Extra odds in Craps

Has anyone ever encountered a casino which allowed you to bet above the posted max odds on pass line bets in craps?

The reason I ask is that I was recently playing at the Borgata in Atlantic City (and I apologize for bringing up AC on this Vegas site but I wasn't sure where else to pose the question), which officially offers 5x odds on all points, but a player next to me was betting $15 on the pass and then $125 odds. He explained to me, and the dealer agreed, that for bets of $15, they allowed $125, and for bets of $30, they allowed $250 in odds. The dealer said something about this being allowed because it was better for the house, which would normally be a good explanation for any casino behavior, but in this case it didn't make sense given that the odds have no house edge. I did not get into the details but my understand was that, for example, a $25 bet would only be allowed odds up to $125 rather than any extra amount.

Is this something that happens elsewhere, and can anyone explain this practice on the casino's part? The dealer also mumbled something about them being rounded up to the next "even" number or something like that (not even in the 5/9 sense), which also didn't make much sense to me since figuring out the math on paying a $75 odds bet is no harder than on a $125 odds bet.

for the 6 and 8, its easy to do payouts when you bet in units of $25. paying out $150 on a $125 odds bet on the 6 and 8 is just 6 chips of the same denomination. doing stuff like this just helps speed up the game.

Bend the rules on something with no house edge, for the sake of speeding up the game. Makes sense to me.

BTW: Don't worry about posting AC stuff here.

There's a lot of conversation about specifics in casinos outside of Vegas. Most of it applies to all casinos, and whatever doesn't is still interesting to serious gamblers like most members here.

I am not positive, but the previous answer seems a little weak to me.

Something that I read in Tom Breitling's book, Double or Nothing, stuck with me. He told a story of an well liked gambler that came into the Golden Nugget and said he wanted to play big. The house offered him special odds in craps.

I get the impression that the Gaming Control Board gives casinos wide latitude in how many free odds they can give in craps. It also sounds like they don't care about the posted limits. In a similar manner the casino can break their maximum posted bet on a case by case basis.

My guess is that the Borgata simply gives the pit boss the freedom to increase odds to attract green chip players. Instead of advertising it, they give permission on a person by person basis. They know that most people who observe it happening don't have the bankroll to be throwing down bets of that size.

I also assume that if anyone comes in and asks specifically, they will give them the higher odds. They wouldn't want to get wrapped up in some kind of lawsuit for treating people differently.

I don't know what the maximum on the table was, but I'm willing to bet it $1000 to $2000.

I don't know of a specific rule, but two ladies next to me were betting odds way beyond the table limit of 5x @ Sahara last time I was there. I thought they just messed up the bet a few times but it became apparent they were doing it on purpose and that it was being allowed.

I tried the same thing on another day with another crew at the same casino; I was eyeballed pretty good and had to up my passline bet to up the odds. Of course, I lost the come out advantage when I did that.

5x odds in AC sometimes does mean more, and it is pretty universal throughout the city. Sometimes it's because of the 5/9 coming out to an odd number, but I've noticed it on the 6/8 too. I have yet to come up with a formula...once when I was on an amazing run (it actually relates to my first ever post on this board), I had many odd pass line bets ($55/$65/etc), but each time I asked what the max odds were, there was a set number, so obviously they were doing some kind of calculation and not just "Well, let's let him go a little more." I thought it might be that they round up to the next 25, but that didn't always work. For the $15 pass, they will let you go to 100 on the 5/9 and I think 125 on the 6/8, but only 75 on the 4/10. I would say they let you bet till you can get paid 10x of what you have on the line (that works on my last example), but they clearly DON'T when you only bet 10 on the line. Then, it's always just 50 max. It is worth further study, but after playing there for a long time, it definitely is not just a particular boss or box letting you go higher because they feel like it. In fact, if you go over their number, they will usually return it, and will not pay it if it hits.

Quote: cclub79

For the $15 pass, they will let you go to 100 on the 5/9 and I think 125 on the 6/8, but only 75 on the 4/10.

So that would be a uniform $150 payment on max odds regardless of which point hits. That would simplify dealer error and surveillance problems.

What would make sense for either a $25 or a $30 P/L bet would be to limit odds to $150,$200,$250 so that the odds payout is exactly $300.

This makes sense as a sort of modified 3/4/5 odds, although it is ironic since in the same conversation where I learned about the extra odds at the Borgata, the dealer mentioned how that casino had originally offered 3/4/5, but players (and, apparently, dealers) found it too confusing so they went to 5x across the board. So I guess it all comes down to who you trust to be able to keep up with the numbers; making it an open secret that you can do certain extra odds works as long as the players and dealers don't get confused about which point needs which of the $150,$200,$250 bets to get $300 back, and so forth.

If no one gets confused about amounts, then offering 75/100/125 and 150/200/250 reduces the number of chips that need to be counted to pay out, and encourages high-odds players to move to amounts which can be calculated and paid out more quickly, as an earlier poster noted, which makes sense to me.

Well with the $15 P/L bets now the modified odds are 3 green, 4 green, 5 green and it all pays 6 green + 3 "red chips" on the original bet. That does seem much easier for surveillance, dealers and players.

