Informal Mac poll
Poll
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| | 3 votes (5.26%) | ||
| No votes (0%) | |||
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| | 4 votes (7.01%) | ||
| | 2 votes (3.5%) | ||
| No votes (0%) | |||
| | 6 votes (10.52%) | ||
| | 2 votes (3.5%) | ||
| | 5 votes (8.77%) |
57 members have voted
Quote: NareedYou know what's uglier? A machine that can't be turned on because the switch is hidden.
Well ... On my desktop tower, the power switch is on the back panel jammed against the wall. If I only look at the front, I could argue it's hidden too.
Some new car models do not have a key hole for ignition any more. You just carry a transmitter in your pocket, the car senses it, and you just need to push a button to start the engine. Is that ugly? I mean, imagine yourself sitting in that car, and desperately looking for a key hole.
Some diesel cars won't stop the engine when you turn the ignition off. You need to push a button to stop it.
The bottom line is ... know your equipment. It's not the appliance's fault if you don't know how to use it or where a particular control is located.
Quote:
So what's intuitive about having to ask the salesman or read the manual, just to be able to turn the Mac on
Well ... no offence, but 99.9% of people are able to find the power switch without asking a sales person. I have never before heard of a story like yours.
As for "intuitiveness", that is usually said about Apple software and user interface. I have never heard anyone say that mac's hardware is "intuitive". I can think of characterising it as beautiful, elegant, efficient, or reliable - all those things position it aside from other kinds of hardware. But intuitive? How "intuitive" can a monitor get?
Quote: NareedOk, here's the progression:
1) Someone I know gets a Mac and has it set up.
2) She tells me the printer doesn't work and that the guy who set up the Mac can't get it to work
3) After a few days she asks me to install the printer
4) I get to the Mac, have trouble finding the hidden on switch, have trouble getting rid of windows of junk, find a confusing tool bar, and accidentally see the printer may be installed.
5) After some more fumbling with this "intuitive" machine, I manage to test the printer, which does work.
Of course, I have no idea what really happened (meaning happened outside of your observations), but here are a few guesses.
(1) Whoever set up the Mac had it working but had not added the printer to the list of printers to choose from when printing.
(2) Your friend didn't know how to add the printer to the list and asked for help.
(3) Before you got there, the friend's daughter (was she six or maybe seven years old?) clicked a couple of buttons and added the printer to the list just fine so that it was really working before you had your bad experience.
(4) The daughter also got her kicks by setting up a bunch of gibberish on the screen to cause her mother nightmares.
(5) You were the unlucky prey who fell into the kid's trap.
By the way, reading the manual isn't always necessary or even common with a new Mac, but if you can't even find the on/off switch on a computer, it wouldn't hurt to look at the first page or two of the book. ;-)
Quote: weaselmanWell ... On my desktop tower, the power switch is on the back panel jammed against the wall. If I only look at the front, I could argue it's hidden too.
Yes, that's hidden. But if you feel around the back, do you instantly recognize the switch when you touch it, or do you confuse it with a decal?
My Apple ][e had a switch on the back, too. So did some fo the first PCs I had. These days most PCs have the switch on the front.
Quote:Some new car models do not have a key hole for ignition any more. You just carry a transmitter in your pocket, the car senses it, and you just need to push a button to start the engine. Is that ugly? I mean, imagine yourself sitting in that car, and desperately looking for a key hole.
Yes. I drove a car like that once, and the owner was considerate enough to tell me how to turn it on. If I'd been left to my own devices, I'd never have guessed to: a) step on the break pedal, b) make sure you have the car's fob on you and c) push the ignition button. I'd have wound up looking up the owner's manual.
Quote:Some diesel cars won't stop the engine when you turn the ignition off. You need to push a button to stop it.
I din't know that, but I'm not surprised. i do know Diesel engines are different from gas engines.
Quote:The bottom line is ... know your equipment. It's not the appliance's fault if you don't know how to use it or where a particular control is located.
It's not my equipment, thank god :)
Quote:Well ... no offence, but 99.9% of people are able to find the power switch without asking a sales person. I have never before heard of a story like yours.
Yes, well, the Mac's owner, her daughter and myself couldn't find the switch.
Quote:As for "intuitiveness", that is usually said about Apple software and user interface.
That's also not so.
