Informal Mac poll
Poll
 | 32 votes (56.14%) | ||
| | 3 votes (5.26%) | ||
| No votes (0%) | |||
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| | 4 votes (7.01%) | ||
| | 2 votes (3.5%) | ||
| No votes (0%) | |||
| | 6 votes (10.52%) | ||
| | 2 votes (3.5%) | ||
| | 5 votes (8.77%) |
57 members have voted
Linux users please do elaborate, if you care to.
Work: RedHat Linux, SunOS, Windows
Home: RedHat Linux, Mac OS X, Windows
I said PC/PC though to help. My next home PC may be a Linux boxen though... depends on how comfortable I end up feeling about it being dual boot.
I was going to say I assume most people run Linux on a PC ratehr than on a Mac, but I don't know enough about Linux or Mac to be certain of it.
You can run your own Linux on a Mac, if you want to dual boot it, but it's not common and (relatively) pointless (*)... most Linux based machines are what would have once been called "IBM compatible PCs", but the term is meaningless these days... the hardware to run Mac OS, Windows or Linux is much the same (except Apple keep a guard around running their OS on any other software)... a PC just means a personal computer, and really nowt to do with the operating system anymore.
(*) I can think of reasons why you would... but they are edge cases....
Quote: thecesspitYou can run your own Linux on a Mac, if you want to dual boot it, but it's not common and (relatively) pointless (*)... most Linux based machines are what would have once been called "IBM compatible PCs", but the term is meaningless these days... the hardware to run Mac OS, Windows or Linux is much the same (except Apple keep a guard around running their OS on any other software)... a PC just means a personal computer, and really nowt to do with the operating system anymore.
You see, when I first learned about computers, we were taught that PC meant Personal Computer. It was a category as distinct as Mainframe, Supercomputer, etc. In that sense, the old Apples, Ataris, Commodores, TRSs, Kaypros, Televideos, and so on were all PCs.
But then the term started being applied only to the IBM PC running on DOS and those made under license or whatever other agreement IBM had with them (at that DOS was a generic term for Disk Operating System, there was even an Apple DOS at the time; but I digress). So you either owned a PC or a Mac, and never the twain shall meet.
So how did we come full circle? was it Apple switching to Intel chips?
Of course I shouls have posted a better Linux option. I think the propper question should have been "what coputer do you use at home?" With choices given as PC, Mac, Linux, Other (hey, who knows what other OSes may be lurking out there...)
However, for all of Apple's famed intuitive design, for all the praise it gathers about making machines adapted for people, I saw no way to turn it on.
What gives?
I don't like Mac OS very much either (not quite to the point to prefer MS though), but nothing beats the hardware quality. What upsets me a lot about linux is the dendency it got lately to move closer and closer to Mac's look and feel, and its arrogant assumption that it knows better than you want you need to do and how you want to do it.
I also own a Mac Mini and Mac laptop, but don't use them much, they are more for my wife and daughter.
Quote: WizardI don't like calling them PCs either, and am open to better terms.
Call them windoze. That's what they really are :)
snobbish about it, like it makes them better
people or something. Both my daughter and
her husband have had Mac's for years and
they won't hesitate to tell you how behind the
times you are for using a PC. I hear the same
thing from another friend of mine. I don't
think Mac's are superior, if anything PC's are
better because they offer so many options.
Quote: waltomealPC at work (only because our tech services won't install or support Linux).
That can be fixed by inserting a Linux install CD.
Quote: kpThat can be fixed by inserting a Linux install CD.
You'll end being fixed by the insertion of a pink slip into your last pay cheque...
Quote: thecesspitYou'll end being fixed by the insertion of a pink slip into your last pay cheque...
I've wondered about that for the last ten years. Every three years when my PC is up for lease roll I tell the technicians to just put on the standard Windows image and there are no personal files to transfer. They seam happy to have an easy install.
For starters, the on switch is hidden on the back of the monitor. I mean hidden. I looked and dind't see it. worse, I felt around and didn't sense it. I did, actually, but it stuck such a little way out of the surface as to feel like a decal. I pressed it only because I could think of nothing else.
