Capital of the Netherlands

Here is another friendly bet dispute. I won't say who had what side. This bet was made a few years ago between me and a friend of a friend. The bet was what is the capital of the Netherlands. For those not up to speed on that topic, here is the Wikipedia page on it.

Needless to say a huge argument erupted over how to score the bet. If you were asked to make a ruling, what would it be?

If your bet was "what is the capital of the Netherlands," and one of you said the Hague and one Amsterdam, well, then you both are correct. Without further specification, it is impossible to resolve the bet.

If you really want to mess things up, bet him what the capital of South Africa is :) Or better yet, Israel.

These are the kind of arguments that go on for pages on wikipedia.

Edit: Another example is Bolivia. The constitutional capital is Sucre, but I have never heard anyone refer to the capital as anything other than La Paz.

My vote went to the wrong box. Amsterdam is the right answer. I'd have gone for the Hague, but would have been wrong as clearly it's not the Capital, just the seat of government.

I voted Amsterdam(420 and Hookers, nice). I Googled it to substantiate your wiki link and most of what I find is that Amsterdam is the answer, even though it appears government business is conducted in Hague. Weird!

Quote: teddys

If you really want to mess things up, bet him what the capital of South Africa is :) Or better yet, Israel.

The capital of Israel is Jerusalem. There's no question about it as far as Israel is concerned. The parliament (Knesset) meets there, the Prime Minsiter and President (figurehead) live there, the ministires are there, etc etc. Some countries have placed their embassies elsewhere, mostly in Tel Aviv, but that's immaterial. I've been there. Let me tell you, if they had no ruins worth visiting, the town wouldn't receive a single tourist ever.

Anyway, as to the Wizard's problem, I answered reflexively The Hague is the capital, but only because I thought it was. I don't see what makes Amsterdam the capital if the seat of government is elsewhere, as capital is understood as where the seat of government of a particular political unit sits.

So under a broad definition of capital, I'd call it a push.

I also voted Amsterdam based on my natural (albeit limited) knowledge, and in reading the Wiki article, I can't find anything to refute my answer. Except for a brief period in the 1800's of uncertainty, everything else states simply "Amsterdam is the capitol".

Seems it's not unlike Vegas. A gambler may say "I'm going to Vegas", only to find that once he gets there, he has to drive somewhere else to gamble. So would a politician "go to the capitol" only to find his office is located somewhere else. Vegas is where it is regardless of where the casino's lie, just as Amsterdam is the capitol regardless of where the center of government is.

The "CIA World Factbook" clearly indicates Amsterdam is the "Capital". Have they ever been wrong before?

Quote: teddys

If your bet was "what is the capital of the Netherlands,"

Yes, that is all that was said.

Quote: Face

I also voted Amsterdam based on my natural (albeit limited) knowledge, and in reading the Wiki article, I can't find anything to refute my answer. Except for a brief period in the 1800's of uncertainty, everything else states simply "Amsterdam is the capitol".

Seems it's not unlike Vegas. A gambler may say "I'm going to Vegas", only to find that once he gets there, he has to drive somewhere else to gamble. So would a politician "go to the capitol" only to find his office is located somewhere else. Vegas is where it is regardless of where the casino's lie, just as Amsterdam is the capitol regardless of where the center of government is.

Your answer confuses me. I like the Vegas comparison. Suppose there was a bet on what city The Mirage is in? I think most people would say Las Vegas. However, it is actually in an unincorporated part of Clark County seldom referred to as Paradise. If you were on the Strip you would not reach the city limits of Las Vegas until you were north of Sahara Blvd.. You seem to be arguing that "Las Vegas" would still be an acceptable answer to where The Mirage is, because that is where all the big casinos are everybody associates with Las Vegas.

By that logic, in the Hague you would see all the buildings and people associated with the seat of government. Couldn't you logically assume then that you were in the capital of the Netherlands? So, to conclude, I like the Vegas comparison, but I think it argues that The Hague should be the answer to the Netherlands question.

