Calculating Comps

I understand that the formula that casinos use to calculate the amount of comps they will offer a player is the following:

Average bet * #of events per hour * hours played * houses % advantage * 20-30% = comp

What I am trying to find out is what are
1) the # of events per hour and
2) houses % advantage

While each casino might use differing amounts for each game I would think that they should all be within a reasonable amount.

The games I am interested in are:

1 - Craps
2 - Black Jack
3 - Pai Gow Poker

This is from the RIVERS casino in Pittsburgh. These are all average bet and approximate per hour comp. points
Blackjack $100=750; $25=200; $15=110
Roulette $25=500; $15=200
3 card poker $30=500; $15=250
Craps $30=200
Mini Baccarat $100=500; $20=150

I think it takes 1,000 comp. points to earn $1 in comps


http://www.riverscasino.com/pittsburgh/casino/table-games

In blackjack, the number of events per hour is the number of dealer hands per hour.

The house advantage depends on the table rules, but it's typically going to be in the .2%-2% range. For common rules, it should be around .6%.

Each house has its own standards for dealer speed, but I would expect 110 events per hour heads up, 80 events per hour with 2 players at the table, and around 60 events per hour with more than 2 players at the table. I would not expect them to rate you higher with fewer players at the table (even though they should); I expect they'll have an average number that they use all the time (somewhere in the 60-80 range).

At least out here in the hinterlands, pit crew that have some discretion seem to be far more generous with their ratings if you're tipping.


This may be interesting.

Per this thread you are underestimating the number of hands dealt per hour.

Great question, Riva! Hands per hour can be dealer dependent as some are faster and more dexterous than others. Other factors are number of players at the table, side bets, players' decision times etc. I regularly play over 200 hands per hour one on one.

Wong did some studies on this subject using Atlantic City six deck games. Here's what is in Professional Blackjack:

1 player: 248 hands per hour

2 players: 158

3 players: 116

4 players: 91

5 players: 76

6 players: 64

7 players: 56

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/16753-hands-per-hour-and-house-edge/

Quote: zoobrew

Per this thread you are underestimating the number of hands dealt per hour.

I am absolutely underestimating the number of hands per hour, just like the casino will when calculating comps.

To get things playing fast, you need a fast dealer and a fast player. If the dealer decides to get chatty, or stretch because her back is aching, or admire the scenery in skimpy dresses, or ask the floor questions, that slows the game. If the player is getting chatty, ordering beverages, stretching, admiring the scenery, having to pause to loan money to someone who is playing slots... that slows the game. If there is more than one player, that slows the game (even if they're both lightning fast pro players).

The casino wants to calculate comps based on a low number of hands per hour. They'd actually like you to play much faster than that, so they're making more money and under-comping you.

If you want to max your comps vs action, play slow.

Nice to know to a certain point. However, never ever play for comps. You will never exactly know how each property does it and each property might be subject to variance depending on how much leeway their pit bosses/floor people wield, etc. You might play a certain amount for a certain number of hours and a floor person gives you a $75 comp for food and another floor person on the next shift will give you only $35.00 for the same exact play, etc.

But it is always speed (low-med-fast) or # of hands/type of game (HA) and Average Wager, but like said before, all properties use different formulas and then there is also discretion and variances of the different floor people issuing comps.

Lots of time it is perception and the experience of the floor person/pit boss, etc., that will ultimately determine what you get or don't get.

Quote: Dieter

I would not expect them to rate you higher with fewer players at the table (even though they should); I expect they'll have an average number that they use all the time (somewhere in the 60-80 range).

The system i worked on had three settings for speed at blackjack that were factored into the rating. The pit person would enter the rating by choosing a game, entering an average bet, and entering the speed (slow, normal, fast), enter start and end time.