Take the window controls on the left. That flies against centuries of Western custom. When you read a newspaper, do you reach for the left corner to turn the page? Do you reach for the left side of a book to turn the page? Back when TVs had controls on the front which you were supposed to use, they were always on the right side (power/volume knowb, channel selector, color and hue controls, etc). Your car's ignition is on the right, as is the stick shift. Most people have the mouse to the rigth of the keyboard; except lefties, I suppose. Also most people place their computer to the right of the monitor. The monitor has the on switch and controls on the right.
Should I keep going?
The point is having the controls on the left is as counter-intuitive as I can think of.
I also didn't think much of having the computer's controls at the top of the screen. And I certainly wouldn't guess the Mac logo would be for anything but information about Mac, not the equivalent to a command button. And using colors for window controls rather than pictograms isn't intuitive. You can easily guess what the pictograms are, but what is red supposed to be? or green?
Quote:How "intuitive" can a monitor get?
Like, by literally having a visible switch?
Quote: Doc(3) Before you got there, the friend's daughter (was she six or maybe seven years old?) clicked a couple of buttons and added the printer to the list just fine so that it was really working before you had your bad experience.
The daughter is 41. And I thought you just connected the pritner and it was ready. No one said anything about having to go to the trouble of adding the sole printer to any list. Isnt' this wonder of a machine smart enough to know if there's only one printer you'll want to use it for printing? because a PC sets the sole printer as default without being told.
Quote: weaselmanSome new car models do not have a key hole for ignition any more. You just carry a transmitter in your pocket, the car senses it, and you just need to push a button to start the engine. Is that ugly? I mean, imagine yourself sitting in that car, and desperately looking for a key hole.
The bottom line is ... know your equipment. It's not the appliance's fault if you don't know how to use it or where a particular control is located.
This is precisely what I went through last time I rented a car a few years ago. I walked back into the office and asked someone for a key since all they gave me was a black plastic doohickey. <facepalm> But had that happened to Nareed, he'd be spending three pages of a Vegas forum thread on how he'd been unjustly humiliated by counter-intuitive advancements in vehicle design.
Quote: zippyboyThis is fascinating to me. I've used Macs and PCs for years and I completely see your point. Concerning the printer problem, we Mac users just pop in the install CD and double click, so it installs itself. You are obviously a PC user and approached the printer problem like a Windows user would, looking for the wizard or whatever. Interesting. I remember when Windows 95 came out, the whole point to the START button was to entice new users to the OS, giving them a starting point if they've never used a PC before. It was supposed to be intuitive, much like Apple wants to be, but obviously to someone who's never used a Mac, the printer was a problem.
Personally, as a Apple enthusiast, I hate all the PC cryptic messages that don't explain anything and try to scare me into....what? I don't know. (WARNING: You are about to bingle-bangle the dongle. Are you sure you want to do this?) If my car ran this way, I'd never buy another of that brand. WARNING: You are about to turn left. WARNING: You have reset the radio to another station. Are you sure you want to do this?
I think PC users are smug in that they're proud of being such computer dorks they understand this junk, which isn't intuitive to people just entering the computer world, but is to someone who grew up with DOS.
Apple users appreciate the beauty of the hardware, which just exudes quality in everything they make. Out of the box, everything Apple makes are fine pieces of elegance and thoughtful design compared to the plasticy cheap PC, which is made for the masses and was borne from the DOS geeks of years past. It's like the difference between Ferrari and Ford, but without the same price differences. Are you a Ferrari guy? Do you appreciate quality? Or are you looking for mass market commonplace stuff you can get parts for on every corner? It's not that Mac users are snobs. It's both the OS and the hardware. Are you Beretta or Bersa? McDonalds or sushi? Alpine or Kenwood? Rolex or Timex? I imagine Timex users do probably think Rolex guys are snobs. Sour grapes.
Very impressive post, but so were Nareed's. I want a cheap Rolex, and that is a problem. But, given my HATRED of microsoft, I feel horrible that I support them. I just need a very basic notebook that handles internet well. Does Mac mean Apple, only? What might I be spending to satisfy my basic requirements? And, how do they do re battery life?
Quote: thecesspitYou'll end being fixed by the insertion of a pink slip into your last pay cheque...
Do you mind briefly translating what kp and you meant, for a casual user?
Quote: weaselmanI suppose, you are not alone, why else would support people on the phone always ask if your appliance is plugged in when you call to get help with a problem?