I could be wrong, but aren't things like State and Country Capitals determined by a voted on resolution by the appropriate governing body at some point in the Countries or States existance? Usually when it is first formed. Heck every county and little municipality(of which I work for) has resolutions delinating exact bouderies and what they are"officially" called, and some, like ours, go back to the 1800's.

Quote: Wizard

By that logic, in the Hague you would see all the buildings and people associated with the seat of government. Couldn't you logically assume then that you were in the capital of the Netherlands? So, to conclude, I like the Vegas comparison, but I think it argues that The Hague should be the answer to the Netherlands question.

I say it depends on the definition of capital. As far as I know, a capital is the city where the government of a political unit is located. Therefore Washington DC is the capital of the US, Carson City is the capital of Nevada. By that definition, I fail to see how any city that does not hold the seat of government can be a capital.

I suppose in a monarchy the capital may be where the royal palace is, or where the monarch's official residence is located, since the monarch is the nominal head of state. I don't know ehther or not I'd accept that.

Quote: Wizard

Your answer confuses me. I like the Vegas comparison. Suppose there was a bet on what city The Mirage is in? I think most people would say Las Vegas. However, it is actually in an unincorporated part of Clark County seldom referred to as Paradise. If you were on the Strip you would not reach the city limits of Las Vegas until you were north of Sahara Blvd. You seem to be arguing that "Las Vegas" would still be an acceptable answer to where The Mirage is, because that is where all the big casinos are everybody associates with Las Vegas.

Mike, one can argue by U.S. Postal Service addressing conventions, the unincorprorated town of Paradise is declared as "Las Vegas" Proper. THEIR Zip code computer fills in LAS VEGAS for Paradise and Paradise Valley Zip Codes (East Paradise, etc.) There is also Whitney (Far East Tropicana), and Winchester (a few Square blocks by the golf course on Desert Inn, aka, "D.I.")
In New York [City, now...], real estate agents create conventions for re-naming NY Neighborhoods: Blomingdale is now Morningside Heights, parts of the Bowery is now Soho, No-Lo, and DUMBO ("Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass.") I'm personally waiting for a neighborhood to be re-named "High-Low-Yo." ("Yes - I live in High-Low-Yo. Finding a reasonably priced condo is a real crap shoot here...") I heard a proposal to call a fancy Section of Washington Heights, further up on the hill, "Washington Heights Heights." (Google "Cabrini Blvd,"in New York in Washington Heights.) Gaa..
I saw an episode of "Law & Order" where the judge restricted an immigrant criminal resident to stay within "New York County," which consists only of the Borough of Manhattan - in order to set in up and bust him in Brooklyn, within New York City, but not in County or "Borough" terms, as Brooklyn is "King's County" or "The Borough of Brooklyn of New York City. It gets that nutty. Call it Prop Bet Paradise County.

What where the params going in, or are they revealed after the fact?....

Quote: Wizard

Your answer confuses me. I like the Vegas comparison. Suppose there was a bet on what city The Mirage is in? I think most people would say Las Vegas. However, it is actually in an unincorporated part of Clark County seldom referred to as Paradise. If you were on the Strip you would not reach the city limits of Las Vegas until you were north of Sahara Blvd.. You seem to be arguing that "Las Vegas" would still be an acceptable answer to where The Mirage is, because that is where all the big casinos are everybody associates with Las Vegas.

By that logic, in the Hague you would see all the buildings and people associated with the seat of government. Couldn't you logically assume then that you were in the capital of the Netherlands? So, to conclude, I like the Vegas comparison, but I think it argues that The Hague should be the answer to the Netherlands question.

