations have already been made.

"You’re manipulating the "normal" outcome of a table game to your advantage. This is the definition of cheating."

This is silly and not true. If it were then that would mean that if the dealer mis set his hand of his own accord and I didnt correct him, I would be cheating.

Congratulations on backing off a drunk player(seriously), I've never seen it(unless the player was obnoxious and causing trouble). Also, you cant excuse not backing off the steamer because he's steaming; if the drunk(who is in an altered mind state) can be backed off than so can the steamer.

Although I like what the poster above me said about the drunk on the street question, let me add some points.

The dealer in a casino is paid money to correctly deal pai gow, they have no other purpose while they're in the box other than to facilitate the game in the manner proscribed by the house including how to set their hands and ensuring that the players follow the rules set for players.

The casino has afforded me the opportunity to gamble in their game, which is controlled by a set of rules they create, none of which pertain to what I am allowed to say.

Additionally the player rules(unlike the dealer rules) do not include an obligation to see that the other side follows their rules.

This clearly allows leeway for the player to point out violations as they see fit and to say whatever they want(within the constraints of free speech laws and the casinos behavior guidelines) in the pursuit of enjoying their time at the gaming tables.

If the casino implemented a rule that banned discussion of the dealers hand(or how to set it) then I would agree with you.

Lastly, cheating is easy to determine and isn't subject to opinion: If an action violates the rules of the game, then it is cheating, otherwise it is not. The casino has broad leeway in creating their rules, it is no one's fault but their own if they chose not to cover a given situation.

The things you mention here are missing all of these... DECEPTION, MUNIPULATION, and INTENT! All of which the OP admits. Now you can try to justify it all you want its still one thing to me... Cheating!

I don't think you understand that "cheat" has a specific meaning in this context. To cheat in a game is to violate the rules of the game. Nothing discussed above does that, it may be unethical(personally i think if it is not cheating it's not unethical) but it is clearly not cheating.

I do believe that I've seen in a rules sheet (not sure where I've seen it, though - perhaps in a casino, perhaps from a casino's website somewhere) something along the lines of "Discussion of the actual cards contained in hands is expressly forbidden". Now, clearly, the intent of this rule is to prevent players at, say, a Let It Ride table from going, "Hey, I've got 3 kings here, don't expect to get a royal flush now!" (example purely fictional, and not likely applicable to the game of Let It Ride). But, in a much looser interpretation of the rule, one could argue that this rule has prevented the player from pointing out the dealer's mistakes. Or anyone's mistakes, for that matter.

Quote: bigtoad

I don't think you understand that "cheat" has a specific meaning in this context. To cheat in a game is to violate the rules of the game. Nothing discussed above does that, it may be unethical(personally i think if it is not cheating it's not unethical) but it is clearly not cheating.

Thank you. You have made my point... "To cheat is to violate the rules of the game." The House Way is the rules by which the dealer must set the hands. You, with the intent to change the outcome of the game in your favor, manipulate the dealer into setting the hands wrong thus violating the rules a.k.a. cheating. If you rolled a 10 in Monopoly to land on Go to Jail and then shouted out... "Oh Cool! Atlantic City!" and then asked another player across the board to move your token to that spot to fool the other players, it would be CHEATING. This is the same thing... "Oh cool! A7 with a pair!" Knowing there is a Flush with an AK in the hand set.

But keep justifying it.

I know you must.

All Cheaters do.

I Mean those evil money making Casinos deserve it! Oh wait, I already debunked that justification.

Can’t wait to hear your next one!

Someone hand this Poster a shovel let’s see how deep he can dig this whole LOL.

I previously stated that it's not cheating to mumble the wrong hand, in an attempt to influence the dealer into making a mistake.

I've been giving it a lot of thought, and have changed my mind.

Although the ruleset was written for regular poker, there is a rule which applies to this situation. It's called "Cards speak":

Quote: Robert's Rules of Poker

Cards speak (cards read for themselves).

The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared.

Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot.

