Overpaid at a table
Thanks for any info.
KWW
I've been overpaid various amounts over the years: was given a green instead of a red because of a careless dealer or a dirty stack, can't say the reason. I've been given a black instead of a green and the dealer said it was a dirty stack. I've been given three reds instead of two reds because the dealer made a mistake. But in ALL cases either another dealer caught it or I returned the error.
Getting back to your question: I doubt an accidental overpayment could ever be made for a large amount because in the case of large amounts the dealer must verify with a floorperson. If there were an overpayment for a large amount that wasn't detected it could be considered a criminal act.
In the case of a small overpayment, perhaps $25 or less, I don't think anyone is going to care.
Casinos are very careful about watching their stacks of $100 chips and up. I doubt an "error" would ever leave the table.
In the case of an error of $25 or less, I doubt anyone would notice or care. Heck, I've seen dealers pay a player for a "regularly made bet" that the player forgot to make. For example, a player always has $5 on the horn, and then forgets to make it because of a distraction -- the horn hits and the player is paid. Or a player was distracted when a new point is established and doesn't get his odds on the table, and on the next throw the point is hit. I've seen dealers pay as if the odds were there.
Quote: IbeatyouracesKeep it until asked for back. If you prefer to be "ethical" about it, point out the error immediately and pay it back.
I do this. If I didn't legitimately win it, it isn't mine, so why not be honest about it? For that matter, I sometimes get change for a $20 when paying with a $10 bill; I point it out, give it back, and don't give it a second thought. Different people have different values on this; one can think that "their mistake makes it mine." I disagree with that. If I demand payment when underpaid, I also give it back if overpaid.
You were playing with TWO strikes against you. Ignorance and alcohol. If you are that drunk that you don't get the message, its your fault.Quote: KWWI was new to the game and admittedly a bit tipsy so I didn't realize the error but the guy next to me did, and was trying to tell me to leave the table so they would not make me repay.
Surveillance probably caught it and they would have got it back eventually anyway.
They will NOT show the film to a player and you make a stink and be a mean sport about it, but the best thing to do is pay up when asked to. They have already made the decision to interrupt the game. Often a craps cheat is tolerated a few times just to keep the game going. Its best to play like a gentleman or at least like a somewhat tipsy gentleman.
Quote: IbeatyouracesKeep it until asked for back. If you prefer to be "ethical" about it, point out the error immediately and pay it back.
This is how I act as well. At a casino, especially if you've been drinking, you have so much plausible deniability that nobody should ever get mad at you for taking an overpayment. I also tend to tip them some of it back... but it's definitely best to wait a few rounds before doing so. If you tip immediately after an overpayment, it just make it look worse than it actually was. That last bit might just be my personal flavor though.
I once got paid 50-1 instead of 25-1 and the dealer and I realized it at the same time about an hour later when he was paying off someone else for the same hit. We just looked at each other and I tipped $5 for a few rounds in a row. I'm afraid he thinks it was on purpose (I shouted out the payout and he trusted me), but it was a complete and utter accident.
I have pointed out errors in my favor before, but not every time. When I don't it's because I wonder how many times I have been underpaid and didn't notice. I only play a couple of times a year and usually indulge a little.Quote: PaigowdanI do this. If I didn't legitimately win it, it isn't mine, so why not be honest about it? For that matter, I sometimes get change for a $20 when paying with a $10 bill; I point it out, give it back, and don't give it a second thought. Different people have different values on this; one can think that "their mistake makes it mine." I disagree with that. If I demand payment when underpaid, I also give it back if overpaid.
My parents, my younger sister and I were in Vegas celebrating her 21st and we were all at Binions playing around. My dad hit a $2,500 jackpot on a Triple Diamond five dollar slot and it being the late 90's, Binions still had coins. The machine had enough coins to payout the majority of the jackpot, which he quickly racked up. It took them a goodly while to come around and do the tax stuff and all, and when they came back to pay him, they paid him the whole $2,500. He told my sister to take the racks, cash them out and get out of dodge, and he bee-lined it for the exit with the $2,000 they had just hand-payed him (he tipped the slot attendant $300 and the cocktail waitress $200). We still laugh about heisting Binions back in the day...
