Are casino's being stingy with comps for play?

I've been reading the Wizard's casino reviews, which are very interesting. One thing I've seemed to notice is that casinos seem to be tightening up on their comps for play.

So, my question is: Which casinos in Las Vegas are still generous to mid and high level players as far as comping the rooms and food.

Seems to me, especially downtown, they smart thing to do would be to reward players more than anybody as far as paying the room charges with the level of play You are talking about in your reviews. I mean $175 a pass with a line bet on every decision, at the Fitz? They ought to roll out the red carpet and bring out a brass band.

Quote: BenJammin

I mean $175 a pass with a line bet on every decision, at the Fitz? They ought to roll out the red carpet and bring out a brass band.

If the line bet is five dollars and odds are 3x4x5x, how do you arrive at 175 for an average bet?

I would imagine the casino would not rent that brass band but would instead use the money for their long-term gamblers with the higher levels of card use.

As to some places being stingy, well perhaps so but allowing considerable time to elapse prior to approaching a host might give their computers time to catch up with the gambler's play.

Quote: BenJammin

I mean $175 a pass with a line bet on every decision, at the Fitz? They ought to roll out the red carpet and bring out a brass band.

Sorry if I didn't make my point clear in my Fitz review. I made a $10 don't pass or don't come bet on every roll, and backed up each one with $60 on the odds. They put me down for an average bet of $175, which is about right. They rate on the odds at the Fitz, which lowers the points earned per dollar bet.

The answer to the question about who is generous comping medium to high level players is a major thrust of my reviews.

Harrah's has taken a few shots from different posters, but I feel I have gotten more than a fair shake (in Vegas, that is. In Tunica,MS I feel they are very stingy).
I play $10 PL, with full odds (which don't count). I will then place $34 to $80 inside, and will press every other roll or so. I will also tip the dealers quite frequently, and I will only play where I am staying. I will play for long stretches of time, sometimes playing right into the next morning if the dice are cooperative. I generally am rated around $170 avg bet, which is probably on the higher side of my actual play. I have never gotten Diamond in a Day (3,500 pts), but I have racked up 3,000 points in a day 3 times (RIO twice, Paris once).

My average trip to Vegas is 5 days, 3x a year, and I have not paid for a room since 2007. Granted, I have had a good run, getting a lot of playing time on a limited bank roll, which has helped give me long hours of play. I tip minimum of 25% on all bills. (I think it helps give the host a reason to stretch the amount they give you.)

RIO has been the most generous. I paid for our group's meal at Voodoo Steak Lounge ($350), and RIO picked up that plus another $100 in poolside liquor. I also had another $200 or so in food comp'd that trip. And, as a bonus, I won $3600 the last hour before we left, on a single hot roll.
Paris has comp'd me quite a bit in food each trip, and one trip when we had 7 people in our group, they comp'd us a limo to the airport, although we didn't know it was a comp at the time.

The last trip we stayed at Ceasar's, but that was a mistake. I don't play high enough to be there (I'd say you need to be in the $500 avg bet range to get much attention). Late in the trip I broke my rule and played in Paris, but I got a terrible rating for my play there too. It was almost like they knew I was not staying there this time.

To net it out, I feel the important factors for getting comp'd are:
1. Play where you stay.
2. Tip the dealers (the Pit needs to see you are doing it).
3. Discussing your rating with the Pit may sometimes get you a bit of improvement.
4. Bet within your bankroll, and be willing to play 6-8 hours a day to get extra credit.
5. Tip generously on charges going against your room. You will have to pay for all tips, but I believe the host will be more favorable with you, if you have been sweet with the staff.


Be aware that you may end up spending more on tips and added time on games, trying to get comp'd, than what the comps are actually worth. In other words, you are once again playing another negative expectation game.

Quote: RaleighCraps

5. Tip generously on charges going against your room. You will have to pay for all tips, but I believe the host will be more favorable with you, if you have been sweet with the staff.

Good post, thanks.