I wonder what they do with scaling it up to a $60 P/L bet? Scaled it would be 3,4,5, black chips with a pay off "6 black chips" on the odds plus $60 for original bet.
Do they just revert to the 5X odds where you would alway bet $300 odds and get $600, $450 and $360 + $60 original bet? If the money gets larger are they unwilling to grant those bonus "free odds".

Yeah I see what they're doing here, but why then put $25 on the PL when you could just put $15 and get the same results? I mean I appreciate when casinos do this, but it annoys me also. Such as with "buy" bets - you can get 4% on 25,50,75 until you hit 100 then it jumps back up to 5%.

Ah, breakage bets...the thing that has made many a new craps dealer's head spin (inclding mine).

The best way to understand why casinos do this is to imagine a craps table with a $3 minimum and single odds.

For the 4/10, a $3 line bet = $3 odds. Since the odds pay 2:1, there is no need to make it anything different.

For the 5/9, odds should be in even amounts. So $3 bet can go up to $4 odds.

For the 6/8, odds should be in multiples of 5, so a $3 line bet goes up to $5.

A $15 game is largely the same thing, just with different denominations of cheques, so the odds become $15, $20, and $25, respectively. Now just multiply everything by 5, for 5x odds, and voila--the reason for the increased limits.

Basically, everything after that derives from the number of units bet--$15 line bet=3 red cheques, which can go to 3, 4, or 5 units on the odds. Simply multiply everything by the odds multiple in question to get the limits. Similarly, a $5 line bet is thought of as 5 units--which goes to 6 units on the 5/9 to make it even, or $30--$25 on the other numbers.

Generally breakage is only used with 5x odds, and only if it needs to be. On a $10 flat bet, for example, players can only go to $50 across the board--because $50 works for all the payouts. With 3-4-5x odds that most Vegas casinos use, it's not an issue. Same goes for 10x odds--just add a zero to the flat bet and it works for all numbers--much simpler!

This seems also to be mainly an Atlantic City thing, as well. At the Sahara, where they have 5x odds, I tried putting $30 behind a $5 line bet, but the dealer would only let me add an extra dollar on top ($26).

Quote: OneAngryDwarf

Ah, breakage bets...the thing that has made many a new craps dealer's head spin (inclding mine).

The best way to understand why casinos do this is to imagine a craps table with a $3 minimum and single odds.

For the 4/10, a $3 line bet = $3 odds. Since the odds pay 2:1, there is no need to make it anything different.

For the 5/9, odds should be in even amounts. So $3 bet can go up to $4 odds.

For the 6/8, odds should be in multiples of 5, so a $3 line bet goes up to $5.

A $15 game is largely the same thing, just with different denominations of cheques, so the odds become $15, $20, and $25, respectively. Now just multiply everything by 5, for 5x odds, and voila--the reason for the increased limits.

Basically, everything after that derives from the number of units bet--$15 line bet=3 red cheques, which can go to 3, 4, or 5 units on the odds. Simply multiply everything by the odds multiple in question to get the limits. Similarly, a $5 line bet is thought of as 5 units--which goes to 6 units on the 5/9 to make it even, or $30--$25 on the other numbers.

Generally breakage is only used with 5x odds, and only if it needs to be. On a $10 flat bet, for example, players can only go to $50 across the board--because $50 works for all the payouts. With 3-4-5x odds that most Vegas casinos use, it's not an issue. Same goes for 10x odds--just add a zero to the flat bet and it works for all numbers--much simpler!

This seems also to be mainly an Atlantic City thing, as well. At the Sahara, where they have 5x odds, I tried putting $30 behind a $5 line bet, but the dealer would only let me add an extra dollar on top ($26).

Finally the right answer! I still am having a little trouble figuring out higher numbers. What's an easy way to figure out, say $65 on the line?

Quote: ahiromu

...Such as with "buy" bets - you can get 4% on 25,50,75 until you hit 100 then it jumps back up to 5%.

Actually, it is always 5%, but rounded down for bets that don't divide evenly. For example, $35 but costs $1, but $40 costs $2.

Quote: cclub79

Finally the right answer! I still am having a little trouble figuring out higher numbers. What's an easy way to figure out, say $65 on the line?

I'm told it varies a bit from place to place, but at the house I work at, the bet is rounded up to the next whole unit to determine the odds. So $65=2 green and 3 red, next closest is 3 green, or $75. $75 can go to $500 (3 units to 4, or $100 x 5) on the 5/9, and $625 (3 going to 5, or $125 x 5) on the 6/8.

There is NEVER breakage on the 4/10, it's always just a straight multiple. So $65 can go to $325 on those numbers.

This is actually a way to sneak around the odds limits that very few people will take advantage of. For example, as I mentioned, a $10 bet can only go to $50 across the board, but if you add one more dollar on top to make it $11, it's treated the same as a $15 bet for odds purposes! This means you can take $100 and $125 on the 5/9 and 6/8, respectively--well over 10 times the bet.