What the poster is describing when trying to get the dealer to set the house hand incorrectly is unethical to me; sort of like letting a cashier give you change for a twenty when you know you gave them a five. The dealer or cashier could get fired. Perhaps "cheating" is not the right word, but it's close. Pulling a "Murphy" is cheating the cashier, and this strays into that territory.

Calling out the mis-set house hand *only* when it is in your favor, I'm OK with that especially if it involves a bit of study to make sure of the facts. But in any case, I don't see players obligated to double-check the house hand when the hand is a winner for player, suspicion aroused or not.

i wouldnt say anything if the dealer is setting hands wrong or point out the right way for her to set them either regardless of how it affected the results of my wager. i dont want to bring the dealer's attention to the mistakes she is making. if the suboptimal way she sets her hands causes you to lose a land, suck it up knowing she will make many more mistakes in your favor on future hands.

Here is the relevant section from the borgata(numbering is my own):

1. Any player’s hand that is set incorrectly (e.g. the two-card hand ranks higher than the five-card high hand, or player puts three cards in one hand and four cards in the other) is an automatic loser. Players are responsible for arranging their own hands and should do so with care.

2. Neither house bank nor the player/bank may set an automatic losing hand.The hand must be reset according to the House Way. The house dealer will explain the rankings and assist you in arranging your hands the House Way, but is not responsible for wins or losses.

3. The House Way is Borgata's set of rules determining how the dealer must set his/her hand or those of novice players asking for help.

First, you must have bombed the SAT because your analogies are atrocious. In monopoly the rules state that whatever you land on is what you land on, obviously moving your piece would mean you cheated. Now follow along step by step as we see that this is completly different.

Note that rule 3 explains that the dealer must set his hand using the house way. No where in the rules does it state what I may or may not say. If the dealer violates rule 3 then the dealer has clearly broken the rules and cheated because rule 3 pertains to how dealers must set their hands. Again it is clearly the dealer's responsibility to set their hand, there is no obligation for the player to correct them.

The complete rules for the Borg are on their site. If you can find a rule that says a player may not comment about the dealer's hand once it has been spread, then I'll change my tune.

Again I will concede that it might be unethical, but it is not "cheating". As a quick side I believe this discussion would be equivalent to a BJ dealer hitting at hard 17 and busting, I believe that the players have no obligation to correct the dealer(as players are not the procedural policing body in a casino) but may point it out to the floor if they so choose(like if the dealer pulled a 4). I think these are roughly equivalent, and think that ones views on the ethicality(?is that a word?) of one should be the same on the other, but clearly in neither case is the PLAYER violating any rules of the game.

In repsonse to DJ and the "cards speak" rule. First, Im not sure why an unofficial guide to the rules of a game that has basically nothing in common with PGP(other than the name and the arbitrary ranking system) would carry any weight. But even if it did, rule 1 pretty clearly shows that cards do not speak in this game. A player is allowed to set their hand any legal way they want, and if they are not banking they can even set it illegally and guarantee a loss. This shows that the "cards speak" rule carries no weight in PGP.

Quote: bigtoad

In repsonse to DJ and the "cards speak" rule...

The significant part of the rule was the part I highlighted.

Dj, note that it says it is unethical and MAY result in forfeiture of the pot. I used to play poker for a living in AC and Chicago, and have never seen a miscalled hand result in a lost pot, although twice I've seen a fight break out over it.

Anyway PGP is not poker in any sense of the game and RROP don't apply, hell RROP dont apply nearly anywhere except home games.

what you are doing is not considered cheating. whether you consider it ethical or unethical is up to you. i see nothing wrong with what you are doing but dont agree with your approach to it.

"You can shear a sheep many times but only skin it once."

if the dealer is making mistakes, dont make him or her aware of it.

Well, I must say that I do prefer the term "unethical" to "cheating" in these various circumstances. I'm not exactly sure what side of the fence I prefer to fall on yet, but I do find the conversation stimulating.