I assume you're saying to write the tip on the bill, as opposed to tipping in cash. I've always heard that the waitstaff prefer to be tipped in cash, because somehow the casino will report the non-cash tips to the IRS. So I usually follow that, and tip in cash. However, if it makes me look like stingy tipper when it comes to check out time, I'll reconsider doing that.

>Play where you stay.
Agreed. You can charge things there more easily. If you want to take a short nap such as after a large meal its easier. If you have a favorite place that you want to play... make your room reservation there.
>Tip the dealers (the Pit needs to see you are doing it).
Well, Floor or Pit or whatever. Yes. It has to happen and it also has to be noticed as having happened. The crew is happy. The Box will know what is going on. Somebody will be more likely to get that information into the computer. Its nice when the dealers realize that you are aware they work on tips, but when that Floor realizes that you are tipping then it can get into the computer as a favorable "plus". It certainly will never hurt you.
>Discussing your rating with the Pit may sometimes get you a bit of improvement.
I've heard about this but never done it. Its probably just as well since I can't even figure out what is meant by average bet. I wouldn't know if their records were correct or not, since my betting is often erratic.
>Bet within your bankroll, and be willing to play 6-8 hours a day to get extra credit.
Yes. The casino often considers TIME at the table to be the major factor. Its really significant when their "meter" trips over to 4.00 hours. That seems to be a biggie! No one should ever really play for comps but it would seem foolish to walk away from a craps table just prior to that meter turning over.
>Tip generously on charges going against your room.
>You will have to pay for all tips, but I believe the host will be more favorable with you ... .
Places like The Venetian will list your tips separately but will pick them up as well, so you don't have to pay the tips, but I would be both reasonable and generous with tips. Some places do only comp the actual charge but not the tip. Being generous is good because it demonstrates that you have additional discretionary funds and that means the casino will want to keep you happy. It makes them think that your happiness is a good investment for them.

Quote: FleaStiff

>Tip the dealers (the Pit needs to see you are doing it).
Well, Floor or Pit or whatever. Yes. It has to happen and it also has to be noticed as having happened. The crew is happy. The Box will know what is going on. Somebody will be more likely to get that information into the computer. Its nice when the dealers realize that you are aware they work on tips, but when that Floor realizes that you are tipping then it can get into the computer as a favorable "plus". It certainly will never hurt you.

Wait, what? Someone keys into the tracking system that a player is "nice" or "tips well" or some other non-action-related info? Don't take this comment as snarky but...why should they care (in terms of being rated)?

(For the record, I always try to be pleasant and engaging to the dealer, tipping with "dealer plays" action during a session with a final toke as I get up from the table. BTW, T minus 30 days to Vegas!)

Quote: Wizard

Good post, thanks.

I assume you're saying to write the tip on the bill, as opposed to tipping in cash. I've always heard that the waitstaff prefer to be tipped in cash, because somehow the casino will report the non-cash tips to the IRS. So I usually follow that, and tip in cash. However, if it makes me look like stingy tipper when it comes to check out time, I'll reconsider doing that.

Interesting point Wizzard. In restaurants I have been told if you leave no tip on a credit card, the IRS 'assumes' cash tip, and the wait staff has to pay as if it was 10%. I usually do 12% on cc and some cash as a GIFT to my new friend.

I have never considered the effects on the servers in Vegas when all of the tip goes on the room charge. That does make for a new dilemma. High tip on room charge makes me look like a good guy to the host, but 10% on room charge and 15% in cash makes me look like a good guy to the server.......

Old player systems probably only kept track of the player, money in, money out, and the average bet. It would be up to the pit boss to determine the discretionary comp based on tipping.

In today's world, Player tracking systems by Konami and Bally are much more sophisticated in that the quality of the player is tracked. For example, at the Paris, they record the clothes that you have on to quickly recognize you in case you move. At the Wynn, they haev your scanned driver's license picture that comes up when your card is scanned. So tips are probably recorded if the pit sees you do it.

