British English vs American English

Sometimes I read things about British English (often in a historical context like WWII) and I wonder if they are still true? I know there are British contributors to this blog.

For example, I read that British read the first sentence, like the Americans read the second sentence. An American reads the second sentence that "he" is required to go to school by "them".

(1) “They insisted he went to school every day”
(2) “They insisted he go to school every day”

I think most Americans when they read the first sentence assume that someone has accused "him" of skipping school, and "they" are saying that "he" really did attend.

Is that really true? Does the second sentence sound just as natural as the first?

.....

I read (1) and (2) differently, because the tense of the verb is different. I would take (1) to be something said in defense of an accusation of skipping school.

Quote: Wizard

I read (1) and (2) differently, because the tense of the verb is different. I would take (1) to be something said in defense of an accusation of skipping school.

I understand that British read sentence (1) as a requirement to attend school.

.....

Quote: pacomartin

I understand that British read sentence (1) as a requirement to attend school.

The Brits speak our language funny :P

Quote: pacomartin

I understand that British read sentence (1) as a requirement to attend school.

For sure, I read it as such. :)

In would write the other intepretation as :

"They insisted he had been to school every day."

From my meetings I learned that the phrase "table the discussion" means the exact opposite in Britain as the United States.

Quote: pacomartin

From my meetings I learned that the phrase "table the discussion" means the exact opposite in Britain as the United States.

What does it mean in the US? Tabling a motion means to put it on the table for discussion and consideration...

Quote: thecesspit

What does it mean in the US?

In American English it means to put it off for discussion at a later point. It is one of those fairly rare expressions that are not only differently interpreted, but with exact opposite meanings.

I am no British, but I think, the second sentence is simply grammatically incorrect, because it violates the sequence of tenses.
And I do read the first sentence the way you suggested a Brit would.

The second sentence would have been re-edited by me if it was in tech spec, for sure.

Not that I deal with technical specification about children's attendance at school. But you get the idea.

Quote: weaselman

I am no British, but I think, the second sentence is simply grammatically incorrect, because it violates the sequence of tenses.
And I do read the first sentence the way you suggested a Brit would.

I am not much of a grammarian myself, but I think that in the American English usage, there actually is not an error of tenses in the second sentence -- I believe that the "go" may be subjunctive mode. Interpret it this way: "They insisted he (must) go to school every day." It is subjunctive, because in reality he may or may not go to school every day. This use of the subjunctive in cases of uncertainty is very common in Latin, but in (American) English we typically only use it when there is obvious falsehood, not just uncertainty: "If I were you, I would choose the blue suit." The "were" is subjunctive (and is used since I am definitely not really you), not an error in singular/plural.

Where is mkl654321 when you need a professional English teacher?

Quote: weaselman

I am no British, but I think, the second sentence is simply grammatically incorrect, because it violates the sequence of tenses.
And I do read the first sentence the way you suggested a Brit would.

Quote: thecesspit

The second sentence would have been re-edited by me if it was in tech spec, for sure.
Not that I deal with technical specification about children's attendance at school. But you get the idea.

The argument about "sequence of tenses" is that insisted is past tense, while go is present tense. But actually go is being used in the subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood in this case expresses "intent" rather than present action. The subjunctive mood is very similar to the " imperative " mood. A similar sentence in imperative mood would be "They shouted, go to school".

In British English you tend to use clear words to mark the subjunctive mood.
"I watched closely, lest he make a mistake." You are not mixing past (watched) and present (make) tenses, but you are using "make" in the subjunctive mood.

I am not surprised you would eliminate it from a technical specification, as it is very much American English. I do not know much about "technical English", but I imagine that passive mode, subjunctive mood, perfect tenses as well as homonyms would have to be eliminated or greatly reduced.

CASUAL ENGLISH
Place the water heater in a clean, dry location as near as practical to the area of greatest heated water demand.
Long un-insulated hot water lines can waste energy and water.
Clearance for accessibility to permit inspection and servicing such as removing heating elements or checking controls must be provided.