I worked in tech support during the Ethernet rollout on my college campus. One of the tests we did routinely was the "rat-hair check" -- make sure there isn't any dust or hair in the jack that gets in the way of the cable connection. In retrospect, it's not surprising that would happen: college students don't vacuum much and there's a lot of dust in drafty 150+ year old buildings. It's just something you never consider unless you're told to, and just blowing into the jack solved a whole lot of network problems.
Quote: Nareed
My Apple ][e had a switch on the back, too. So did some fo the first PCs I had. These days most PCs have the switch on the front.
My point exactly. Things change. A change takes some time to adopt. It does not mean, it's a bad thing.
Quote:Yes. I drove a car like that once, and the owner was considerate enough to tell me how to turn it on. If I'd been left to my own devices, I'd never have guessed to: a) step on the break pedal, b) make sure you have the car's fob on you and c) push the ignition button. I'd have wound up looking up the owner's manual.
I assume, that makes you instantly dismiss the idea of ever owning a car like that regardless of what may be inside, and what features it might have to offer, just like you do with mac?
Quote:I din't know that, but I'm not surprised. i do know Diesel engines are different from gas engines.
Exactly. Macs are also different from PCs. That's the point. Different doesn't mean bad.
Quote:Yes, well, the Mac's owner, her daughter and myself couldn't find the switch.
If the owner can't find the switch ... perhaps, he does not need a computer? I mean what was he using it for before you found the switch?
Quote:That's also not so.
Yeah ... it is :)
Quote:Take the window controls on the left. That flies against centuries of Western custom.
I never heard of such "custom", but regardless ... checking email on your phone is against the custom too, and so is having a phone, not connected to anything by wire. 16:9 TVs are against the 4:3 "custom". A car, where you have nothing to do with your left leg are against the custom ... A car itself, is against centuries of custom of riding horses.
Quote:When you read a newspaper, do you reach for the left corner to turn the page? Do you reach for the left side of a book to turn the page?
No. But neither do I reach to the top right.
Quote:Back when TVs had controls on the front which you were supposed to use, they were always on the right side (power/volume knowb, channel selector, color and hue controls, etc).
Not at the top though.
Quote:Your car's ignition is on the right, as is the stick shift.
How about the windshield wipers control? It is on the left.
Quote:Most people have the mouse to the rigth of the keyboard; except lefties, I suppose.
Yeah. But they have their keyboard to the left of the mouse, don't they?
Quote:Also most people place their computer to the right of the monitor.
Nope. Most people put it under the table. Some have it underneath the monitor.
Quote:The monitor has the on switch and controls on the right.
Are they on the top edge of the screen?
Quote:Should I keep going?
Please, do ... you are still to find one relevant example.
Quote:I also didn't think much of having the computer's controls at the top of the screen.
But you are fine with window controls being there at the same time, aren't you?
Quote:And I certainly wouldn't guess the Mac logo would be for anything but information about Mac, not the equivalent to a command button.
So, having a useless decal with no function sitting there makes more sense to you than actually making it have some use? Would you expect anything at all to happen when you click on the Bodog logo on the right of this page, or do you think that anything having a trademark on it must be useless?
Quote:And using colors for window controls rather than pictograms isn't intuitive.
It is equally intuitive. You are just used to pictograms, that's all.
Quote:You can easily guess what the pictograms are, but what is red supposed to be? or green?
Really? Guess it? How can you possibly "guess" what "_" means? Red means "stop" (that's the "western custom") - or close the window in this context. Likewise, green means "go" (maximize it).
If you are going to use controls, you'll need to hover your mouse over them first anyway. So, Mac's way is good for both kinds of people - whether you find pictures or colors more intuitive, it accommodates you. Unlike windoze.
Quote: dmVery impressive post, but so were Nareed's. I want a cheap Rolex, and that is a problem. But, given my HATRED of microsoft, I feel horrible that I support them. I just need a very basic notebook that handles internet well. Does Mac mean Apple, only? What might I be spending to satisfy my basic requirements? And, how do they do re battery life?
You sound like you need a ubuntu netbook. Or, perhaps, an android tablet.
To answer the question about battery life ... not so good actually, unless you turn it off when you are not using it. Unlike windoze, when a mac laptop hibernates, it keeps draining the battery (however slowly) ... it is the price you pay for it being instantly "on" when you open it up, as opposed to windoze, that has to read all its memory contents back from the hard drive, which can get really slow especially if you do have a decent amount of RAM, and have been using it heavily before hibernation.