A similar question was asked and answered in the thread "I Spy With My Mechanical Eye"
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/22375-i-spy-with-my-mechanical-eye/6/#post467268
It paid out the coins and locked up? Usually once you hit a taxable it locks up and no coins come out.Quote: AJS909Related story from about 15 years ago (so hopefully the statute of limitations has expired...) and an obvious example why my family isn't as morally upright as y'all...
My parents, my younger sister and I were in Vegas celebrating her 21st and we were all at Binions playing around. My dad hit a $2,500 jackpot on a Triple Diamond five dollar slot and it being the late 90's, Binions still had coins. The machine had enough coins to payout the majority of the jackpot, which he quickly racked up. It took them a goodly while to come around and do the tax stuff and all, and when they came back to pay him, they paid him the whole $2,500. He told my sister to take the racks, cash them out and get out of dodge, and he bee-lined it for the exit with the $2,000 they had just hand-payed him (he tipped the slot attendant $300 and the cocktail waitress $200). We still laugh about heisting Binions back in the day...
So it had to have been malfunctioning. I haven't heard of such a thing. I have heard of the opposite IE hand pay but credits remain and player cashes out.
Cashing in the coins wasn't necessary(Its normal for someone to have lots of coins). You may have gotten away with $2500, but it was probably worth 10's of thousands.
You were basically getting double hand-pay jackpots on a $5 denomination. Someone would need to know what % the hand-pays contributed. And at some point you would have a hopper fill and a hand-pay simultaneously.
If you honestly didn't realize it, suppose you didn't remember when it occurred? You should just assume the casino is being legit?
I'm sure they wouldn't share the video with me - but I wonder what they could really do once the next hand has begun. Or, if you walked away and lost the money in a slot or vp machine.
What could they do? Throw you out for their error? Doubtful. They would likely absorb the loss.
But - ultimately, there are folks on these forums that gamble a whole lot more than me and may have seen a similar situation play out.
Quote: KWWIf you are playing a table game and using your player card at a casino you are staying at and are overpaid without you or the dealer realizing it at the time, then leave the table and cash out. Can the casino contact you later, say by leaving a message on your phone in your room and request that you repay the overpayment? If you were using your player card and staying at the hotel I would think it would be easy to find you, but is there a rule that once you leave the table the casino can no longer demand repayment? Don't get me wrong I would gladly pay back any overpayment as I don't want the casino cheating me anymore than I would want to cheat the casino, but just wondering if there are limits to when the casino can contact you and ask for the overpayment to be repaid? I could see this being an issue if you left the table and lost the money at a different game how could they still demand repayment? You may no longer have the funds to pay back what was originally overpaid in the first place.
Thanks for any info.
KWW
This is no different than a bank mistakenly deposit extra money to your account. So legally you have to return the overpayment. If the amount is small and the casino found out about it later, I dont think it is worth the effort (consider the casino labor cost and the hassle of having to show proof such as surveillance video, adverse customer relation ) for the casino to track you down to demand the repayment. Now, if the amount is large, for example $5,000, Im very confident the casino will demand the repayment and may even initiate a law suit if necessary.
Quote: JimRockfordI have pointed out errors in my favor before, but not every time. When I don't it's because I wonder how many times I have been underpaid and didn't notice. I only play a couple of times a year and usually indulge a little.
Imo, overpayment AND underpayment mistakes happened more often than you would think, and I always wonder if the casino make best effort to track their customers down in the underpayment situations.
Quote: RSIn Nevada, once you're paid, it's yours. If they want it back they can ask. If you decline, they can trespass you. But can't file a law suit against you.
I doubt what you state is true (al least from my common sense perspective).
Quote: 777I doubt what you state is true (al least from my common sense perspective).