If it is unethical for a player to try to manipulate the dealer into mis-setting a hand, then I guess my only question is whether or not that unethicalness is balanced by the unethical behavior on the part of the casino. Namely, I'm talking about new players, and the lack of a mention regarding the 5% commission. In all the times that I've played PGP, I've noticed new players come in, but NEVER has a dealer or pit boss explained that a winning wager would result in a deduction of 5% for commission. This is never explained (by casino personnel) until after the player has won their first hand, at which point they received the reduced payout. When the new player asks about this, provided another player doesn't chime in first, then does the dealer explain that there is a 5% commission on winning hands. I'm not trying to disparage any particular casino, pit boss, or dealer, and if somebody knows of a place where they are upfront with the new player regarding the commission prior to the new player making any kind of bet, I think that's great. It's just that in my experience, I've never seen casino personnel tell a new player this. Sometimes, if a player has been watching the game for a while, and noticed it, they will ask someone, and then it is explained. But for those dealers that are encouraging new arrivals to sit and play, I have noticed that there is no explanation until either the player wins or they ask about it.

I understand that the full rules of the games are available and can be read by anybody. However, the casino personnel leave out this tidbit of information from any verbal explanation of the game. Further, I believe that the casino personnel know very well that the vast majority of players will not read an explanation of the game prior to just sitting and playing.

Thus, I feel that the lack of full disclosure regarding the 5% commission prior to the new player starting the game could be considered "unethical" on the part of the casino. Again, whether or not this karmicly balances out the player trying to encourage a dealer to mis-set a hand is an exercise left to the reader.

However, by similar argument, I could state that the casino not fully explaining the odds of receiving a bonus hand, in those PGP games that provide bonus bets, could also be considered "unethical". Casino personnel will gladly inform you that receiving one of these hands will result in a great payout. But never do they tell you the percentage chance of actually getting one of these hands.

In fact, any bet that doesn't give you a truly 50/50 chance of doubling your money, without any house edge, could be considered "unethical". If your friend bets you $10 that he can flip a coin and have it land heads, and it lands tails, and he pays you $9, explaining that the $1 was a house commission, you'd be angry and never make the bet again. (And if you would, we should get together because I have a game we can play.) We understand the simple concept that the casino needs to make money to keep its doors open, but nowhere does the casino let patrons know what the house edge is. I'd love to see a roulette table that advertises it's 5.25% house advantage to the players. The biggest culprit, I feel, is Casino War. People still seem to think there is a 50/50 chance at Casino War, because if their card is bigger than the dealer's card, they win. They don't even see that when they go to war, they are getting screwed. They are convinced they have a 50% chance to double their money.

I'm not saying that the casinos are unethical or are cheating. But it does seem evident that they are willing to manipulate whatever they can in order to provide themselves with a source of income. They have games with a built in house edge. They serve free alcohol, sometimes by women in skimpy outfits. They provide comps to soothe your losses and make you feel better. Maybe that doesn't make it right for a player to try their own manipulations so they can come out ahead, but, maybe that's the way players feel. Cheating: no. Manipulation: maybe.

Quote: clubflush

with the intent to change the outcome of the game in your favor

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I have a question. If you are playing 3-card poker, and the dealers flashes one of his cards, let's say an Ace, and you have been dealt King-high, you would know that you are going to lose. Despite what the strategies and the Wizard tells you, you know that staying on your King-high is a guaranteed loser, since the dealer's minimum of Ace-high will beat you. Thus, you would fold your hand. Thus, you've changed the outcome of the game in your favor. (Well, somewhat.) However, would you instead propose that since the dealer flashed his card, you should call a halt to the game, let the dealer know what happened, inform the pit boss, and either proclaim the hand a mis-deal? Or would you bet following basic strategy, knowing full well that you will lose, because that's the proper thing to do?

Further question: If the dealer consistently and repeatedly flashes his hole card, do you think the dealer should be replaced, removed from the game, sent home, etc, whatever? If you point out a mistake or problem (in your favor) to the management, and the mistake or problem (in your favor) continues, do you continually report the mistake or problem, or would you ever get to a point where you figure that you've given the casino enough opportunity and notice to correct the problem, and they haven't done so, so now it's ok to take advantage?