Your confusion is likely my fault. I don't know specifically where the city of Las Vegas ends, nor which casino's are located in relation to the border. I only have a vague understanding that a lot (?) of what people consider Vegas is technically located in neighboring towns. The forum, the locals, and frequent visitors probably know, but for the great majority of people who know OF Vegas, they would likely think that "Vegas" is where the casinos are, from up to the Strat all the way down to The M. To be honest, if not for this forum, it's penchant for trivia, and it's fact-driven participants, I wouldn't have known about the Vegas issue at all. When I stayed at The M, I thought I was in Vegas and told everyone I was in Vegas, not realizing that technically, I wasn't even really close.

So my Vegas comparison wasn't totally apples to apples, it was just something close I could use as an example. When at The M, "I was in Vegas" (technically untrue). When the Chancellor (or whatever) of Amsterdam is questioned as to where he works, he answers "the capital" (also technically untrue, as his office would be in The Hague). Both are close enough for everyday conversation, but if asking for a Wiz-quality answer (100% acurate and technically true) Vegas is exactly where it is and only where it is, and the capital of the Netherlands is Amsterdam. Saying The Hague is the capitol or The Mirage is in Vegas is an accepted false answer, no one's going to bust your chops over it. But in a game or contest of absolute truth, both answers are inarguably wrong.

Hope my attempt to clarify my position didn't muddy it even more ;)

Quote: Face

..., but if asking for a Wiz-quality answer (100% acurate and technically true) Vegas is exactly where it is and only where it is, and the capital of the Netherlands is Amsterdam.

Sometimes a 100% accurate and true answer is not what you're looking for. On Jeopardy I think if they showed a picture of the Strip and asked for the city "Las Vegas" would be an accepted answer. For most purposes, including general public perception, it is. Strict municipal boundaries do not necessarily define the essence of a city.

Likewise, I think once could argue that Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands in name only, but for all practical purposes it is in the Hague. That fact, I think, lends support that the Hague not be considered an incorrect answer.

If the Dutch call Amsterdam their capital city, I'll go along with them, whatever we as non-Dutch may think it should be...

Quote: Wizard

Sometimes a 100% accurate and true answer is not what you're looking for. On Jeopardy I think if they showed a picture of the Strip and asked for the city "Las Vegas" would be an accepted answer. For most purposes, including general public perception, it is. Strict municipal boundaries do not necessarily define the essence of a city.

Likewise, I think once could argue that Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands in name only, but for all practical purposes it is in the Hague. That fact, I think, lends support that the Hague not be considered an incorrect answer.

Interesting. I agree with your entire first paragraph. I guess it comes down to, again, the nature of your bet (Maybe you should stop this little habit? ;) j/k of course). Jeopardy would probably accept the answer, and I'd not think twice. The public perception is exactly that, an accepted perception. And your munincipal boundaries comment is spot on. But, if we're talking specifics, none of your first paragraph matters, IMO. The city of LV's boundaries are clearly defined, that's simply where it is. Perception, essence, acceptance, don't mean a thing.

As for the second paragraph, you absolutely could argue, and might even win, depending on a number of variables. However, I believe that speaking strictly in tems of fact, the answer of The Hague is wrong (as far as I can tell). Amsterdam is the capital, says so in all that I read. So what makes a city a capital? Are there any requirements? How might you argue that The Hague is the right answer, and if you would argue that, would you also argue that The Mirage, The M, etc, are in Las Vegas? Or could you argue one while upholding the other? I've stated my beliefs on the subject and obviously believe they're correct. But I remain open minded...think you could change my mind?

Quote: Face

So what makes a city a capital? Are there any requirements? How might you argue that The Hague is the right answer, and if you would argue that, would you also argue that The Mirage, The M, etc, are in Las Vegas?

The seat of government of the Netherlands is in the Hague. A country can say its capital is wherever it wants, but if all the highest government buildings are in one place than at least that is where the functional capital is. Amsterdam is the capital in name only. It would be like the US Constitution saying the US capital was in New York City. To me, a true capital is where the highest levels of government convene.