Meh.
Quote: NareedYou know what's uglier? A machine that can't be turned on because the switch is hidden.
Besides, even though I knew it was somewhere on the back of the monitor ont he left, I couldn't see it when I looked. And when I felt for it, it was so nearly flush to the surface as to appear to be something else.
So what's intuitive about having to ask the salesman or read the manual, just to be able to turn the Mac on
If an everyday user has trouble turning his own computer on or off REPEATEDLY, then he should stick to TV. Otherwise, I can learn to start a Ferrari no matter how difficult it might initially be. Plus, the unwanted user who is using it maybe had his session shortened if the owner ever comes home.
Quote: weaselmanI assume, that makes you instantly dismiss the idea of ever owning a car like that regardless of what may be inside, and what features it might have to offer, just like you do with mac?
It would if I needed to learn a whole new way of driving, like having to locate all the controls all over again and finding out the steering wheel is to the left rather than in front of me.
But I'll level with you. When I was shopping for a car earlier this year, I did look at where the controls where and thought about how much of an adjustment was required. I wasn't happy with the way the Corolla has dials on the A/C controls, and to this day I keep switching vents when I want to increase or decrease the flow. I also keep glancing at the radio station/CD track display when I want to know the time, then I recall the clock is lower down. And I've had the car for 8 months or so.
On the other hand it does display the gear selection on the dashboard, which is more convenient than looking down to the lever to see where it's located. And it has no useless cruise control buttons to clutter up the works. The lights are on the left of the steering column, the windshield wipers are on the right, just as I'm used to, and the lock controls are labeled.
Quote:If the owner can't find the switch ... perhaps, he does not need a computer? I mean what was he using it for before you found the switch?
The owner called me to ask how to turn it on. I told her to press or toggle the power switch. She said she couldn't find it. I told her to look up the manual. She called me later to say where she'd found the switch. Her daughter also called to ask, I told her to call her mother.
Happy?
I'm not going to go through your nitpicking.
Quote: thecesspitNo such thing as "Western custom"
Yes, there is. Page "controls" for books, binders, newspaper, etc are on the right. In non-Western settings, like in Arab countries, books and papers open the other way. The one exception is Israel which is Western today, but is stuck with a right to left language.
Quote:... and the Apple OS has been using top left for LONGER than Windows has been using top right.
Maybe so. But Mac users are still a minority.
Quote: NareedIt would if I needed to learn a whole new way of driving, like having to locate all the controls all over again and finding out the steering wheel is to the left rather than in front of me.
We are not talking about a whole new way ... Just an unusually looking "power switch" (ignition keyhole replaced with a button).
Quote:On the other hand it does display the gear selection on the dashboard, which is more convenient than looking down to the lever to see where it's located.
But goes against the custom, doesn't it?
Quote:I'm not going to go through your nitpicking.
Why am I not surprised?
Quote: NareedBTW I assume that since they prize "intuitiveness" so highly in their software, all Mac users ahve already switched to the Metric System.
What's intuitive about metric system?
A system, based on the speed of light (which is so huge, that there is no way to imagine it in any other form than just a long sequence of zeroes), an arbitrary sized cylinder of platinum-iridium, and 9,192,631,770 periods of hyperfine level transition of caesium 133 at absolute zero ...
You call it "intuitive"? Well ... in that case, once again, I must conclude that you are using some very special definition of "intuition", having nothing to do whatsoever with what the rest of us use. Perhaps, the mac is indeed not the best choice for you then ...
Quote: NareedBTW I assume that since they prize "intuitiveness" so highly in their software, all Mac users ahve already switched to the Metric System.
yes they did.
I think for someone who just tried it once you are having a total bitch fit. I wouldn't expect you to know exactly how to use in 30 minutes and i dont think it makes you a dolt.
As someone who has ZERO techy skills I found it very easy to use once I found my bearings. It was confusing for a bit because I was thinking in terms of windows and start menu's and such .
Where there is a big difference however is you can take your Mac down to the AAPL store and gues what they will show you everything you want to know on your very own computer!! They probably offer that at the Dell, Costco, Walmart & Microsoft stores too!! They have those right??
Quote: weaselmanBut goes against the custom, doesn't it?
No. The older automatic cars had the lever on the steering column, with the display in front of the driver. This restores the custom that was, briefly, lost when the thing was moved to the floor.