Quote: FleaStiff

I've heard about this but never done it. Its probably just as well since I can't even figure out what is meant by average bet. I wouldn't know if their records were correct or not, since my betting is often erratic.

This one is not real easy to pull off. For craps, I have found it works best to strike up conversations with the box and the Pit whenever there is a bit of a lull. Connecting with people usually makes them want to help you. Anything that is non work related. Then when you leave you can ask what they recorded for length of time and avg bet size. This answer should be straight-forward and fairly exact. If you know you got there at 9:00 PM, and it is 12:30 AM, and they have you logged for 3 hours, ask why it isn't 3.5 hours. I've had the box tell me he docked me .5 hours because there were a number of rolls I did not play at all (cold table, or perhaps some severe drunks played for a bit and I decided to only watch.) If your avg bet sounds low, ask how they calculated that. ALWAYS ALWAYS be polite. I don't know if they can do much to change your rating for the session just played, but it can help your next session. I have had the box tell me on my second session that he was being generous to make up for what I felt was a low rating earlier by him.
Don't be afraid to ask a few questions. You need to ask specific questions, and you likely won't get real solid answers. You'll get some semi-vague responses, but usually you will get at least one nugget of information. Do it enough times, and you can start to piece together the nuggets.

I missed another tip. I 'think' it works better if you can start betting high, and then back down if you need to.
In other words, if on a decent table, I am comfortable betting $10 PL / 50 odds, and Placing $80 inside (25,30,25), I will try and start that way, and hope to at least break even on the first couple of shooters. If the box gets in his/her mind you are betting quarters, they won't bother to drop you down, if the table gets cold and you bet $34 inside for a few shooters. So you get full credit for betting quarters the whole time.
OTOH, if you start out betting $34 inside, and you do that for the first few shooters, and they get you recorded as $34, then when you do go to $80, you won't get credit for it. You will have to bet at the higher limit for quite a while before they will change your rating. This is all IMO, YMMV (your mileage may vary).

Quote: FleaStiff

>You will have to pay for all tips, but I believe the host will be more favorable with you ... .
Places like The Venetian will list your tips separately but will pick them up as well, so you don't have to pay the tips, but I would be both reasonable and generous with tips. Some places do only comp the actual charge but not the tip. Being generous is good because it demonstrates that you have additional discretionary funds and that means the casino will want to keep you happy. It makes them think that your happiness is a good investment for them.

This is very interesting about the Venetian. It was explained to me by a Host, they would not comp the tips, since tips are considered compensation. If they comp'd the tips, then in effect, the casino was paying the compensation, and as a corporation, they would then need to pay the FICA, SS, and employment taxes that go along with employee compensation, not to mention any retirement or 401K implications. I have no idea if this is acutally true. It certainly sounded plausible enough to me. It would be easy enough to track, and Venetian may just feel this is an additional benefit that their guests deserve. It would seem to set them apart from most other casinos.

I think there are comps players and non-comps players.

Me, I go to vegas once a year and I gamble perhaps $400 all told (last time closer to $300), mostly at VP, with some very minor table action. I don't expect to be comped a pack of chewing gum.

And yet I sign up for every player card I can, and won't play where I can't or won't sign up. This has worked out very well. Through Harrahs' program I get ocassional offers and good rates at their hotels. At the Stratosphere last year I ahd a great time, partly due to the discount on an all-day, all-ride pass included when signing up to their program.

This year I exepct I'll gamnle more, and perhaps I'll risk a big chunk of bankroll on a single, long craps sessions (I hope it will be long). But I still don't expect any comps.

Quote: mantic59

Wait, what? Someone keys into the tracking system that a player is "nice" or "tips well" or some other non-action-related info? Don't take this comment as snarky but...why should they care (in terms of being rated)?

(For the record, I always try to be pleasant and engaging to the dealer, tipping with "dealer plays" action during a session with a final toke as I get up from the table. BTW, T minus 30 days to Vegas!)