Quote: markfich

I understand that the formula that casinos use to calculate the amount of comps they will offer a player is the following:

Average bet * #of events per hour * hours played * houses % advantage * 20-30% = comp

What I am trying to find out is what are
1) the # of events per hour and
2) houses % advantage

While each casino might use differing amounts for each game I would think that they should all be within a reasonable amount.

The games I am interested in are:

1 - Craps
2 - Black Jack
3 - Pai Gow Poker

1 - Craps - # of events per hour = rolls. Advantage depends on your bets. If you're strictly a pass/don't pass + come/don't come player then you're looking at about 1.5%. If you play a lot of center action they might bump you to 2%+.
2 - Blackjack - # of events per hour = number of hands played per hour. Generally 60-80 is a good starting point at fuller tables. Also, for your comp calculations you can more than likely use a 2% house edge. Most casinos correctly assume that most players don't even play basic strategy. Now if you player higher limits you might have had a skills check and they might see you're a basic strategy player, thus you might actually get rated with a house edge of ~.5%-1%.
3 - Pai Gow Poker - # of events per hour = number of hands dealt. For the house edge, just visit the Wizards Pai Gow Poker page and he shows it (again probably rounding up to the nearest whole percent, as most players don't play perfect "basic strategy."

What about casinos that rate just based on buy-ins, and not average bet?

Quote: Deucekies

What about casinos that rate just based on buy-ins, and not average bet?

No such thing. There is the 'quick loss' rebate/comp available when a player buys in and losses larger amounts very quickly which is normally 5 to 15% depending on the casino property if you are not a known player or have a history there. But we are talking amount generally over $10k.

Quote: Deucekies

What about casinos that rate just based on buy-ins, and not average bet?

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

No such thing. There is the 'quick loss' rebate/comp available when a player buys in and losses larger amounts very quickly which is normally 5 to 15% depending on the casino property if you are not a known player or have a history there. But we are talking amount generally over $10k.

Sorry to inform you Bacc, but some casinos are indeed ass backwards and stupid. One example of a casino that uses this "comp" system is Rivers, in PA. When I was still in that area I went there a few times. I played for 4-5 hours, so I asked if I 'could' get anything. They informed me that it didn't matter that I'd been playing for 4-5 hours, or that my average bet was probably about $30-$40. I thought the one pit boss was lying to me, so I inquired from another and got the same story. They go off how much you buy in for, and what you leave the table with. I could go on for hours about how stupid this is... You don't know how much is in my pocket. How many times have you seen someone buy in for $100, then rebuy $100, then rebuy $100, etc, etc. Doing this they also have zero clue what your theoretical loss is (i.e. using the math of the game to see how much money they can expect from you should you ever return... or do they not care if you return?). The list goes on and on...

Thus, at these casino's, since they want to be stupid... Buy in for $10k... play for a couple hours MIN betting with basic strategy (unless you're counting), ratholing chips here and there. Cash out for $7k, and demand high end comps for losing $3k.

Under normal Theoretical Loss calculations, your comp for 5 hours play would be: (avgBet * handsPlayed * houseEdge * 20% comp) = (100*400*.02*.2) = $160
Under their retarded scheme... um, you bought in for $10k... so um, that's a lot, right? You lost $3k... so let's pretend to give you 20% of that? ...so = $600?

I actually have no idea if they give 20% of what you physically lose or not. I also don't understand this because this model would seem to support the fact that they never comp winning players? Or do they just comp people whom buy in for X or more no matter what? ...do you see the ambiguity and retardedness of doing this? If you couldn't tell it frustrates me that a casino wouldn't use math for comps lol. Even so, ABUSE the system they set up by buying in for a lot and ratholing. According to this I should buy in for $5k on a $10 table, play the min $10 for an hour (TL = $3.20), then demand comps worth hundreds of dollars since hey, I bought in for $5k.