Quote: NareedNo. The older automatic cars had the lever on the steering column, with the display in front of the driver. This restores the custom that was, briefly, lost when the thing was moved to the floor.
No it doesn't. To restore the custom, they'd need to move the lever back as well, wouldn't they?
BTW, do you know what goes most against the custom? Metric system!
Quote: Scotty71I think for someone who just tried it once you are having a total bitch fit. I wouldn't expect you to know exactly how to use in 30 minutes and i dont think it makes you a dolt.
I posted that I tried to do something that would be simple in Windows, and I found myself facing endless frustration in a machine that, to me, made no sense at all, starting with finding it difficult to even turn it on. And that this seems to me to fly int eh face of Apple's reputation for bein "intuitive" and easy to use.
The bitch fit comes from the fact that I criticized a machine and found myself criticized and ridiculed for daring to do so.
Quote:Where there is a big difference however is you can take your Mac down to the AAPL store and gues what they will show you everything you want to know on your very own computer!! They probably offer that at the Dell, Costco, Walmart & Microsoft stores too!! They have those right??
It's not my machine. I was doing a favor for someone.
For the record, you can criticize, insult, libel, slander and muckrake Windows, Microsoft and Bill Gates, and you won't get even a mild rise out of me. I neither own stock in MS, nor am personal friends with Mr. Gates. I did email him once, long ago, about a problem obtaining a free Office upgrade in Mexico, or at least I sent an email to an address I was told was his, and the next day the MS people in Mexico called to tell me I could pick up the upgrade disk free of charge. So I have a small regard for the man and his company for good customer service.
Quote: Nareed
On the other hand it does display the gear selection on the dashboard, which is more convenient than looking down to the lever to see where it's located. And it has no useless cruise control buttons to clutter up the works. The lights are on the left of the steering column, the windshield wipers are on the right, just as I'm used to, and the lock controls are labeled.
Gotta love Nareed. She hits the bullseye on one shot, and might the miss the whole side of the barn on the next. In fact, the only time you MIGHT need to look at the display is as you are actually shifting a gear, so you want it right beside the shifter. I don't want the display right in my face and in the way of stuff I DO need to see. If I put the trans in DR, fortunately, it stays there until I change it. If I'm driving down the interstate at 77 mph, I don't need to continuously recheck to make sure I'm not in P or R or N. If I'm backing up, even if I forgot what gear I put in, I can see which direction I seem to be moving. Even if it's pitch black and I don't have my lights on, I can feel the motion the car is moving in. Then when I have stopped backing I intuitively remember to put it in DR or P or N. Actually, I know the shift configuration on my car and never look at the shifter. That Toyota is not quite as smart as you first thought.
Quote: zippyboyThis is precisely what I went through last time I rented a car a few years ago. I walked back into the office and asked someone for a key since all they gave me was a black plastic doohickey. <facepalm> But had that happened to Nareed, he'd be spending three pages of a Vegas forum thread on how he'd been unjustly humiliated by counter-intuitive advancements in vehicle design.
I rented an "economy" in Vegas that actually turned into a huge handicapped van. Never did figure out how to turn on the cooling.
BFD. I only drove it 47 miles. But, intuitive controls on rental cars is desirable. But in something I deal with every day, I'm weighing
other traits more heavily.
Quote: weaselmanYou sound like you need a ubuntu netbook. Or, perhaps, an android tablet.
To answer the question about battery life ... not so good actually, unless you turn it off when you are not using it. Unlike windoze, when a mac laptop hibernates, it keeps draining the battery (however slowly) ... it is the price you pay for it being instantly "on" when you open it up, as opposed to windoze, that has to read all its memory contents back from the hard drive, which can get really slow especially if you do have a decent amount of RAM, and have been using it heavily before hibernation.
I actually use it desktop, mostly, but, as a standby flier I would prefer something that has a few hours of usable time. It would be plugged in at home, and on only while in actual use away. Never heard ubuntu except for this thread.
Quote: dmGotta love Nareed. She hits the bullseye on one shot, and might the miss the whole side of the barn on the next. In fact, the only time you MIGHT need to look at the display is as you are actually shifting a gear, so you want it right beside the shifter.
Not so.