Does tipping get 'entered into the system'? I seriously doubt it. What I am saying though, if I am varying my bets, or playing craps where there can be vast differences in the amount that is bet by me each roll, the box or floor needs to enter in my bet amount. Generally speaking, they do this every 15 minutes or so. They can just put down what they see on the table right this minute, or they can say well, you have played the previous few hands/rolls at a higher bet than what is there now, and thus put down a slightly higher figure for you. I feel they are more apt to calculate on the high side when they recall you have been tipping the dealers, either directly or with dealer bets.

edit: See boymimbo's post above though. He indicates that newer rating systems may in fact collect more information on the players than simply time and avg bet.

Quote: Nareed

But I still don't expect any comps.

Well, you don't have to expect comps and you can turn them down if you really want to. I often decline the free drinks that the waitress offers, but I do that to concentrate on the gambling. If I'm winding my gambling down I'm liable to start cranking up the drinking rate a bit. Its the same thing when checking out of the hotel, if they are willing to lop off my meal charges, great!

Quote: FleaStiff

Well, you don't have to expect comps and you can turn them down if you really want to. I often decline the free drinks that the waitress offers, but I do that to concentrate on the gambling. If I'm winding my gambling down I'm liable to start cranking up the drinking rate a bit. Its the same thing when checking out of the hotel, if they are willing to lop off my meal charges, great!

Alcohol makes me sleepy at first (it passes), then it impairs my judgement. therefore I don't drink while I gamble. But I've ordered diet coke and the waitresses bring it along. Of course I tip them.

Anyway, no, I wouldn't refuse comps if they were offered. But I don't play for comps, and I don't expect at my level of play that I should either.

The way I see it is like this: if you like playing with large wagers for several hours, and can afford it, then you should get comps. Otherwise it's not a goal and it shouldn't be. You might wind up losing hundreds, or worse, to score a free night. Better pay for the night.

Quote: Nareed

I think there are comps players and non-comps players.

... And yet I sign up for every player card I can, and won't play where I can't or won't sign up. This has worked out very well. Through Harrahs' program I get ocassional offers and good rates at their hotels.

I am a low-roller BJ player ($10 a hand). In the 1990's I got spoiled by the easy comps that the Horseshoe used to give out. They'd get all my play on a 2 or 3 day trip, and I never paid for a meal. The one time I stayed in their hotel, they comped a night. Good times.

But my experience lately confirms what Max Rubin said in a 2007 podcast about BJ comps: "a $10 player is invisible nowadays". Free drinks is all you'll get.

Most casinos pretend to tie their slot club and table games together. But many hours of BJ play has never earned me more than a token number of player's points, and I've never gotten any offers in the mail. Every player sits down at a $5 table with their $100 bill and their players card. And the boss logs the card. But if typical red-chip play isn't going to earn any comps, why do they bother? It seems like a total waste of time.

hi, I'm a craps dealer....the tips themselves are not counted towards your comps, but the fact you are tipping may influence what the floor rates you at. This is especially true if the floor is a dual rate.

Quote: appistappis

hi, I'm a craps dealer....the tips themselves are not counted towards your comps, but the fact you are tipping may influence what the floor rates you at. This is especially true if the floor is a dual rate.

Can you explain what is meant by "if the floor is a dual rate" ?

most casino's use dual rate positions......an example is a dual rate supervisor....some days they supervise, some days they deal...they are payed for the day at the job they do that day, so even though they are supervising today, they have a vested interest in having the toke rate as high as possible. You toke, they like you and might rate you a little higher.

Quote: appistappis

most casino's use dual rate positions......an example is a dual rate supervisor....some days they supervise, some days they deal...they are payed for the day at the job they do that day, so even though they are supervising today, they have a vested interest in having the toke rate as high as possible. You toke, they like you and might rate you a little higher.

I see, so at some casinos the pit man never deals and has no personal reward in tips?

Quote: ahiromu

I see, so at some casinos the pit man never deals and has no personal reward in tips?

