BioProf
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August 7th, 2014 at 3:43:47 PM permalink
And article in vox.com today (www.vox.com/2014/8/7/5976927/slot-machines-casinos-addiction-by-design) seems to be a re-hash of Natasha Dow Schull's 2012 book.

The article states:
"...some video (slot) machines actually make internal adjustments if they notice that a player is on a losing streak and is reaching their 'pain point'. This has to be done carefully it's illegal for casinos to change the odds in a game once a player has started playing. But, [Shull] says, casinos can reduce the volatility of a game in a way that still preserves the overall payback percentage. That's technically still legal."

This leaves me with a few questions for The Wiz or for anyone else who is knowledgeable.

1) Does anyone have real facts that such alteration of volatility actually occurs? If so, which casino corporations practice it?

2) Is alteration of volatility illegal in any state or province?

3) Would it be possible to change the volatility of video poker considering a) fixed pay tables and b) the supposedly honest deal from a 52 card deck each hand? I can't imagine how it could occur, but I'm not spending a lot of brain time on it.

Thanks to all.
FleaStiff
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August 7th, 2014 at 3:51:55 PM permalink
Off hand I'd not be too inclined to invest a great deal of brain time in this either.

Sling some terms of art around, sell a book or sell a seminar or just get a reputation and use it later.

Slots will change what they dangle before me and when they do it.. but the chip doesn't change? No.
JB
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August 7th, 2014 at 4:13:51 PM permalink
Quote: BioProf

3) Would it be possible to change the volatility of video poker considering a) fixed pay tables and b) the supposedly honest deal from a 52 card deck each hand?


Only by adjusting your playing strategy; the machine can't change it. If so, it's not real video poker.
rudeboyoi
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August 7th, 2014 at 4:31:15 PM permalink
Quote: JB

Only by adjusting your playing strategy; the machine can't change it. If so, it's not real video poker.



What about something like winning streak poker where you're awarded a free ride? Couldn't they increase the chances of getting a free ride at a lower level and decrease the chances of getting a free ride at a higher level to retain the same payback percentage and make it less volatile?
JB
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August 7th, 2014 at 4:32:48 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

What about something like winning streak poker where you're awarded a free ride? Couldn't they increase the chances of getting a free ride at a lower level and decrease the chances of getting a free ride at a higher level to retain the same payback percentage and make it less volatile?


I suppose so; I was envisioning standard single-hand video poker when I posted my above reply.
Buzzard
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August 7th, 2014 at 4:34:53 PM permalink
Usually they just throw a switch in the backroom !
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tringlomane
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August 7th, 2014 at 4:37:49 PM permalink
I read this article today too. I struggle to believe this is legal under Nevada law even for slot machines. NV law says the probability of each symbol must be constant even for slot machines. So the probabilities and variance of slot payouts remain fixed while a player is actively playing (because it's illegal to change payouts while the machine is active).
AxiomOfChoice
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August 7th, 2014 at 4:41:44 PM permalink
My understanding is that the probability of each symbol appearing in any location must be constant (a different constant for each symbol and location, of course).

If that's the case then this article is clearly nonsense.
BioProf
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August 7th, 2014 at 4:52:00 PM permalink
Thanks. Glad I didn't waste much brain power on it. I'll leave the slots to my wife.
rudeboyoi
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August 7th, 2014 at 4:58:58 PM permalink
Also if they altered the volatility what would be equal? Would something that's 98.3714% payback be equal to something that's 98.3711% payback?
onenickelmiracle
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August 7th, 2014 at 5:07:00 PM permalink
I guess you have to buy the book to find out. I don't reject the premise of the book and would find addiction by design to be believable. The author of the book seems quite competent and knowledgeable being able to stick to the known facts, so I'm wondering about this.
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AxiomOfChoice
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August 7th, 2014 at 5:09:55 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

Also if they altered the volatility what would be equal? Would something that's 98.3714% payback be equal to something that's 98.3711% payback?



It is certainly possible to change variance but have the expectation be the same (exactly the same, not with rounding).
tringlomane
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August 7th, 2014 at 5:11:16 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

Also if they altered the volatility what would be equal? Would something that's 98.3714% payback be equal to something that's 98.3711% payback?



It's a very difficult thing to do in video poker without changing the payback. It naturally exists in full-pay deuces wild though.

5h, 6s, 8h, 9h, Kc is an example.

You can play optimally and go for either 5h, 8h, 9h or 5h, 6s, 8h, 9h. Both give the same EV. The straight flush draw is obviously higher variance though than just the straight draw.