Ok, the comptuer started rather quickly. Nice. But apaprently it saved all the opened windows from the last session, about 12 of them. I tried to minimize them, which tok me a while because the controls were on the left side of the windows. Further, they are colored and not immediately obvious. I had to roll the mouse over each one to see what they did.
The mouse is, in one word, awful. It's heavy, not ergonomic, and when you press the button it feels like you're pressing the whole mouse down.
So, I had been asked to install a printer. I looked at a sort of tool bar on the bottom with a gazillion icons. After minimizing the dozen or so windows, I found a desktop bare of anything. So, back to the tool bar. nothing seemed helpful. So I clicked on something marked "launchpad." Wrong. it opened a window to lauch apps. Then I tried an icon labeled "mission control." Wrong again, but it displayed a printer icon labeled with the model of the printer sitting next to the comptuer.
I opened one of the shuttered windows and looked for a way to print. I can't recall what I did, but it took some doing. You guessed it: the page pritned just fine. So, the printer was already installed.
Ok, so just shut the thing down.
Well, after all I'd been through, I called the Mac's owner and asked. Who the hell puts the main controls on the top of the screen?
I would buy a Mac if it were the last computer on Earth, my life depended on it, and I was offered a very big discount.
Quote: NareedI had a chance to use a Mac recently. I found nothign easy or intuitive about it.
I would buy a Mac if it were the last computer on Earth, my life depended on it, and I was offered a very big discount.
There is definitely a learning curve. I think if you are a programmer type "computer" person you have the ability to customize more with windows based PC.... BUT for a non techy the Mac is very intuitive, very fast and very efficient. Windows is garbage IMO. I wouldn't buy another windows based machine if it was he last computer on earth, because it wouldnt be, it would be broken with a blue screen and tech support would be telling you to turn it off and back on in between Virus attacks.
AND, I took our old laptop and wiped it clean and installed Ubuntu on it, and gave it to Mrs Mosca, totally computer illiterate, who figured it out pretty quickly. Ubuntu, now desktop ready!
Quote: Scotty71There is definitely a learning curve. I think if you are a programmer type "computer" person you have the ability to customize more with windows based PC....
I'm not.
But I can use a Windows PC easy as you please.
Quote:BUT for a non techy the Mac is very intuitive, very fast and very efficient.
I won't say anything about speed or efficiency because I just don't know, but I found it as intuitive as a broken 3D puzzle underwater in the dark.
Quote: NareedI had a chance to use a Mac recently. I found nothign easy or intuitive about it.
I would buy a Mac if it were the last computer on Earth, my life depended on it, and I was offered a very big discount.
This is fascinating to me. I've used Macs and PCs for years and I completely see your point. Concerning the printer problem, we Mac users just pop in the install CD and double click, so it installs itself. You are obviously a PC user and approached the printer problem like a Windows user would, looking for the wizard or whatever. Interesting. I remember when Windows 95 came out, the whole point to the START button was to entice new users to the OS, giving them a starting point if they've never used a PC before. It was supposed to be intuitive, much like Apple wants to be, but obviously to someone who's never used a Mac, the printer was a problem.
Personally, as a Apple enthusiast, I hate all the PC cryptic messages that don't explain anything and try to scare me into....what? I don't know. (WARNING: You are about to bingle-bangle the dongle. Are you sure you want to do this?) If my car ran this way, I'd never buy another of that brand. WARNING: You are about to turn left. WARNING: You have reset the radio to another station. Are you sure you want to do this?
I think PC users are smug in that they're proud of being such computer dorks they understand this junk, which isn't intuitive to people just entering the computer world, but is to someone who grew up with DOS.