Maybe the Vegas comparison was a bad one. I guess I'm trying to advocate truth in words. Sometimes words should be changed to reflect reality, such as the capital of the Netherlands should be The Hague. However, we shouldn't get hung up on technicalities. I think it is fine to say, for informal purposes, that The Mirage is in Las Vegas. Much like it is fine to identify the Jets as the New York Jets, even though they play in New Jersey. Same goes for the Giants.

I hope that wasn't too confusing.

The Jets play in Winnipeg :)

I have seen maps that acknowledge both cities as capitals, and I have seen maps that show Amsterdam as the only capital. I have never seen a map that showed The Hague as a capital and not Amsterdam.

That may be a weak argument. It is similar to arguing who is more important, The Prime Minister of the UK, or the Queen. The Queen can't make laws, hire or fire people. But she technically can dismiss parliament and call for elections, although by custom she normally waits until requested by the prime minister. But parliament ultimately can say who the monarch is or determine the Act of Succession (even though they haven't changed the law since 1701).

As for Las Vegas, the Post office has long recognized that place names should not be restricted by municipal boundaries. Habit and custom usually extends the place name over a bigger area than the municipal boundary.

In the East, some neighborhoods maintain separate names long after they cease to exist as an administrative body. Manayunk was a place in Philadelphia county that adopted their name in 1824 based on an old Indian name. In 1840 , Manayunk was incorporated as a borough, but in 1854 the county of Philadelphia and the city of Philadelphia were merged and Manayunk become a neighborhood. But people still put Manayunk on their postal addresses.

Quote: pacomartin

In the East, some neighborhoods maintain separate names long after they cease to exist as an administrative body. Manayunk was a place in Philadelphia county that adopted their name in 1824 based on an old Indian name. In 1840 , Manayunk was incorporated as a borough, but in 1854 the county of Philadelphia and the city of Philadelphia were merged and Manayunk become a neighborhood. But people still put Manayunk on their postal addresses.

When I lived in the Baltimore area through the 90s I was always confused as to what to say when asked where specifically in Baltimore I lived. As with many cities, Baltimore has lots of small surrounding cities like Woodlawn, Catonsville, Pikesville, Townson, etc.. In my case I lived on Riding Crop Way, which was in a seemingly nameless area between Ellicot City, Randalstown, Woodlawn, and Catonsville. So I never really knew what to call it. If asked where I lived by a local I would say Catonsville or "near Catonsville." Those preprinted address labels charities sometimes send you, while asking for a donation, would indicate my city as Gwynn Oak, but nobody ever referred to Gwynn Oak as a city or municipality. There was a Gwynn Oak Avenue, which was the only context I heard Gwynn Oak come up. It just goes to show that, indeed, place names can get confusing back east. I bothered lots of people back there with this issue. To those who insisted I did live in Gwynn Oak I asked to see a map with the specific boundaries, and nobody could produce one.

Quote: Wizard

When I lived in the Baltimore area through the 90s I was always confused as to what to say when asked where specifically in Baltimore I lived.

I tell people I live in Mexico City. This is true, even though I haven't lived within the city limits of Mex City since 1970 :) My current place is about 7 miles away from said limits, my previous house was about a half mile away. This doesn't matter in the least, as places as far away as 30 miles from the city limits are considered to be Mexico City.

In theory Mex City is made up of the Federal District only, known as Mexico, Distrito Federal. There's no place in the map officially known as Mexico City, BTW. In practice, the city, or metro area, includes several municipalities located in Mexico state, whether they border the District proper or not. Previously I lived in Naucalpan, which borders the district, now I live in Huixquilucan, which doesn't.

My rule of thumb is simple: if the area code matches that of Mexico City, you are in Mexico City.

without doing ay reading on the subject......Logically the answer is Hague....That is where the goverment is seated, so logically that would be the capital. But then after reading a bit on the subject, I see Amsterdam is the declared capital of the country. Whether its right or wrong I voted for Hague.....where the government is located is where your capital is in my book......It seems odd to have your largest city also be you capital.......It has been common practice for hundreds of years that your major city not be your capital.....For military reasons......Forcing an invader to concur two cities instead of one. If you capital city is also your major population center the invading army can kill two birds with one stone......This theory worked out good for the US in the war of 1812.