Did a little Google search and found this:
NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts
3. To claim, collect or take, or attempt to claim, collect or take, money or anything of value in or from a gambling game, with intent to defraud, without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect or take an amount greater than the amount won.
And here is the link:
https://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-465.html
Other states may have similar language but in most cases there would be no criminal charges pressed and what would happen would be as RS stated. Well at least that is how we handle it where I work.
Quote: waasnodayDid a little Google search and found this:
NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts
3. To claim, collect or take, or attempt to claim, collect or take, money or anything of value in or from a gambling game, with intent to defraud, without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect or take an amount greater than the amount won.
And here is the link:
https://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-465.html
Other states may have similar language but in most cases there would be no criminal charges pressed and what would happen would be as RS stated. Well at least that is how we handle it where I work.
According to the status, it is It is unlawful for any person: to claim, collect or take an amount greater than the amount won. In a lawsuit situation, it is very difficult for the casino to prove of its customer criminal intent, but it can very easily prove of the overpayment via video surveillance; and therefore entitle for the repayment of the overpaid amount.
My guess is the reason your casino does not want to elevate the issue through legal channel is due to the economic reason. Is it worth to collect $10, $50, $100 when lawyer fee, employee time and other overhead cost are taken into consideration? Furthermore, there could be a public relation problem, and the casino could lose this customer for life over a small amount of dispute.
Quote: 777According to the status, it is It is unlawful for any person: to claim, collect or take an amount greater than the amount won. In a lawsuit situation, it is very difficult for the casino to prove of its customer criminal intent, but it can very easily prove of the overpayment via video surveillance; and therefore entitle for the repayment of the overpaid amount.
My guess is the reason your casino does not want to elevate the issue through legal channel is due to the economic reason. Is it worth to collect $10, $50, $100 when lawyer fee, employee time and other overhead cost are taken into consideration? Furthermore, there could be a public relation problem, and the casino could lose this customer for life over a small amount of dispute.
You pretty much nailed it. We have never had (that we know of) an overpayment in the amount that outweighs the legal costs and PR hit. We do 86 if not paid and let it go at that. For the most part we do not have many over or under payments. Fairly decent cash control in place.
Quote: waasnodayYou pretty much nailed it. We have never had (that we know of) an overpayment in the amount that outweighs the legal costs and PR hit. We do 86 if not paid and let it go at that. For the most part we do not have many over or under payments. Fairly decent cash control in place.
I'm here to learn. You said "We do 86..." What is 86?
The largest underpayment I have investigated personally was for $1000. The jackpot won was for 5k but only 4k was disbursed. The cashier's drawer was over and they called in Regulatory. I watched the tape and was amazed to see that payout pass through 5 different hands (including the patron's) and no one caught the mistake. Operations was notified of the investigation results and the patron was made whole.
Quote: waasnodayWhere I work we do try to locate the owner when an underpayment is made. It is very easy if the player card is in play and also very easy to track down the person if tax papers were filed. If neither a player's card nor tax papers are created then we do have to rely on a picture of the person and hope they return. If the person can not be identified then the funds are placed in the found money account which is turned over to the state on I believe a yearly basis (maybe quarterly?).
The largest underpayment I have investigated personally was for $1000. The jackpot won was for 5k but only 4k was disbursed. The cashier's drawer was over and they called in Regulatory. I watched the tape and was amazed to see that payout pass through 5 different hands (including the patron's) and no one caught the mistake. Operations was notified of the investigation results and the patron was made whole.
Sort of proves that more eyes are not always better if everyone assumes that either the first person never makes mistakes or that the other person will catch their mistake.
Quote: zoobrewSort of proves that more eyes are not always better if everyone assumes that either the first person never makes mistakes or that the other person will catch their mistake.