Apple users appreciate the beauty of the hardware, which just exudes quality in everything they make. Out of the box, everything Apple makes are fine pieces of elegance and thoughtful design compared to the plasticy cheap PC, which is made for the masses and was borne from the DOS geeks of years past. It's like the difference between Ferrari and Ford, but without the same price differences. Are you a Ferrari guy? Do you appreciate quality? Or are you looking for mass market commonplace stuff you can get parts for on every corner? It's not that Mac users are snobs. It's both the OS and the hardware. Are you Beretta or Bersa? McDonalds or sushi? Alpine or Kenwood? Rolex or Timex? I imagine Timex users do probably think Rolex guys are snobs. Sour grapes.
Like those controls on the left hand side of the bar for example. There is nothing "intuitive" whatsoever about them being on the right, you are just used to seeing them there, that's all. I have a mac laptop, and linux on my desktop and at work. Recently, I have upgraded my linux, and to my disgust discovered that they have moved the window controls to the left by default to look more like mac. I spent like half a day trying to move them back where they belong. I just could not do anything with the damn computer until the controls were positions right. I finally succeeded, and all is well. And only now, after reading your post, I realized that I was using these damn controls on the left forever on my Mac, and it never even occurred to me that anything was wrong with it, because I am so used to seeing them there.
Mac is different, especially from windoze. It is a very different (more efficient, elegant and enjoyable actually) way of getting things done. For a person, used to windoze, it will look counter-intuitive at first, but that is only because windoze itself is so counter-intuitive. if you ever spend a week using Mac, there will be no going back to windoze for you.
Quote: zippyboyIt's like the difference between Ferrari and Ford, but without the same price differences.
Are you kidding me? A decent MacBook Pro is over 2K. You can get a comparable lninux laptop for like $500. That is 400% price difference!
Quote: weaselmanAre you kidding me? A decent MacBook Pro is over 2K. You can get a comparable lninux laptop for like $500. That is 400% price difference!
I bought a new macbook pro for $1300 last year. And the difference between a cheap Ford and Ferrari is more than 400%. If you like nice things, and can afford it, why settle for crap?
Quote: zippyboyConcerning the printer problem, we Mac users just pop in the install CD and double click, so it installs itself. You are obviously a PC user and approached the printer problem like a Windows user would, looking for the wizard or whatever.
No. With Windows I pop in the CD, too, f I have one. This user didn't have one. For that you try to look for a driver bundled with the machine, or you download it from the web. That's what i was trying to do.
Quote:It was supposed to be intuitive, much like Apple wants to be, but obviously to someone who's never used a Mac, the printer was a problem.
Wants to be is right. it's not.
And to this day the only time I ever had any trouble installing a printer was on a Mac.
Quote:Apple users appreciate the beauty of the hardware, which just exudes quality in everything they make. Out of the box, everything Apple makes are fine pieces of elegance and thoughtful design compared to the plasticy cheap PC, which is made for the masses and was borne from the DOS geeks of years past.
I've often though Mac users are elitists. I see I'm right.
Quote:It's like the difference between Ferrari and Ford, but without the same price differences. Are you a Ferrari guy? Do you appreciate quality? Or are you looking for mass market commonplace stuff you can get parts for on every corner?
Someone's already addressed the price difference. But I wonder why you'd compare the clunker Mac to a Ford if you're trying to make it look good. Shouldn't it be the Ferrari with the high price and quality? :P
Quote: NareedI had a chance to use a Mac recently. I found nothign easy or intuitive about it.
For starters, the on switch is hidden on the back of the monitor. I mean hidden. I looked and dind't see it. worse, I felt around and didn't sense it. I did, actually, but it stuck such a little way out of the surface as to feel like a decal. I pressed it only because I could think of nothing else.
I guess that's an iMac, right? My gf right now has a 21" iMac and has all the same probs (if they're probs) you describe. The mouse is artsy-fartsy and heavy, yes. The on button is on the back and hidden, yes. But once you see these, are they problems? You think BMW drivers think their iDrive systems are problems after the first week? You think they'll sell their Bimmers for that?
Quote: weaselmanIt just takes some getting used to.