On my way home there's this long, steep road going up. I think it's aroun 800 meters to one kilometer long. Often I'll shift the transmission from D to 3 or 2 (depending on the car), in lieu of flooring the gas to force the transmissions to change gears. Sometimes I forget I've done so, though, especially when I run into traffic and must slow down, and later I find the engine overreving for no apparent reason..
Now I simply check the dashboard and see the transmission is on low gear, and switch it back.
See?
On another part of my commute, there's a long, about 2 kilometers, stretch of an avenue with little traffic, with a very gentle downhill slope. Often I'll accelerate to 40 kph, release the gas pedal and put the car in neutral to save gas. I easily get up to 90 kph before I need to start breaking for the intersection. It's good to be able to check whether the car is in neutral without taking my eyes off the road.
BTW it seems you need a more intuitive quote command :P
http://www.amazon.com/Design-Everyday-Things-Donald-Norman/dp/0465067107/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320435944&sr=1-1
Quote: NareedNot so.
On my way home there's this long, steep road going up. I think it's aroun 800 meters to one kilometer long. Often I'll shift the transmission from D to 3 or 2 (depending on the car), in lieu of flooring the gas to force the transmissions to change gears. Sometimes I forget I've done so, though, especially when I run into traffic and must slow down, and later I find the engine overreving for no apparent reason..
Now I simply check the dashboard and see the transmission is on low gear, and switch it back.
See?
On another part of my commute, there's a long, about 2 kilometers, stretch of an avenue with little traffic, with a very gentle downhill slope. Often I'll accelerate to 40 kph, release the gas pedal and put the car in neutral to save gas. I easily get up to 90 kph before I need to start breaking for the intersection. It's good to be able to check whether the car is in neutral without taking my eyes off the road.
BTW it seems you need a more intuitive quote command :P
Your post is ridiculous, the manual shifting crap instead of letting the transmission do the work AUTOMATICally. So how do your eyes, without being taken off the road, tell you it's in neutral? Hope you don't go from N to R at high speed, but at least you think you will be able to see that it has happened with your eyes on...how many things simultaneously? I put my car in coast mode by
moving the shifter 1 notch forward and back to drive with 1 notch back, all by feel. Once in neutral it stays in neutral until I change it. Eyes on the road-that's at least 2, which leaves how many check to see if you are in neutral?
Quote: kpDo cross dressers have periods?[/q
POTY!!!!!
What the heck is so intuitive about a PC's "Start" menu - when the thing most people use it for is to shut down!?!?!
Quote: Nareed
On another part of my commute, there's a long, about 2 kilometers, stretch of an avenue with little traffic, with a very gentle downhill slope. Often I'll accelerate to 40 kph, release the gas pedal and put the car in neutral to save gas. I easily get up to 90 kph before I need to start breaking for the intersection. It's good to be able to check whether the car is in neutral without taking my eyes off the road.
Seriously now. NEVER put your car in neutral while moving, especially on a slope. It is tremendously dangerous. And it does not save any noticeable amount of gas anyway compared to just letting go of the pedal.
Quote: weaselmanSeriously now. NEVER put your car in neutral while moving, especially on a slope. It is tremendously dangerous.
Why? In an automatic there's a neutral setting, and in a manual you can move the stick to neutral, or just step on the clutch. I assume it's there for a reason. I don't do it on the highway, because I never know when I'll need to accelerate in a hurry. But in this street it's perfectly safe.
Quote:And it does not save any noticeable amount of gas anyway compared to just letting go of the pedal.
It depends. On a steep slope it won't make any difference. On a gentle slope, it does make a small difference.
Quote: NareedWhy?
Because if something happens on the road that makes you suddenly break, it'll get really ugly.
Quote:In an automatic there's a neutral setting, and in a manual you can move the stick to neutral, or just step on the clutch. I assume it's there for a reason.
Yeah. The clutch is necessary to start and stop moving. You cannot stop the car with engine running in gear.
As for automatic, the only situation you may ever need neural is if you cannot start the engine and need to move the car. That's about it.
Quote:It depends. On a steep slope it won't make any difference. On a gentle slope, it does make a small difference.
No, it does not. Think about it. Let go off accelerator and look at your tachometer. Your engine has a fixed volume, the amount of gas you spend per minute is directly proportional to your rpm. If speed is about the same, you are spending the same amount of gas in gear and in neutral.
Quote: weaselmanBecause if something happens on the road that makes you suddenly break, it'll get really ugly.
The breaks work perfectly well on neutral.