Depends. Here our everyone down from management are cut in on our tips. Our Pit Bosses never deal and are cut in. We also have gaming Supervisors who sometimes deal, sometimes run the pit.

Originally the management were not included in tips. It changed without us being asked as everything is handled by a comittee.

It sucks.

I probably would be considered an over tipper at the craps tables, but have gotten some fantastic and inflated ratings from the boxman/pit staff because of it.

When tipping at craps, I have noticed that sometimes quiet passline tips go unnoticed, unless you add shoes (odds) behind them. Wait for that moment right before the stickman passes the dice to the shooter, or better yet, wait until you are the shooter and the dice have been passed to you. Then toss out a black or green chip and say, "All the hard ways for a quarter (or nickle) for the boys (and girls)." You would have the full attention of the dealers, stickman, boxman and often the pit staff.

When I was a younger man and didn't have the bankroll I have now, I would do the same thing with a $5 chip. I always want my tip to be noticed. It also allows the stickman to soft hustle to the rest of the table and shout back, "Thank you sir! Dealers always appreciate tips."

The funny thing is that I personally never play any of the center bets myself. I am always on the pass/don't pass and come/don't come with full odds. However, whenever I tip, I like to gamble with the dealer's money on fire bets, hardways, and even single roll events. Yes, I know that ideally dealers would prefer to be on the passline with full odds too, but it's my money and I'll tip how I please.

I would have to agree that casino's are being stingy with comps especially at some of the larger houses. Not to be completely bias, I try to wait until I get noticed by the pit before I start my buy in. However, I think they give you a standard comp rate based on your initial bets which aren't revised until they do another pass. So if you bet low to start, you're comped low. And if you start betting higher afterwards, the pit might not have changed the comp rate. Now if you bet big to start, then you are comped big to start.

I also have a gut feeling that the pit reduces the comps when the table is getting hot and the chip stacks are piling up on the rails. I was at a hot craps table last week and the average bet per player was about $100. This table was hot and there were people pressing and putting up all sorts of weird combinations. I'd say there were plenty of people making a sizeable amount of money. This lasted for about 1/2 hr. When I went to check my comps after I left, I barely made enough to get a cup of coffee. Not too pleased about that. I doubt my rating was revised upwards. I started low $10 bets and moved up gradually. Did I get noticed with my large chip stack piling up.....probably not.

Is there anything you can do if you feel undercomped when you start betting low and progressing up?

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

...When I went to check my comps after I left, I barely made enough to get a cup of coffee.

Perhaps it simply hadn't registered yet...

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

Is there anything you can do if you feel undercomped when you start betting low and progressing up?

When you color-up, save a chip so that as they are pushing your chips to you (and the pit boss is looking), toss in the tip chip.

My brother happened to be watching the pit boss one day. As the box announced the color up total, he was making a note on a rate card, presumably my rate card. As the dealer was sliding me my chips, I threw in a green 'for the boys.' The pit boss, who was putting the rate card back in the stack at the time, took it back and made another note on it. My brother is positive that my tip affected my rate.

I had about $1.75 in comps at the table that registered. Based on action at about $100 per roll across place bets ($80-84), the pass with odds (20), for say 1/2 hr, I think I should have made more than a cup of coffee. But then again, everyone crowded into the table. People buying in for 300 - 1000. I doubt I was noticed.

I like to tip when I color up. But at this cheapo - table where everyone was raking it in and not tossing a penny to the dealers, I decided to tip while I was hitting my numbers. Just a little, buck here, buck there. Surprisingly, this did get some notice from the boxman, because she noticed that one of the croupiers forgot to pay my place bet. I hadn't noticed it either. Tipping does get some notice.

Quote: Melman

I am a low-roller BJ player ($10 a hand). In the 1990's I got spoiled by the easy comps that the Horseshoe used to give out. They'd get all my play on a 2 or 3 day trip, and I never paid for a meal. The one time I stayed in their hotel, they comped a night. Good times.

But my experience lately confirms what Max Rubin said in a 2007 podcast about BJ comps: "a $10 player is invisible nowadays". Free drinks is all you'll get.