Like those controls on the left hand side of the bar for example. There is nothing "intuitive" whatsoever about them being on the right, you are just used to seeing them there, that's all. I have a mac laptop, and linux on my desktop and at work. Recently, I have upgraded my linux, and to my disgust discovered that they have moved the window controls to the left by default to look more like mac. I spent like half a day trying to move them back where they belong. I just could not do anything with the damn computer until the controls were positions right. I finally succeeded, and all is well. And only now, after reading your post, I realized that I was using these damn controls on the left forever on my Mac, and it never even occurred to me that anything was wrong with it, because I am so used to seeing them there.
Mac is different, especially from windoze. It is a very different (more efficient, elegant and enjoyable actually) way of getting things done. For a person, used to windoze, it will look counter-intuitive at first, but that is only because windoze itself is so counter-intuitive. if you ever spend a week using Mac, there will be no going back to windoze for you.
I took me a while to get used to the MAC because like you said it looks different and after 14 yrs of corporate use of windows it is a learning curve. However, you turn on the mac, it finds your wifi sets it up w/out confusing questions and it just works. The PC we have is so fucking confusing when it comes to networks etc and it takes forever to load up.
Yes, they are more expensive but they don't get loaded with a bunch of temporary best buy bullshit software. They tend to have everything you need and you can buy office, quicken etc. for them. I run windows on Parallels for some needed finance programs and that actually runs pretty sweet.
As far as cost goes, yes they are more but they aren't meant to be disposable like many of the 500 laptops that are out there. The New laptops that are all flash with no moving parts, that thing will never break most likely because I bet it wont overheat. Not my job to convince anyone but I can tell you I would never go back to a regular PC.
Our school district trains all the kids on Imacs, Ipads & Ipod touch. In 10-15 years those kids will be running IT departments and you will see Apple make bigger moves in the corporate IT world for sure!
Quote: NareedNo. With Windows I pop in the CD, too, f I have one. This user didn't have one. For that you try to look for a driver bundled with the machine, or you download it from the web. That's what i was trying to do.
Wants to be is right. it's not.
And to this day the only time I ever had any trouble installing a printer was on a Mac.
I've often though Mac users are elitists. I see I'm right.
It took me a while to figure out how to remove a printer but I never had to do anything other than hook up the USB and it did all the work. That was with an HP printer. I could imagine if you were trying to print to a big networked printer it could be a pain. Anyway, Nareed, you crack me up!
Quote: zippyboyI guess that's an iMac, right? My gf right now has a 21" iMac and has all the same probs (if they're probs) you describe. The mouse is artsy-fartsy and heavy, yes. The on button is on the back and hidden, yes. But once you see these, are they problems?
Problems? Did you ask whether there were any problems? Did you not read the whole post where I found it excruciating getting the junk out of the way, and then I couldn't even find a way in a so-called intuitive system to install a printer?
There was just one problem, really: the computer was a Mac.
Quote: NareedNo. With Windows I pop in the CD, too, f I have one. This user didn't have one. For that you try to look for a driver bundled with the machine, or you download it from the web.
Not on Mac. On Mac you just plug it in, and it works.
Quote:And to this day the only time I ever had any trouble installing a printer was on a Mac.
Right. Because it never occurred to you that you did not need to "install" anything.
Like I said, you are poisoned by windoze. You have to get used to the world where things "just work".
The problem isn't the machine. That's okay by me. I'll stick to my Windoze machine too.
Quote: Scotty71Yes, they are more expensive but they don't get loaded with a bunch of temporary best buy bullshit software. They tend to have everything you need and you can buy office, quicken etc. for them. I run windows on Parallels for some needed finance programs and that actually runs pretty sweet.
So do custom built PCs, and so do all the PCs I ever owned. yes, it was a pain to remove the excess sometimes, but the computers work, they're easy to turn on, have ergonomic mice with five buttons with customizable functions, and so on.
Quote: weaselmanNot on Mac. On Mac you just plug it in, and it works.
Except the Mac geek who set up the computer couldn't get the printer to work.
Quote:Right. Because it never occurred to you that you did not need to "install" anything.
