A wizard quote in the media
Experts such as Shackleford contend that leased slots such as Sex and the City which tend to be more elaborate and expensive for manufacturers because of the amount spent on licensing well-known brands and crafting elaborate bonuses around them also tend to have lower average paybacks than generic slots casinos can buy outright.
Lower average paybacks serve to compensate casinos and manufacturers for investing in more sophisticated features with more entertainment value, he says. With leased, or participation slots, casinos dont own the games but share revenue with manufacturers. That payback theory is sound but difficult to prove, as manufacturers dont post the chances of winning a jackpot. - Liz Bentson
I was talking with Liz Benston (the reporter) and she said IGT wasn't very happy with this observation being in the newspaper.
Presumably, Sex and the City slots come with the same EPROM chip sets that most other machines are supplied with. So technically, it is the casino/slot partnership which must select a chip set with a lower percentage return in order to feed all the hungry mouths. IGT seems to be relying on this subtlety to say that Sex and the City is not manufactured differently than any other slot machine. The slot manager could theoretically set a Money Storm machine to have an 83% return, just as he could set Sex and the City to 97% return with the right chip set.
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I still maintain in the long term, casinos will have to reveal percentages. However, unlike today, percentages will change constantly based on length of play and a plethora of bonus periods and rewards. The idea of a hot machine will be replaced with a constantly changing read out from a server controlled slot machine floor. However, in order for this system to work, every cold machine must read the same percentage.
The server will control the final payback of the casino through constant subtle manipulation of small parameters, like shortening or lengthening bonus periods by a second or two.
Ultimately some transparency will be necessary, since the perception that machines are being tightened will ultimately do more damage than revealing actual percentages. However, the player will have to be steered from the fear that a slot manager will turn down a machine because someone is winning, to viewing higher percentages as a reward (mostly for length of play).
Why would casinos have to reveal the return of each individual slot machine? It's not done today in any jurisdiction that I know of in the United States or Canada? Some casinos (such as Atlantic City) have to report revenue for all slots and certainly every gaming board knows how slot machines at each denomination as a whole for each location is doing.
However, I don't think any gaming jurisdiction will ever force a casino to reveal the payback on each machine. First off, it would create hoarding. You would see people competing to play the same game while banks of other machines stand empty. Penny slots which are the boon for Vegas slots today would disappear. Do you display different slot machine returns for when max credits are played vs less than max credits. Would the slot machine return change as the jackpot changes? How do you account for that on each slot machine?
If legislation to force slot operators or machines were forced to show returns for each machine, you would see the entire gaming industry lobby tooth and nail to never let that bill see the light of day. That's because slot machines are the casino's bread and butter.
Some governments are better than others. For example, on scratch tickets and lotteries, you can usually go to a website to get all of the information on the game (odds, number of prizes, payback). Some tickets will have the odds of winning on the back of the ticket (but not the payback).
Regarding the point about hoarding, you don't see that much with video poker. Put a 7/5 jacks game right next to 9/6, and don't be surprised to see somebody playing the 7/5, while the 9/6 is vacant. Regarding the point about nobody else doing it, I believe the Netherlands has such a law. You can see cards showing the virtual reel weightings on 3-reel single-line games on the machines. Furthermore, if nobody was the first to do anything, progress would never be made on anything.
Quote: WizardRegarding the point about hoarding, you don't see that much with video poker. Put a 7/5 jacks game right next to 9/6, and don't be surprised to see somebody playing the 7/5, while the 9/6 is vacant.
Before I found sites like this one, I had no idea there were diferent pay tables for VP. So I woulnd't be surprised if I played machines with lesser pay tables, probably sitting next to better ones. I'd be willing to wager lots of people are as ignorant as I was.
Quote: NareedBefore I found sites like this one, I had no idea there were diferent pay tables for VP. So I woulnd't be surprised if I played machines with lesser pay tables, probably sitting next to better ones. I'd be willing to wager lots of people are as ignorant as I was.
I'm happy to have helped. You were not without a lot of company before. Even my mother will plop herself down at any video poker machine she deems to look lucky, despite my many rebukes. I think she thinks video poker machines are rigged to pay what they want, when they want, despite how you play your cards. It is hopeless trying to dislodge her opinion.
Quote: WizardEven my mother will plop herself down at any video poker machine she deems to look lucky, despite my many rebukes. I think she thinks video poker machines are rigged to pay what they want, when they want, despite how you play your cards. It is hopeless trying to dislodge her opinion.
And from an earlier thread posting:
Quote: Wizard...but mom did not take being challenged very well, so I kept my mouth shut.
I thought you meant that you had learned your lesson. :-)
Edit: Perhaps I should quote the old saying -- "When Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!"
Anyway, I'm wondering if the Wizard is Persona non Grata with various and sundry?