Quote: Nareed

There's no place in the map officially known as Mexico City, BTW.

Is there a specific spot in Mexico City, perhaps with a monument or something, where the eagle was fighting with the snake, as foretold by the Virgin Guadalupe? Do I have the story right?

Quote: vert1276

It has been common practice for hundreds of years that your major city not be your capital.....For military reasons......Forcing an invader to concur two cities instead of one. If you capital city is also your major population center the invading army can kill two birds with one stone......This theory worked out good for the US in the war of 1812.

I took two military history classes in college and never knew that. ¡Que interesante! Speaking of Mexico City, they would be an exception to that rule. Two known followers are Canada and Australia, with capitals you almost never even hear of.

Quote: Wizard

Is there a specific spot in Mexico City, perhaps with a monument or something, where the eagle was fighting with the snake, as foretold by the Virgin Guadalupe? Do I have the story right?

I've a vague memory of that, but to be perfectly honest I've no idea one way or another. I know the most important monuments, though, and I don't recall one like that. In school we learn mostly of the history from independence onwards, with very little about the 300 years Spain ruled here.

Tough luck finding an atheist Mexican with a Jewish upbringing :) I'm certain a catholic would know all the myths surrounding the Virgin. All I know is Miguel Hidalgo used her image in his standard when making the call to arms an eventually for independence.

Quote:

Speaking of Mexico City, they would be an exception to that rule.

I thought in most countries the biggest city is usually the capital, too: London, Paris, Madrid, Berlin, Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, etc. The exception would have been West Germany, since Bonn was a small city. In Latin America the exception is Brazil, as they moved the capital from Rio de Janeiro to Brasilia.

Quote: Wizard

Two known followers are Canada and Australia, with capitals you almost never even hear of.

And New Zealand - although you'd be lucky to even hear of our country, let alone our capital Wellington! But our Prime Minister did meet with President Obama for half an hour last week, that was big news here.

Jeesh...I read the question and immediately thought: Brussels.

How's this for advantage play...make your geography bets with BA

Quote: Wizard

Two known followers are Canada and Australia, with capitals you almost never even hear of.

Hey, we don't even know the words to our national anthem so give us a break. :)

Canberra was chosen as the site for the capital to settle/stop an argument between the two major cities at the time of Federation (1901), Sydney and Melbourne. It is, conveniently, located between both but closer to Sydney than to Melbourne. It was designed by one of your very own, a Chicago architect named Walter Burley Griffin. Lake Burley Griffin (man-made) is named after him, and probably his wife, as they both contributed to the winning design.

I voted Amsterdam. Simple reason; it is not for us nor our reasoning to decide it. They have decided it by placing the specific wording in their constitution. It's right there and that's all there is to it, regardless of how wise, or unwise, such a decision may be. It just is.

Quote: Wizard

When I lived in the Baltimore area through the 90s I was always confused as to what to say when asked where specifically in Baltimore I lived. As with many cities, Baltimore has lots of small surrounding cities like Woodlawn, Catonsville, Pikesville, Townson, etc.. In my case I lived on Riding Crop Way, which was in a seemingly nameless area between Ellicot City, Randalstown, Woodlawn, and Catonsville. So I never really knew what to call it. If asked where I lived by a local I would say Catonsville or "near Catonsville." Those preprinted address labels charities sometimes send you, while asking for a donation, would indicate my city as Gwynn Oak, but nobody ever referred to Gwynn Oak as a city or municipality. There was a Gwynn Oak Avenue, which was the only context I heard Gwynn Oak come up. It just goes to show that, indeed, place names can get confusing back east. I bothered lots of people back there with this issue. To those who insisted I did live in Gwynn Oak I asked to see a map with the specific boundaries, and nobody could produce one.