Too true. At least this did serve to wake some people up. All received a write-up and what I have seen since this is much more ownership by all parties involved during a payment. Security has really stepped up to the plate and changed their attitude about payments. In the past Security would generally just watch and not truly count. Now they not only observe but also count themselves. Not sure if the Slot Attendant is happy counting the pay out several times in front of the officer if needed, but it is what should have been happening all along.
Quote: waasnodayYou pretty much nailed it. We have never had (that we know of) an overpayment in the amount that outweighs the legal costs and PR hit. We do 86 if not paid and let it go at that. For the most part we do not have many over or under payments. Fairly decent cash control in place.
Knowing the meaning of 86 now I can reply to your post. Each situation is unique; however, let me speak in a general term. I noticed so many empty tables at all the casinos that I visited recently, and my thinking is the casinos need the customers more than the customers need the casinos, call it the player/customer market if you will. With this being said, IMO, it may not be wise to do 86 over a dispute of a small amount of money.
Sure there are times that the casino must stand up to its principle and has to act very aggressively. However, IMO, it may not be wise to be such aggressive in many instances, and the casino should think twice before doing 86 because the cost of bringing in new customers or keeping existing customers can be much higher than the disputed amount of $5, $10, $100 or more.
Quote: 777Knowing the meaning of 86 now I can reply to your post. Each situation is unique; however, let me speak in a general term. I noticed so many empty tables at all the casinos that I visited recently, and my thinking is the casinos need the customers more than the customers need the casinos, call it the player/customer market if you will. With this being said, IMO, it may not be wise to do 86 over a dispute of a small amount of money.
Sure there are times that the casino must stand up to its principle and has to act very aggressively. However, IMO, it may not be wise to be such aggressive in many instances, and the casino should think twice before doing 86 because the cost of bringing in new customers or keeping existing customers can be much higher than the disputed amount of $5, $10, $100 or more.
If we were talking about a huge quantity of miss pays then I may have to agree but this issue is very small and one (maybe two people) over my five years here have ever escalated this to a level where they were 86ed. I will also say this, in the one case I am sure of, the individual knew he was overpaid and basically thumbed his nose at us. Not really someone we want coming in our door anyway. It is kind of like having to listen to the various racial slurs heard on the floor. Do we loose money when we kick someone like that out, of course, but are they someone we want on the floor anyway? Sometimes the character of the customer must take precedent over the wealth of the customer.
As far as 86s go the vast majority are due to Tito theft with next most frequent usually associated with some sort of drunken revelry.
Edited to add this:
We do not worry about the small stuff. As long as the miss pay is under $100, we usually would not even worry about it. Now in regards to Tito theft, pretty much any amount will get you ousted, well at least until you make restitution. In the case of Tito theft they are stealing from another customer and we will not be lenient about that in any sense of the word.
Quote: AlanMendelson
In the case of an error of $25 or less, I doubt anyone would notice or care. Heck, I've seen dealers pay a player for a "regularly made bet" that the player forgot to make. For example, a player always has $5 on the horn, and then forgets to make it because of a distraction -- the horn hits and the player is paid. Or a player was distracted when a new point is established and doesn't get his odds on the table, and on the next throw the point is hit. I've seen dealers pay as if the odds were there.
Alan, you see some amazing things. You never cease to entertain some of us. Others are taking you seriously. I feel very sorry for them. Have a nice day.
I've seen the exact same type of stuff that Alan is talking about. Although it usually requires getting the floor person's approval, paying a 'forgotten' bet happens all the time. Craps is too hectic and fast paced to never allow such a thing.Quote: NokTangAlan, you see some amazing things. You never cease to entertain some of us. Others are taking you seriously. I feel very sorry for them. Have a nice day.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI've seen the exact same type of stuff that Alan is talking about. Although it usually requires getting the floor person's approval, paying a 'forgotten' bet happens all the time. Craps is too hectic and fast paced to never allow such a thing.
Have you also seen eighteen yo's(that's a 6 on one die, a five on the other) thrown in a row, at Caesars Palace, in Las Vegas Nevada at an active table?(not a trick performance etc.)