Quote: weaselmanNo, it does not. Think about it. Let go off accelerator and look at your tachometer. Your engine has a fixed volume, the amount of gas you spend per minute is directly proportional to your rpm. If speed is about the same, you are spending the same amount of gas in gear and in neutral.
It's not fait to ammend your posts afterwards.
I have looked. On a steep slope the car goes quickly into high gear and low revs. On a gentle slope it takes forever to switch gears. When I put it in neutral the RPMs go down about 20-25% By what you wrote above, that's less gas. In this street, assuming no traffic, that means less gas for about 1,600 meters straight before I need to break. That's about one mile in the non-intuitive system.
So it's not much and it's not long, but a little each day 5 to 7 days a week, every week for years, it adds up.
Also, when your car is going down a hill in gear, with your foot off the gas (either not on either pedal, or on the brake), the computer shuts down the fuel pump and spark; if you have a car with a fuel computer, the mpg will read "999.9", or "---.-", depending on the make. It does this to squeeze out extra mpg. If you put the car in neutral, the computer switches to idle mode, and it uses more gas.
But drive however you want, I don't care.
Quote: MoscaEngine braking.
It's a gentle slope. If you stand there and don't look too far down the street, you don't even realize the street goes down.
Quote:Also, when your car is going down a hill in gear, with your foot off the gas (either not on either pedal, or on the brake), the computer shuts down the fuel pump and spark; if you have a car with a fuel computer, the mpg will read "999.9", or "---.-", depending on the make. It does this to squeeze out extra mpg.
That's contrary to my own observations. The mpl meter, or rather the l/100 km meter, goes to ---.- only when the car is standing still or moving very slowly after standing still. In gear and going downhill, it often goes down to decimals. On neutral downhill it does the same.
I pay attention to such things. My current car has a chronometer, a fuel efficiency meter (long term average and instant), a thermometer and speed average meter, aside from the regualr meters. I've experimented with my driving to increase fuel efficiency for a while. Lately I've been reseting the average speed meter every week. Last week I averaged 19 kmh, which is depressing. This week it stands at 20 kmh, which is still depressing. Hopefully this will end when they finish the tunnel around the corner, and the bridge near work <sigh>
The simple act of being in neutral doesn't affect car control in an auto, other than not being able to accelerate if you need to. If you turn your car off, then you'll lose your power brakes and power steering (brakes/steering still work, you just have to man up on them), but everything works as normal as long as the car's running (except accelerating ;))
This car/computer control thing is just personal preference. In both, I like my controls in a certain location, at a certain angle, etc. And in both, I can have someone have it a different way and get frustrated with it. Sometimes that person will explain how it's "better" and sometimes I can even see how it is better. But it doesn't matter, because I still don't like it. I think that applies here. If I install a printer on a PC, I know the dance. I'll just bang through connecting it and installing drivers and be done in 2 minutes. Give me a MAC and I'll be dumbfounded by the ease you guys spoke of, and an hour later still be trying to d/l drivers and stuff. Sometimes harder is easier.
Edit: Kind of like a dogleg manual transmission. On paper I can see how awesome the idea is. In practice, I'd probably depart from every red light in reverse and mash the guy behind me. Sometimes better is worse.
Quote: NareedThe breaks work perfectly well on neutral.
Yeah, they do ... Better than you want them to actually. They block the wheels, and may you skid all over the road. But if you feel it's a fair price to pay for a few drops of gasoline, it's up to you ... It's your life ... At least, you and I are not driving on the same roads ...
Quote: Nareed
I have looked. On a steep slope the car goes quickly into high gear and low revs. On a gentle slope it takes forever to switch gears.
You need your car serviced. If you drop the gas, the rpm should drop right away, slope or not.
Quote:When I put it in neutral the RPMs go down about 20-25%
This is bad too. They should drop all the way to idle.
#1. Facts Don't Change Our Minds
As I posted recently :)
Quote: weaselmanYeah, they do ... Better than you want them to actually. They block the wheels, and may you skid all over the road. But if you feel it's a fair price to pay for a few drops of gasoline, it's up to you ...
Hello? Anti-lock brakes?
Quote:It's your life ... At least, you and I are not driving on the same roads ...
I don't know. I like to travel :)
Quote: weaselmanYou need your car serviced. If you drop the gas, the rpm should drop right away, slope or not.