Because the user didn't know her daughter had installed the printer later. If she had told me, I'd have never gone near the blasted thing.
Quote:Like I said, you are poisoned by windoze. You have to get used to the world where things "just work".
Get your fact straight before you make such statements.
Quote:
Get your fact straight before you make such statements.
What "fact"? You said you tried to "install" the printer, could not find a way (there isn't ), and found out that it was already working.
I have owned a mac for years, and never, not once I had to "install" any hardware driver on it. You plug it in, and it works. That's the mac way. If it does not work, it's defective (the piece of hardware you are trying to "install" that is).
Quote: weaselmanWhat "fact"? You said you tried to "install" the printer, could not find a way (there isn't ), and found out that it was already working.
Ok, here's the progression:
1) Someone I know gets a Mac and has it set up.
2) She tells me the printer doesn't work and that the guy who set up the Mac can't get it to work
3) After a few days she asks me to install the printer
4) I get to the Mac, have trouble finding the hidden on switch, have trouble getting rid of windows of junk, find a confusing tool bar, and accidentally see the printer may be installed.
5) After some more fumbling with this "intuitive" machine, I manage to test the printer, which does work.
Now, how does that mean I am poisoned by windows, or in any way am a dolt, for not knowing how a machine I've never used is supposed to work?
Quote: NareedOk, here's the progression:
2) She tells me the printer doesn't work and that the guy who set up the Mac can't get it to work
3) After a few days she asks me to install the printer
5) After some more fumbling with this "intuitive" machine, I manage to test the printer, which does work.
I think you should disassociate yourself from people this daft.
Quote: Nareed
Now, how does that mean I am poisoned by windows, or in any way am a dolt, for not knowing how a machine I've never used is supposed to work?
You are not a dolt. You are just used to getting things done a certain way, that's what I meant by being poisoned by windoze. When you are told that something does not work, you are thinking something like " install driver? reinstall driver? reboot? antivirus? reinstall windows? download patch? edit registry? check IRQs? flash BIOS? hardware conflict?". When a Mac user hears that a piece of hardware is not working, the chain of thoughts is usually much shorter: "is it plugged in? is the cable defective? I am returning this printer!".
Not because Mac users are on average more stupid, but simply because they have been taught by their life experience that software usually works, and does exactly what they want, while windoze user's experience is exactly the opposite. Thus two different approaches to the same problem.
You see, that's exactly the point - you don't need to be a geek, or to call your daughter or your friend to take care of your computer when you have a mac, you just ... mmmm ... find the power switch, turn it on, and it works.
As an illustration, here is one of the problems, that Apple support helps their users with. It is pretty characteristic.
Quote: weaselmanRecently, I have upgraded my linux, and to my disgust discovered that they have moved the window controls to the left by default to look more like mac. I spent like half a day trying to move them back where they belong. I just could not do anything with the damn computer until the controls were positions right. I finally succeeded, and all is well. And only now, after reading your post, I realized that I was using these damn controls on the left forever on my Mac, and it never even occurred to me that anything was wrong with it, because I am so used to seeing them there.
LOL, yeah that ticked me off, too.
Quote: Nareed
Now, how does that mean I am poisoned by windows, or in any way am a dolt, for not knowing how a machine I've never used is supposed to work?
Someone called you to help tighten a screw, and you showed up with a flat blade driver for Phillips screws. And now all Phillips screws suck. You weren't a dolt for showing up with the wrong tool, but the rest of your argument is suspect.
I never heard of "PEBKAC".Quote: thecesspitI think Nareed is a describing a classic PEBKAC error in Mac.
I looked it up, and can confirm the diagnosis.
---
Regarding the printer issue, just this morning, my boss came to me because he knows I use Mac at home.
His wife is a teacher, and the school gave her a MacBook. She said it's different, that she's getting used to it, and is starting to like it.
But the most amazing thing is, when she tried to hook up their home printer that they had for a couple years.
They were all stumped because they couldn't find the original CD or instructions that came with the printer.