Just be sure to tip the dealers a little more if you decide to do this because you're creating a bit more work for them :-)

Thanks for your insights on this rule. I'm still a bit confused, though. Say a $20 line bet: does that only get $100 odds regardless of point, since $100 is a nice round number (like $50 odds on the 10)? In that case, the $15 player gets to take more odds on a point of 6 or 8 than a $20 player does. What about a $16 line player? Do they jump all the way up to the $150/200/250 odds offered to a $30 line player (which is more than a $20 bettor can wager regardless of point)?

Quote: bgriffin

Thanks for your insights on this rule. I'm still a bit confused, though. Say a $20 line bet: does that only get $100 odds regardless of point, since $100 is a nice round number (like $50 odds on the 10)? In that case, the $15 player gets to take more odds on a point of 6 or 8 than a $20 player does. What about a $16 line player? Do they jump all the way up to the $150/200/250 odds offered to a $30 line player (which is more than a $20 bettor can wager regardless of point)?

I agree, it is very confusing how you would scale these odds. You either have to keep with the jumps, or just tell your player to either reduce their $20 P/L to $15. Another option is that with $20 you go with $100, $100, $125.

Quote: pacomartin

Another option is that with $20 you go with $100, $100, $125.

This is correct. $20--or 4 units of red--stays at 4 units on the 5/9, because there is no need to round up, while on the 6/8 it would go up to 5 units. Yes, this does mean that it makes more sense to just bet $15 on the line.

Harrah's should adopt that policy for their block of low cost hotels.

Harrahs, Flamingo, Imperial Palace, and Bill's Gamblin' Hall & Saloon.

Combined with the eat at the buffets until you bust promotions it might help define the place as more of a gambling zone for craps players.

Yeah, but then the craps tables will need chairs for our fat asses.

Quote: pacomartin

Harrah's should adopt that policy for their block of low cost hotels.

Harrahs, Flamingo, Imperial Palace, and Bill's Gamblin' Hall & Saloon.

It wouldn't be a bad idea.

But Harrah's actually having player-friendly rules? Probably not happening.

Quote: OneAngryDwarf

It wouldn't be a bad idea.

But Harrah's actually having player-friendly rules? Probably not happening.

Especially not since they started tricks like paying 14 to 1 on yo and requiring minimum odds to match the table minimum--including for don't players.

Quote: SanchoPanza

requiring minimum odds to match the table minimum--including for don't players.

what does this mean?

if the table minimum is $10 and you bet $10 on the passline, then you cant make like a $5 odds bet?

Quote: pacomartin

Harrah's should adopt that policy for their block of low cost hotels.

Harrahs, Flamingo, Imperial Palace, and Bill's Gamblin' Hall & Saloon.

Combined with the eat at the buffets until you bust promotions it might help define the place as more of a gambling zone for craps players.

Also, I don't know that either typical Harrah's customers nor Harrah's dealers could handle this rule, and I suspect that Harrah's being as corporate as they are would never stand for a system which is far too complicated to be explained on a little rules plaque that sits on the side of the table.

Pitbosses have wide latitude with stuff like this... very wide. And I've seen worse, the Horizon in Tahoe advertised 10x odds on all numbers before their pit got closed. And that was advertised, who knows what the Pit actually allowed. If you think about it it's a pretty good play. The house doesn't have any edge on the bets, but technically they have no risk either. Factor in people with just enough education to know it's a good bet but not enough to know that the big six and eight are the most retarded bet in the casino... (and yes, I know they're not the MOST retarded bet, but you know what I mean). Then factor in alcohol and giving people one okay bet pays for itself.

Quote: OneAngryDwarf

It wouldn't be a bad idea.

But Harrah's actually having player-friendly rules? Probably not happening.

I have to slightly disagree since Bally's in AC (Harrahs) is the only one in town that goes to 10x (recently 100x) odds. Paco, rather than adopting these "odd" odds rules, they could just go to 10x. Much easier and actually more beneficial to the players.

Quote: cclub79

I have to slightly disagree since Bally's in AC (Harrahs) is the only one in town that goes to 10x (recently 100x) odds.

Ballys Web site continues to advertise 10X and $10 tables. There is no indication anywhere outside that they are offering anywhere near 100X.

As for the rule that several pit bosses/box people at Ballys LV, Don't bettors had to lay odds that would pay off a minimum of $10. This was learned when I tried to lay $12 against a 5 on the Don't Come. Nobody could understand it, and nobody in Atlantic City seems to have heard of it. One of those pit/box guys at Ballys LV, said he was a don't player, and when I said it wouldn't be so bad if we were at least rated on the odds bet, he said they actually could and did do that.

I believe it's just Wild Wild West at 100x for now. Check out this pic I took of the mailer. Sorry my webcam is quite old:

http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2241051360106501920MUVXqp

Quote: cclub79

I believe it's just Wild Wild West at 100x for now. Check out this pic I took of the mailer.

Is it possible you got one of those special mailers because of your playing record? Maybe you are Diamond, Platinum or that new Titanium-Vanadium combination.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Is it possible you got one of those special mailers because of your playing record? Maybe you are Diamond, Platinum or that new Titanium-Vanadium combination.

I am a Diamond, but I'm pretty sure different playing rules based on your level would run afoul of the CCC.