Of course, but there is no rating system that I know that will rate only off your buy-in and the amount walked with. They do factor the rest in. Otherwise players could buy in for say $2,000.00 hide half when no one is looking and a quick glance would have the player at a loss for $1,000.00. A great floor person knows these tricks and at times they will tally up the remaining chips in a rack at the high limit if they didn't have a good fix on what a player was doing to account for a loss that might not have been, etc. I give you that, they might comp or rate off the buy in and the walk away amount with, but they also have to have the averages and other data to support it.

As far as my comment about 'percentage -instant comp' for larger players. If you are a new player, non-rated, in a H.L. room and say you buy in for $20k. You are wagering $2k to $5k a hand. Play maybe 10 hands at best and lose it all. They will give you at least $1k if not $2k or slightly more in comp, all ratings systems would have you at almost nothing for that loss, you would have only a few min.'s in and automatically wouldn't even register. There is a huge difference in a H.L. room where the floor personnel is really watching 1 or 2 tables versus the main floor where it could be min's before the floor even observes a single play on a table, etc. There is a huge difference in 'quick loss' comps when they see and know you lost the money versus sitting at a main floor table with maybe ratholing 25 to 60% of your larger buy in especially when it is so easy to see the chips are not back in the dealers rack.

Quote: Romes

I also don't understand this because this model would seem to support the fact that they never comp winning players? .

Rating systems reward the same to loss or wins from players, it is time based, etc., everything else is variables affecting what volume will be rewarded to the player for how much time.

Quick loss comp is just that, it is for quick loss, not wins. It is a manuel override so to say.

Deleted. Romes beat me to it.

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

Rating systems reward the same to loss or wins from players, it is time based, etc., everything else is variables affecting what volume will be rewarded to the player for how much time.

Quick loss comp is just that, it is for quick loss, not wins. It is a manuel override so to say.

Actually on the main floor they would be less likely to notice so long as you didn't get black/purple chips (or rathole those at least). You could buy in for 2k, and get 1k in green (ratholing most of those away over an hour or so). Other players come and go. This is MUCH different than the high limit rooms you're used to where the PB's know the racks a lot better. I know for a fact that you can EASILY rathole $500 in greens over a couple hours and they'd never even have a clue. For AP's, this is just amplified if they have a swing of poor variance and are actually losing as well (color in those blacks for more greens to rathole). Thus, the PB see's the blacks in the tray (the threshold for the color he cares about) and assumes you lost the rest if you cash in with less.

Do trust that I'm well aware of comp systems =)... and they're actually event based, not time based. I.E. If you're playing Baccarat, they don't keep track of how 'long' you've been playing, they keep track of the number of hands you've been playing. They use time to estimate hands so they don't have to have a clicker or something to get the number of hands played in the past hour.

Most places use the Theoretical Loss model I showed above... TL = (AvgBet*NumHands*HouseEdge)... Then, most places (that I've observed) will comp you 15-30% of your Theoretical Loss. So say they comp 20% of your TL... Then the formula is Comp = (AvgBet*NumHands*HouseEdge)*.2

I was more pointing out that Rivers, for example... Didn't use this "buy in / cash out" system as a "quick loss comp" or a "manual override." This is how they regularly track comps for all of their players, all of the time... and it's my personal belief that they're shorting both themselves, and the players (which makes their system moronic).

I play at casino A for 5 hours, they give me food.

I play at Rivers for 5 hours, and they say "you only bought in for $200"... even if I'm up $2k and betting $50/hand. This closely resembles one of my experiences with them.

Quote: Romes

I play at Rivers for 5 hours, and they say "you only bought in for $200"... even if I'm up $2k and betting $50/hand. This closely resembles one of my experiences with them.

The Rivers "now" disagrees with you as their website says they use avg. bet and time played to determine comps. See the 2nd post of this thread. What they did in the past or are currently "really" doing, I don't know.

My general take away on reading the different threads on table comps, is that you are usually making another gamble with unknown/variable odds & results.

Romes, thanks for the info.

Quote: markfich

Romes, thanks for the info.

Glad you found it helpful. Welcome to the forums!