There are no incorporated cities in Baltimore County. There are only census-designated places and post office designations, which have no force of any jurisdiction, and are just matters of convenience. So you basically live where the census or the post office tells you you do. It's all extremely confusing. I hate the DMV local government system.

The SSA is the second-largest employer in Baltimore County, after the school system. I think most people would say you lived in Woodlawn due to your proximity to SSA Central Office.

Quote: teddys

There are no incorporated cities in Baltimore County. There are only census-designated places and post office designations, which have no force of any jurisdiction, and are just matters of convenience. So you basically live where the census or the post office tells you you do. It's all extremely confusing. I hate the DMV local government system.

The SSA is the second-largest employer in Baltimore County, after the school system. I think most people would say you lived in Woodlawn due to your proximity to SSA headquarters.

Here is a Post office app, where you put in a zip code and it tells you the city. So I put in my Maryland zip code, 21244, and it said Windsor Mill. That was indeed another possibility I forgot about. Much like Gynn Oak, nobody ever said they lived in Windsor Mill, because nobody knew exactly where it was, or if it really was a place.

I you put in put in the zip code of the Mirage, 89109, you do get Las Vegas.

Just for fun, I put in all the repeating digits. Here is what I got:

00000: error
11111: error
22222: ARLINGTON, VA. While it's not correct, some mailers mistakenly use this ZIP Code for MARINE CORPS INSTITUTE, VA
33333: error
44444: NEWTON FALLS, OH. While it's not correct, some mailers mistakenly use this ZIP Code for BRACEVILLE, OH
55555: YOUNG AMERICA, MN. While it's not correct, some mailers mistakenly use this ZIP Code for NORWOOD YOUNG AMERICA, MN
66666: error
77777: error
88888: error
99999: error

Regarding Woodlawn, yeah, that was option, but I was "outside the beltway," while the SSA HQ was "inside the beltway." There was a different vibe inside and outside the beltway. Saying I lived in Woodlawn would make some sense geographically, but not sociologically.

Quote: Wizard

Here is a Post office app, where you put in a zip code and it tells you the city. So I put in my Maryland zip code, 21244, and it said Windsor Mill. That was indeed another possibility I forgot about. Much like Gynn Oak, nobody ever said they lived in Windsor Mill, because nobody knew exactly where it was, or if it really was a place.

I you put in put in the zip code of the Mirage, 89109, you do get Las Vegas.

Just for fun, I put in all the repeating digits. Here is what I got:

00000: error
11111: error
22222: ARLINGTON, VA. While it's not correct, some mailers mistakenly use this ZIP Code for MARINE CORPS INSTITUTE, VA
33333: error
44444: NEWTON FALLS, OH. While it's not correct, some mailers mistakenly use this ZIP Code for BRACEVILLE, OH
55555: YOUNG AMERICA, MN. While it's not correct, some mailers mistakenly use this ZIP Code for NORWOOD YOUNG AMERICA, MN
66666: error
77777: error
88888: error
99999: error

Regarding Woodlawn, yeah, that was option, but I was "outside the beltway," while the SSA HQ was "inside the beltway." There was a different vibe inside and outside the beltway. Saying I lived in Woodlawn would make some sense geographically, but not sociologically.

People like to say they are from where their mailing address is, but that doesn't have to be a city or anything. Nowadays I don't think it even has to be a post office. If you really want to know where you live, I ask who you make your property tax check out to...At least in the Northeast, there are very few unincorporated areas. (I know NJ, MA, NH, have none). If you are paying to the county, then you live in Unincorporated ___________ (name of county)"

Amsterdam is the capital, as it is specified in the constitution of the sovereign nation. However, it would not be the capital but for this explicit statement, as unless otherwise defined it is, "the most important city or town of a country or region, usually its seat of government and administrative center."