Quote: DJTeddyBearI've seen the exact same type of stuff that Alan is talking about. Although it usually requires getting the floor person's approval, paying a 'forgotten' bet happens all the time. Craps is too hectic and fast paced to never allow such a thing.
I have been the recipient of that type of grace a couple of times. I'm a big tipper on craps, trading that for assistance from the dealers in keeping me active and prompted. I tell them at the beginning to keep us both in, and twice it was moving too fast for me to get my bets re-set, and they've honored the request as a call bet and paid it. To both our benefits, of course, but they have done it without any issue.
I have also gotten that grace on re-setting sidebets and such many times at a table, usually when I've had money up for change in order to make the bet (that I'd consistently been making), and the dealer ignored the chip up top and started the hand without making the change. On a few occasions, they had to simply apologize and deal it without my bet in place (quoting house rules), which so far has not resulted in a big miss, thank goodness, but is irritating to me. I prefer the dealers who are good enough at their jobs that they scan all positions before starting the hand and notice if someone hasn't placed a bet that they've been regularly making, or look for large chips out of place on the layout.
I also think it's a design flaw, if a bet on any table, craps or otherwise, has a red background for a bet that's normally made with a red chip, or green if it's a table minimum green bet. One example of this is some PGP felts have the Fortune bonus circle in solid red, when a $5 bet is far and away the most common bet there (Envy minimum). I haven't seen a lot of this type error on craps layouts, but I haven't played craps in that many casinos (yet).
Craps tables are worst for underpays - often underpaid $100 on color up.
And every time, boxman shoots me the missing $100 without recounting (like a "slowpay" in 3rd world countries...they give you change and pause... if you leave, they don't finish paying you).
...not all craps bowmen are crooked. I tried to leave a table without by $500-600 on color up, and the bowman reminded me that I was forgetting my money.
Blackjack tables are best for overpays...since I tip generously.
Dealers often make mistakes in my favor on complicated bets, or any situation with plausible deniability.
e.g. double paying or extra chips on an insurance bet or blackjack, paying 3:2 instead of 6:5 (yes, I sometimes play 6:5 BJ), double paying if table action is interrupted by pit boss coming over, paying 3:2 or 6:5 on a match bet (rather than even), allowing a double on match bet coupon (if norm is only doubling the cash)
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Mispays at cashiers. Once overpaid $100.
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Two mispays on slot jackpots.
One of my friends was underpaid $1,000 on a handpay, and it took forever to get the extra money (surveillance, etc...)
So... I always double-checked my hand pays with no issues for 6 years, then two errors at different casinos in the same month (both in my favor $300 & $700).
Mitchell
Quote: mamatI've had hundreds of misplays on tables.
Craps tables are worst for underpays - often underpaid $100 on color up.
And every time, boxman shoots me the missing $100 without recounting (like a "slowpay" in 3rd world countries...they give you change and pause... if you leave, they don't finish paying you).
...not all craps bowmen are crooked. I tried to leave a table without by $500-600 on color up, and the bowman reminded me that I was forgetting my money.
Blackjack tables are best for overpays...since I tip generously.
Dealers often make mistakes in my favor on complicated bets, or any situation with plausible deniability.
e.g. double paying or extra chips on an insurance bet or blackjack, paying 3:2 instead of 6:5 (yes, I sometimes play 6:5 BJ), double paying if table action is interrupted by pit boss coming over, paying 3:2 or 6:5 on a match bet (rather than even), allowing a double on match bet coupon (if norm is only doubling the cash)
----
Mispays at cashiers. Once overpaid $100.
----
Two mispays on slot jackpots.
One of my friends was underpaid $1,000 on a handpay, and it took forever to get the extra money (surveillance, etc...)
So... I always double-checked my hand pays with no issues for 6 years, then two errors at different casinos in the same month (both in my favor $300 & $700).
Mitchell
Mitchell, are you saying that blackjack dealers cheat in your favor because you tip generously? No judgement here, I just want to clarify.