Most casinos pretend to tie their slot club and table games together. But many hours of BJ play has never earned me more than a token number of player's points, and I've never gotten any offers in the mail. Every player sits down at a $5 table with their $100 bill and their players card. And the boss logs the card. But if typical red-chip play isn't going to earn any comps, why do they bother? It seems like a total waste of time.

Last week I played $10 a hand for 4 hours at an off-strip casino. Spread out over 3 sessions, cashing in/out each time and always showing my player's card. At about dinner time I called the boss over and nicely asked him "am I earning anything here playing $10 a hand, or am I wasting your time to track me since I never get anything in the mail from your casino?" He chewed my ear for several minutes about how he didn't really understand how the combined table/slot point system worked, but that he'd be glad to comp me a dinner since he knew I'd been betting $10 "all day". I was going to say that this confirms the old theory about comping... that "it never hurts to ask"... but I didn't really even ask in this case.

And over an entire day of play, I never saw anyone else ask for a comp or indeed say anything to the pit staff. So maybe just being nice counts for something.

Quote: Melman

that "it never hurts to ask"... but I didn't really even ask in this case.

The indirect approach probably is helpful. It emphasizes the discretionary nature of comps and the non-demanding approach seems to provide them with an opportunity rather than responding directly to a request for a comp. They seem to prefer a conversational, almost off-hand somewhat subtle comment to a more blatant "Hey, have I earned a meal comp yet?".

As to the Green chip tip affecting a rating: yes. I'm sure. Up-rating a tipper is marginal but that margin may make a difference. If the Floor can keep only some players happy, he will keep the tippers happy. His day goes better and he was probably a dealer before he became a floor person. Often a Floor Person can be a Dual Rate who wears a suit and Floors one day and wears a uniform and deals the next.

There used to be signs in restaurants Tipping Is Un-American. I think the movie Petrified Forrest features that sign in the cafe. Perhaps that was the attitude then. And perhaps that is a good attitude to have now... but NOT when you are in Las Vegas.

I don't have as much experience with comps at the Vegas casinos, but I can say that at the Borgata in Atlantic City (which is legitimately a Vegas-caliber casino, not some random craphole), their comp system credits comp dollars immediately after you leave a table to an account which you can check the balance of any time--so I have do lots of checking of my account balance between tables and experimenting with what produces the best results.

I can definitely say that while tipping is not guaranteed to get you anything, the few times when I have been comped unusually high amounts, relative to the norm for a given amount of time and bet level and game, have been when I was tipping particularly generously (especially at the craps table), so I've seen some concrete evidence of it being worthwhile. I've also gotten particularly good comps at tables with very friendly dealers and pit bosses who I'd struck up conversations with, so likewise the tips about getting people to like you are important. In both cases, it seems to help a lot to play when the casino is less busy, the better to make sure your bets are getting noticed and the more likely that the staff will have time to be friendly.

On the comp dollars for tips to waiters point: I have always assumed that the reason this is typically not allowed is because a player in cahoots with a casino employee could exploit this system to "extract" their comp dollars in cash (extra generous tip, some of which the employee pays back to you at a later date). But maybe this is too farfetched a concern, and too much hassle for too little tangible gain, for the casinos to care much; the tax reason makes sense too.

Quote: FleaStiff

There used to be signs in restaurants Tipping Is Un-American. I think the movie Petrified Forrest features that sign in the cafe.

Watch for it early in the movie:
Solid adaptation of Robert Sherwood play, focusing on ironic survival of the physically fit in civilized world. Bogart is Duke Mantee, escaped gangster, who holds writer Howard, dreamer Davis, and others hostage at roadside restaurant in Arizona. Stagy, but extremely well acted and surprisingly fresh.

9:00am Eastern Saturday April 21st.

Quote: FleaStiff

There used to be signs in restaurants Tipping Is Un-American.

One establishment that I frequent has a drawing of a pagoda and the following: Tipping is not a city in China.