OK, Lets just let the law do the talking... and I dare the OP to do this with two gaming agents at the table. The law is very clear you cannot do this, its cheating but dont take my word for it... Here it is...



UNLAWFUL ACTS AND EQUIPMENT

NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts. It is unlawful for any person:

1. To alter or misrepresent the outcome of a game or other event on which wagers have been made after the outcome is made sure but before it is revealed to the players.

<<This is EXCATLY what the OP is doing! He is misrepresenting the outcome of the cards that have been place in the dealers postion but before the final outcome(dealers seting of the cards)is revealed. He is cheating>>

2. To place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome.

3. To claim, collect or take, or attempt to claim, collect or take, money or anything of value in or from a gambling game, with intent to defraud, without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect or take an amount greater than the amount won.

4. Knowingly to entice or induce another to go to any place where a gambling game is being conducted or operated in violation of the provisions of this chapter, with the intent that the other person play or participate in that gambling game.

5. To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.

6. To reduce the amount wagered or cancel the bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including pinching bets.

7. To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game.

<< This applys to table games as well. There are sereval convictions under this provision relating to table games.>>

8. To offer, promise or give anything of value to anyone for the purpose of influencing the outcome of a race, sporting event, contest or game upon which a wager may be made, or to place, increase or decrease a wager after acquiring knowledge, not available to the general public, that anyone has been offered, promised or given anything of value for the purpose of influencing the outcome of the race, sporting event, contest or game upon which the wager is placed, increased or decreased.

9. To change or alter the normal outcome of any game played on an interactive gaming system or a mobile gaming system or the way in which the outcome is reported to any participant in the game.

<< A Table Game is an interactive gaming System and The OP is Altering and changing the normal Outcome of a game. Hes Cheating!>>

[1911 C&P § 198; RL § 6463; NCL § 10146] + [1911 C&P § 199; RL § 6464; NCL § 10147]—(NRS A 1967, 587; 1977, 477; 1979, 1476; 1981, 1292; 1987, 414; 1989, 1112; 2001, 3095; 2005, 723)


Ok, so let the justifation begin again! He still wont stop, hes right and everyone else is wrong. Including the Nevada law stated here. He will read through it; parse it up to find a phrase or context that he thinks will make it ok to cheat this game.

The 3-Card situation is interesting. You're obviously not going to bet, and I don't think you should. However, should you inform the house that you saw the card? I say no. Fairness says that you're supposed to lose the hand, so just fold and take your loss.

If the dealer constantly flashes their hole card, then so be it. It's not your job to correct the dealer. Except if you're mis-paid. Once again, this is totally different then lying to the dealer, which I do not condone.

People disagree with me on this, and I totally understand. But if the dealer pushes me when I'm supposed to lose, I don't say anything about it, because that's not my job.

Quote: clubflush

NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts. It is unlawful for any person:

1. To alter or misrepresent the outcome of a game or other event on which wagers have been made after the outcome is made sure but before it is revealed to the players.

It says "any person". Does that include the casino and/or dealer?

I notice that there is no provision about "altering" the outcome of a game AFTER the reveal to players. In other words, if a dealer, through no interaction of the other players whatsoever, sets his hand wrong, then if that situation is caught by the casino, security, pit boss, whatever, the dealer is allowed to change the hand. Because this is happening AFTER the cards have been revealed to the player?

Maybe it should be that the dealer has to set the hand, and make some indication that this is the hand that is set, and THEN reveal the cards to the players. However, at the same time, once the dealer's hand has been set, it should be required to stay in that formation, regardless of a mis-set on the part of the dealer.

Quote: konceptum

It says "any person". Does that include the casino and/or dealer?