For slots, if the casino is legally allowed to change win probabilities while the game is actively being played (it's not legal in NV), then it's not too hard. Here's a simplified example. If 1% of wins give 100 credits and another 1% of wins give 20 credits, then delete those paybacks in exchange for a 2% chance of winning 60 credits instead.
RealizeGaming
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August 7th, 2014 at 5:51:44 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

What about something like winning streak poker where you're awarded a free ride? Couldn't they increase the chances of getting a free ride at a lower level and decrease the chances of getting a free ride at a higher level to retain the same payback percentage and make it less volatile?



Interesting point, but i thought the "free ride" feature was truly random and it isn't influenced by wins or losses.
AxiomOfChoice
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August 7th, 2014 at 6:02:44 PM permalink
Quote: RealizeGaming

Interesting point, but i thought the "free ride" feature was truly random and it isn't influenced by wins or losses.



I am pretty sure that it would be illegal to do this (at least in Nevada). The author of the article is probably confused.
AxelWolf
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August 7th, 2014 at 6:47:54 PM permalink
Quote: BioProf

And article in vox.com today (www.vox.com/2014/8/7/5976927/slot-machines-casinos-addiction-by-design) seems to be a re-hash of Natasha Dow Schull's 2012 book.

The article states:
"...some video (slot) machines actually make internal adjustments if they notice that a player is on a losing streak and is reaching their 'pain point'. This has to be done carefully it's illegal for casinos to change the odds in a game once a player has started playing. But, [Shull] says, casinos can reduce the volatility of a game in a way that still preserves the overall payback percentage. That's technically still legal."

This leaves me with a few questions for The Wiz or for anyone else who is knowledgeable.

1) Does anyone have real facts that such alteration of volatility actually occurs? If so, which casino corporations practice it?

2) Is alteration of volatility illegal in any state or province?

3) Would it be possible to change the volatility of video poker considering a) fixed pay tables and b) the supposedly honest deal from a 52 card deck each hand? I can't imagine how it could occur, but I'm not spending a lot of brain time on it.

Thanks to all.

At the risk of sounding Bob like. without giving details exactly how they can legally do this and I prefer to keep it to myself.

On newer slots only ( disregard standard IGT Double diamond slots or Bally s Blazing 7ns type machines ) I say YES some do. Its probably not in the way you are thinking.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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August 7th, 2014 at 6:47:54 PM permalink
Quote: BioProf

And article in vox.com today (www.vox.com/2014/8/7/5976927/slot-machines-casinos-addiction-by-design) seems to be a re-hash of Natasha Dow Schull's 2012 book.

The article states:
"...some video (slot) machines actually make internal adjustments if they notice that a player is on a losing streak and is reaching their 'pain point'. This has to be done carefully it's illegal for casinos to change the odds in a game once a player has started playing. But, [Shull] says, casinos can reduce the volatility of a game in a way that still preserves the overall payback percentage. That's technically still legal."

This leaves me with a few questions for The Wiz or for anyone else who is knowledgeable.

1) Does anyone have real facts that such alteration of volatility actually occurs? If so, which casino corporations practice it?

2) Is alteration of volatility illegal in any state or province?

3) Would it be possible to change the volatility of video poker considering a) fixed pay tables and b) the supposedly honest deal from a 52 card deck each hand? I can't imagine how it could occur, but I'm not spending a lot of brain time on it.

Thanks to all.

At the risk of sounding Bob like. without giving details exactly how they can legally do this and I prefer to keep it to myself.

On newer slots only ( disregard standard IGT Double diamond slots or Bally s Blazing 7ns type machines ) I say YES some do. Its probably not in the way you are thinking.

I have played a few.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
djatc
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August 7th, 2014 at 8:14:32 PM permalink
I just read this article and found this discovery of "volatility setting" disgusting. Sometimes I feel a must hit by does this towards the dollar amount where it is break even to an advantage to play.
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AxiomOfChoice
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August 8th, 2014 at 11:14:17 AM permalink
Quote: djatc

I just read this article and found this discovery of "volatility setting" disgusting. Sometimes I feel a must hit by does this towards the dollar amount where it is break even to an advantage to play.



Are you kidding or serious here?

That is obviously not true. If it was then you would have a much larger advantage, and at a lower meter amount too.
AxelWolf
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August 8th, 2014 at 12:15:10 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Are you kidding or serious here?

That is obviously not true. If it was then you would have a much larger advantage, and at a lower meter amount too.

Key words: Sometimes I feel.