I told you I've looked. Release the gas and the revs go down. Then they begin to climb as the car picks up speed, until the transmission decides to switch to a higher gear. Every automatic I ever drove did this, too.
I had the car serviced at 6 months, as per the indications in the manual.
Quote:This is bad too. They should drop all the way to idle.
Are you being intentionally obtuse? The comaprison is between the car running without pressing the gas pedal vs putting it in neutral. If I floor it and then switch to neutral, the drop in RPM is more dramatic. But there is no call to do that?
Quote: NareedHello? Anti-lock brakes?
Don't put too much faith into them. They are better than nothing, but not a golden bullet either, and still require the driver to use reason and common sense.
They are also designed, intended and tested to be used in gear, and rely on the engine's pull to rotate the wheels in between the pumpings. If you are in neutral, they are of very little help.
Quote: NareedI told you I've looked. Release the gas and the revs go down.
You said that depended on how steep the slope is. It should not.
Quote:Then they begin to climb as the car picks up speed, until the transmission decides to switch to a higher gear. Every automatic I ever drove did this, too.
That should not happen either, unless you are going way too fast. If you feel the gear engage, just apply the break ever so slightly.
Quote:I had the car serviced at 6 months, as per the indications in the manual.
Ask the mechanic next time you go. Tell them, your idle rpm is too high.
Quote:Are you being intentionally obtuse? The comaprison is between the car running without pressing the gas pedal vs putting it in neutral. If I floor it and then switch to neutral, the drop in RPM is more dramatic. But there is no call to do that?
I am saying, it should drop to idle, not "25%" or whatever number you used. The final rpm should be about the the same - around 800-1200, depending on the type of engine you have, the percentage of the drop depends on how high it was before. If it always drops "25%", there is definitely something wrong with your transmission.
Quote: thecesspit#5. We're Not Programmed to Seek "Truth," We're Programmed to "Win"
#1. Facts Don't Change Our Minds
As I posted recently :)
Hehe, read that, twas funny. I tried to resist those habits even before you posted them. Now that I'm aware they're a "thing", I shall renew my efforts. Starting tomorrow ;)
I've done just about everything a car is capable of, including everything a car was never meant to do. On the "WTF" list, riding in neutral rates so low it hardly rates at all. Manual, power, ABS, it doesn't matter, brakes are a very straightforward system and aren't affected by any other, with the exception of losing power brakes when the engine is off. The "drive" factor of the wheels being in gear is a non-issue. Ever drive standard? When you stop at a red light from doing 55mph in 5th gear, you will be in neutral 5 times as you downshift, once for each gear shift and finally a coast to a full stop in neutral. There's millions of standard cars on our roads, I've yet to see one encounter an issue from braking while in neutral.
Quote: weaselmanYou said that depended on how steep the slope is. It should not.
Go back and read the thread if you care to. I won't address every missconception you may have had.
Quote:That should not happen either, unless you are going way too fast.
That's the point. There's a steep, short slope right before a steep upward slope before the final stretch home. When there's no traffic (rare these days), and the street ins't chewed up by heavy machinery (it's a lunar landscape right now). I let the gas go near the top, then coast down fast to 60 or 70 kmh, and still climb the other slope without feeding any gas at about 40 kmh.
And when that happens, the car accelerates, as intended, and shifts to higher gear.
Quote:I am saying, it should drop to idle, not "25%" or whatever number you used.
When I let go of the gas it goes down to idle. If I then out it in neutral, it goes down another 25% approximately. Got it now?
Quote: Nareed. I let the gas go near the top, then coast down fast to 60 or 70 kmh, and still climb the other slope without feeding any gas at about 40 kmh.
And when that happens, the car accelerates, as intended, and shifts to higher gear.
How much gas do you think you are saving by this per year?
Quote:
When I let go of the gas it goes down to idle. If I then out it in neutral, it goes down another 25% approximately. Got it now?
Yeah. Your idle is way too high. If it wasn't, it would stall if it went 25% below.
Quote: FaceEver drive standard? When you stop at a red light from doing 55mph in 5th gear, you will be in neutral 5 times as you downshift, once for each gear shift and finally a coast to a full stop in neutral. There's millions of standard cars on our roads, I've yet to see one encounter an issue from braking while in neutral.
Huh? Are you going to downshift every gear one by one from the fifth while breaking to stop at a red light?
I am sorry, I have to ask ... have you ever driven a manual transmission car?