I notice that there is no provision about "altering" the outcome of a game AFTER the reveal to players. In other words, if a dealer, through no interaction of the other players whatsoever, sets his hand wrong, then if that situation is caught by the casino, security, pit boss, whatever, the dealer is allowed to change the hand. Because this is happening AFTER the cards have been revealed to the player?

Maybe it should be that the dealer has to set the hand, and make some indication that this is the hand that is set, and THEN reveal the cards to the players. However, at the same time, once the dealer's hand has been set, it should be required to stay in that formation, regardless of a mis-set on the part of the dealer.

Read the intent provision of the law. If there is no intent there is no crime. A dealer's real mistake is just that and the hand should be set to the fair and true outcome that should have been set following the house way. Now thats not to say a dealer could not be doing this with intent. Remember of all gaming fraud in Nevada, 67% of it is done by Casino personal LOL. But like any crime the Perp has to have intent or there is no crime. Also, I wanted noted that if a player at our house sets his hand wrong by mistake, Exp... puts the KQ up with a pair of 2s down but had an Ace in his hand and could have played AK with 2's down. We will allow that player to set it house way. As long as there was no advatage to the player to set it that way. Which in this example there was not. Or if they completely fowl their hand, set a pair of 2s up and a AK down, we will let them reset the hand house way. Most casinos will do this one or two times for a player in a session. If your playing at a casino that does not do this... Find a different place to play!

Quote: clubflush

Read the intent provision of the law. If there is no intent there is no crime.

Good point. But what if there is no intent? Whenever I play PGP, I sometimes go into a chant where as the dealer flips over their card, I yell out "Pai Gow". I have no intent for the dealer to mis-set their hand. Now, I understand your point is that if I then knowingly see the dealer mis-set the hand, then I should point it out. But what if I don't notice the mis-set hand?

Quote: clubflush

Most casinos will do this one or two times for a player in a session. If your playing at a casino that does not do this... Find a different place to play!

Agreed, to a certain point. Somebody who repeatedly sets their hand wrong should be the one asked to find a different place to play. I sometimes see players get frustrated with such a person and continue telling them they are setting the hand wrong, but I think you get to a certain point where you should just give up and let them learn the hard way.

Quote: konceptum

Good point. But what if there is no intent? Whenever I play PGP, I sometimes go into a chant where as the dealer flips over their card, I yell out "Pai Gow". I have no intent for the dealer to mis-set their hand.

If it continues after a warning to cease and desist it IS intent. Most PG dealer's ignore what the player believes the hand is, but for break-ins it can be a distraction. What's done in the pit by the dealer or floorman is a request that "the announced play-by-play Routine" cease and desist if believed to be "shot-taking" or is a distraction to the game - intentional OR not.

If the dealer claims that the player doing it to take shots, the player is warned to stop it ASAP. If he continues, then out he goes...

What I am getting here, at least a little bit, is a sense of "How can I get away with taking shots at the dealer," or "HOW can I take shots at the dealer."

By the way, after the dealer sets his hand, if it is spotted to be wrong, the he may re-set it ANYTIME before he does his first take-and-pay. If he spots it AFTER a take-and-pay action, he calls the floor - to reset the hand and to adjust the take or pay action.

Interesting. I've never had anybody ask me to stop saying "Pai Gow" as the dealer flips over their cards. In fact, I usually am able to get the whole table into it, and sometimes even the dealer. But it does make sense that if asked to stop, one should stop.

Konceptum -

Let's be clear:

If you're saying it in the sense of "please let it BE a pai gow" - just hoping for your own win, and the dealer is not bothered by it...then it's all FINE.

If you're yelling "Pai gow!! You must Set it as a Pai Gow" - trying to badger the dealer to mess up his hand, that's very different.


We cannot display all the various tones and intents with print words in a Forum post. So what decides it is behavior and intent:

1. If the player's behavior is badgering the dealer to force a dealer's misplay - then that's a problem, even criminal.

2. If the player's expression is just a hope for the player to win, then that is innocuous.

People - can we make this distinction? These things are clear in the environment in which they happend, and are determined in the environment where it happens.