As I said, there are machines that Act in a way that would make feel this way. If you lose to much the machine will give some back.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
supergrass
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August 10th, 2014 at 6:50:35 AM permalink
I saw some slot machines have volatility settings that a player can change between spins.
The slot had 3 settings: mild, medium, super hot. Or something to that effect. The on-screen-help explains that in "mild" you will win more often but smaller prices. In "super hot" you will win less often, but bigger prices.
The on-screen-help does not mention if the return-to-player stays the same or not.
Next time I see it I will note down the brand and game name. I think it was a mainstream brand.
AxelWolf
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August 10th, 2014 at 7:32:46 AM permalink
Quote: supergrass

I saw some slot machines have volatility settings that a player can change between spins.
The slot had 3 settings: mild, medium, super hot. Or something to that effect. The on-screen-help explains that in "mild" you will win more often but smaller prices. In "super hot" you will win less often, but bigger prices.
The on-screen-help does not mention if the return-to-player stays the same or not.
Next time I see it I will note down the brand and game name. I think it was a mainstream brand.

Interesting. Pic's please.thnx
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
strictlyAP
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August 10th, 2014 at 7:48:01 AM permalink
axel thats absolutely true- there are numerous machines that have volitliaty settings that you can choose from - they have them for sure at one of the casinos near me - one of the ones we spoke about-
they are more along the lines of hit frequnecy and smaller more frequent wins
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
AxelWolf
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August 10th, 2014 at 8:00:46 AM permalink
Quote: strictlyAP

axel thats absolutely true- there are numerous machines that have volitliaty settings that you can choose from - they have them for sure at one of the casinos near me - one of the ones we spoke about-
they are more along the lines of hit frequnecy and smaller more frequent wins

I believe I only wanted pic's so when I cruising through the casino it will catch my eye. I can think of some good uses for such a machine. Always good to know something exists so your ready if the right opportunity comes along. I ave yet to see a machine like this. I will now be looking and takeing note.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxiomOfChoice
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August 10th, 2014 at 2:40:27 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I believe I only wanted pic's so when I cruising through the casino it will catch my eye. I can think of some good uses for such a machine. Always good to know something exists so your ready if the right opportunity comes along. I ave yet to see a machine like this. I will now be looking and takeing note.



I've seen this too. I suspect that the house edge is so high that it will be useless to you, but maybe not.

The one that I remember is a large wheel where you can only see the corner of the wheel. You can choose which symbol you want to be your winning symbol or something like that. I'm sure that you have seen these machines.

Also, in those stupid LoTR slots (which I am never playing again) you often get awarded free spins. You can play them at any time, or collect until you get up to 50 (once you are at 50 or more, you are forced to play of 50 of them. If you have any left over, you keep them). When you are playing your free spins, it will give you mutlipliers for each spin. With 50 it gives you a total of 140x, with fewer than 50 your multiplier will be variable (basically, every time you play them, there are 50 numbers that add up to 140. They are the same numbers each time. It sorts them randomly and, if you are playing n spins, you get the first n)

Anyway, when you are playing, you can play your multipliers in any order, and, at any time, you an combine all your multipliers into a single spin. So instead of playing 50 spins with multipliers that total 140x, you can play a single spin of 140x.

Note that 140x is not as much as it seems; it's 140x the payout of a single credit bet. The max bet is 10 credits, so it's really a 14x spin if you are playing max bet.

Also, I think that the different bonus games have different volatility, although I'm not sure which ones are more volatile. I won A LOT on the shield-picking game -- like, more than the fell beast progressive I was chasing.
onenickelmiracle
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August 10th, 2014 at 2:50:02 PM permalink
Aristocrat calls it win your way and Spielo calls it Goldify where you can choose your volatility.
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DRich
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August 11th, 2014 at 11:38:19 AM permalink
The first slot machines I remember seeing with player controlled volatility were from Incredible Technologies (yes, the same company that makes the Golden Tee arcade games). They started making slot machines about 10 years ago.
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Venthus
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August 11th, 2014 at 12:17:15 PM permalink
There's at least four units that come to mind that have a dynamic (player-controlled) volatility system--

The Outer Limits (looks like a 3-wheel WoF machine), breaks down into 1st/2nd/3rd Dimension for different amounts of variance.
Not sure what it's called, but it's a 5-reel unit where the symbols are bills and coins, and you get what lines up. (So 4 20s in a row = 80 credits) Not the Green Machine. I believe the more credits per spin, the greater the payback.
WMS's Superteam, where you can pick between high and low variance.
And this thing, which has been discussed before: http://gamingtoday.com/articles/article/28256-U1_machine

None of these change values invisibly (at least, they don't claim to) though, which I think was the original matter at hand.
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