Eventually, someone decided to just plug it in and see what happens.
What happened is, the printer appeared as a choice in the printer dialog box. She selected it, and the damn printer worked! Nothing to set up or install.
---
What I like most about my Mac is that although costlier, it works. I've rarely had problems with the Macs I've owned. I have nothing but problems with the PC I use at work.
And the Macs tend to last longer.
The only reason I recently replaced my MacBook is because I dropped it. It still works, but the X key tends to type randomly, and that's a PITA. So after 6 years, I replaced it.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
Regarding the printer issue, just this morning, my boss came to me because he knows I use Mac at home.
His wife is a teacher, and the school gave her a MacBook. She said it's different, that she's getting used to it, and is starting to like it.
But the most amazing thing is, when she tried to hook up their home printer that they had for a couple years.
They were all stumped because they couldn't find the original CD or instructions that came with the printer.
Eventually, someone decided to just plug it in and see what happens.
What happened is, the printer appeared as a choice in the printer dialog box. She selected it, and the damn printer worked! Nothing to set up or install.
This was my experience with my Canon Pixma 980. And when I connected a new scanner, I could use it with the Mac's native TWAIN driver, although it did have more features after I installed the proper interface.
However, I have had very few problems with my PCs that I could blame on the operating system. Most of my problems were related to buying cheap hardware to run Windows on. Whenever I've spent more money for quality hardware, the machines have been just as reliable as the Macs. IMO both are valid solutions.
Quote: NareedNow, how does that mean I am poisoned by windows, or in any way am a dolt, for not knowing how a machine I've never used is supposed to work?
If you don't know how a machine you've never used is supposed to work, then you're not a dolt, the machine is.
Quote: kpIf you don't know how a machine you've never used is supposed to work, then you're not a dolt, the machine is.
I suppose, that makes Boeing a dolt, because I don't know how to use it?
Quote: weaselmanWhen you are told that something does not work, you are thinking something like " install driver? reinstall driver? reboot? antivirus? reinstall windows? download patch? edit registry? check IRQs? flash BIOS? hardware conflict?".
Actually the first thing I always check when a peripheral is not working is whether it's connected to the PC and a power outlet. 99% of the time the problem is a lose cable. Next I check whether it's on. That's 0.9% of all problems.
Quote:You see, that's exactly the point - you don't need to be a geek, or to call your daughter or your friend to take care of your computer when you have a mac, you just ... mmmm ... find the power switch, turn it on, and it works.
Why is the power switch hidden away, then?
Quote: MoscaSomeone called you to help tighten a screw, and you showed up with a flat blade driver for Phillips screws. And now all Phillips screws suck. You weren't a dolt for showing up with the wrong tool, but the rest of your argument is suspect.
What argument? I made some observations on why I found the Mac neither easy nor intuitive. I didn't make an argument.
Quote: Nareed
Actually the first thing I always check when a peripheral is not working is whether it's connected to the PC and a power outlet. 99% of the time the problem is a lose cable. Next I check whether it's on. That's 0.9% of all problems.
My experience with a PC is exactly the opposite. You must be really bad with cables ... and power switches ... :)
I suppose, you are not alone, why else would support people on the phone always ask if your appliance is plugged in when you call to get help with a problem?
Quote: Nareed
Why is the power switch hidden away, then?
For aesthetic reasons. You only need to find it once, or ask the sales person to show it to you. It's not a big deal that it is hidden once you know where it is, but it does look ugly when it is not hidden.
Quote: weaselmanFor aesthetic reasons. You only need to find it once, or ask the sales person to show it to you. It's not a big deal that it is hidden once you know where it is, but it does look ugly when it is not hidden.
You know what's uglier? A machine that can't be turned on because the switch is hidden.
Besides, even though I knew it was somewhere on the back of the monitor ont he left, I couldn't see it when I looked. And when I felt for it, it was so nearly flush to the surface as to appear to be something else.
So what's intuitive about having to ask the salesman or read the manual, just to be able to turn the Mac on