Quote: DocI thought you meant that you had learned your lesson. :-)
Maybe I was smarter as a kid, which your second quote referred to. That applied to my mother's logic that if I ate my vegetables it would benefit the starving children in Ethiopia. Back then I wouldn't have dared to argue the point. Today I probably would, but it wouldn't do any good.
Quote: odiousgambitsorry, didnt mean to flag a post again
Anyway, I'm wondering if the Wizard is Persona non Grata with various and sundry?
I've never seen the Wizard openly disparaged in any written article. He has created a formidable collection of comments on gaming calculations. When I said that IGT wasn't happy about the remark, I mean that Sex and the City is expected to be a major profit center for the corporation. The corporation doesn't want the public to think about rates of return when they look at a machine.
But if you look at the annual filing from a slot company, you see that their share of participation machines is more profitable than the money they get from selling hardware.
It is logical to think that the latest branded, expensive machines like Aliens, Sopranos, Wizard of Oz, Star Trek,or Wheel of Fortune etc. would come with overhead that needs to be paid for by lower returns. But technically no machine is designed worse than any other machine, it is just what setting the slot manager chooses to use.
Quote: pacomartinIt is logical to think that the latest branded, expensive machines like Aliens, Sopranos, Wizard of Oz, Star Trek,or Wheel of Fortune etc. would come with overhead that needs to be paid for by lower returns. But technically no machine is designed worse than any other machine, it is just what setting the slot manager chooses to use.
Someone I know who tried to proceed with some ideas she had for various board games/parlor games was told flatly that what they were hungry for was NASCAR related stuff. This was a few years ago. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see how important these connections are.
Quote: WizardI'm happy to have helped. You were not without a lot of company before. Even my mother will plop herself down at any video poker machine she deems to look lucky, despite my many rebukes. I think she thinks video poker machines are rigged to pay what they want, when they want, despite how you play your cards. It is hopeless trying to dislodge her opinion.
Pay tables are the least of it. Let me put it this way: after having gone to Vegas twice, now I really know what I'm doing. Many thanks.
My parents believed the power company charged a set fee according to zone and the size of a house or building, and they got the monthly receipt showing the meter readings! My mother believes she will win back any losses at a slot machine if she plays long enough. My father believes slot machines are rigged to pay at certain times.
Parents. What are you gonna do?
Anyway, the belief I really hate is "If you keep a positive attitude you'll win!"
Quote: pacomartinDespite the silliness of these beliefs, they are fundamentally what drives gaming. People desperately want to believe they have control over outcomes. It's basic human nature.
No argument, but you're missing the other big group that drives gaming: those who know the house advantage and the odds, yet expect or hope they'll get a big payoff before the math (or maths for our British members) catches up with them.
I'll even admit I hope for a big payoff, but don't expect one.
Quote: pacomartinDespite the silliness of these beliefs, they are fundamentally what drives gaming. People desperately want to believe they have control over outcomes. It's basic human nature.
I agree 100%. I think that is what drives religion too.
You do realize that you're talking about just about everybody on this board, right?Quote: NareedNo argument, but you're missing the other big group that drives gaming: those who know the house advantage and the odds, yet expect or hope they'll get a big payoff before the math (or maths for our British members) catches up with them.
Hmmmm.... I gotta remember to talk to you about this comment when/if we meet when I come to Vegas in September. It suggests that we have similar beliefs regarding organized religion.Quote: WizardI agree 100%. I think that is what drives religion too.
FYI: If you've paid attention to all of my posts, you know that, among other things, I'm a Reverend. What you might not know is that I'm Jewish, and that my desire to become an Ordained Clergy Person led me to an internet church that does not believe in God.
Quote: WizardI'm happy to have helped. You were not without a lot of company before. Even my mother will plop herself down at any video poker machine she deems to look lucky, despite my many rebukes. I think she thinks video poker machines are rigged to pay what they want, when they want, despite how you play your cards. It is hopeless trying to dislodge her opinion.
my fathers the same way. he was playing 5c deuces wild at the redrock by the foodcourt. it had a pretty terrible paytable that paid 15:1 for 5ofakind and 10:1 for a straight flush. right across from this row of machines were machines that looked exactly the same and paid back 16:1 for 5ofakind and 12:1 for a straight flush. i said he should play these ones instead indicating the slightly improved payouts. he responded i like these machines better.
Quote: DJTeddyBearYou do realize that you're talking about just about everybody on this board, right?
Certainly. That's why I included myself as part of that select group.
Although I suspect the Wizard cares more about the kind of bet he makes than about the payoff. But you'd have to ask him.
Quote: DJTeddyBearFYI: If you've paid attention to all of my posts, you know that, among other things, I'm a Reverend. What you might not know is that I'm Jewish, and that my desire to become an Ordained Clergy Person led me to an internet church that does not believe in God.
You all might be interested in Michael Shermer's views on "Agenticity." He writes the weekly "The Skeptic" column in Scientific American.