TECHNICAL ENGLISH
Put the water heater in a clean, dry location near the area where you use the most hot water.
If the hot water lines are long and they do not have insulation, you will use too much energy and water.
Make sure you have access to the heating elements and the controls for inspection and servicing.

EDIT: Doc was typing his message at the same time, but we are in agreement here.

Quote: pacomartin

EDIT: Doc was typing his message at the same time, but we are in agreement here.

Agreed, except it has been so long since I took a grammar class, that I called it subjunctive "mode" instead of the proper "mood". Always nice to have someone around to cover for my senility-induced errors.

Quote: pacomartin

From my meetings I learned that the phrase "table the discussion" means the exact opposite in Britain as the United States.

My wife learned something similar from her Australian Internet friends. They gave her all kinds of trouble when she mentioned she 'rooted' for our baseball team. She had no clue that 'rooting' indicates a sex act to Australians!

Quote: Toes14

My wife learned something similar from her Australian Internet friends. They gave her all kinds of trouble when she mentioned she 'rooted' for our baseball team. She had no clue that 'rooting' indicates a sex act to Australians!

I suppose all Brits know by now that "knock me up" means something very different in American English. Craig Ferguson, the Scottish comedian who has a late night American talk show likes to say the word fanny every time he gets a British guest, just because he can. In spanish "coger" means to catch as in I must catch a bus, however in some countries it means literally to f---k. That's a dangerous word for women.

I think that subjunctive was variously called a mode, a mood, and a tense. The preferred term today is mood, but it depends on your reference.

Examples of mood are conditional, imperative, indicative, injunctive, optative, potential, and subjunctive, where indicative is the ordinary default mood.

Subjunctive in Spanish has it's own set of verb suffixes, and is used more frequently than in English.


The subjunctive "be" shows up in older English.
(1) Fee-fi-fo-fum,
I smell the blood of an Englishman,
Be he alive, or be he dead
I'll grind his bones to make my bread.
(2) be that as it may
(3) blessed be !
(4) far be it from me
(5) if need be
(6) truth be told
(7) so be it

Not to be confused with habitual "be" that shows up in vernacular English
He be jammin!

These two examples are pretty famous, as they were defined by the linguist Robert Williams in the 1970's. They are phrased as questions you might ask a child accompanied by a drawing.

First comparison:
1) Point to the squirrel that is beginning to climb the tree.
2) Point to the squirrel that is fixing to climb the tree.

The second sentence is recognized by most Americans as AAVE (African American Vernacular English) or Appalachian English, and is very non-standard. I don't think it even exists in Britain.

Second comparison:
1a) Mark the toy that is behind the sofa.
2a) Mark the toy that is in back of the couch.

While most Americans considered the first sentence to more erudite, the second sentence is widely understood and is considered Standard American English.
Traditionally a couch was raised on one end with a low back, and a sofa was raised on both ends, but now they are virtually interchangeable.

The question is do British speakers recognize the phrase in back of? I was told once that British speakers tend to interpret the phrase as in the back of which would imply that the toy was buried in the upholstery. Is that true?

PBS has a good documentary from the mid 90's called "Do you speak American". Good look at how the "American" language came to be.
In the Chesapeake bay you have a small group of islands called the Smith Islands. The locals to this day on the island still speak a dialect that is similar to Shakespearean English. I vacationed on a tiny island in the bay (No cars, 1 store, 30 houses) when the locals were talking to each other I had no idea what they were saying.

British: I should sit down. American: Sit down. You should sit down. (Imperative).
British telephone operator: Are you through? American telephone operator: Are you finished?
British man near end of first date with an American woman: "I'd like to knock you up sometime" meaning of course I'd like to come visit you sometime. (Note: in the case that I am referring to they later married despite the female law student's initial reaction).
Australian: word "fanny" as in "fanny-packed tourist in Harrahs" is an improper word to use in the presence of females.
American: Sheila is a girl's name. No particular connotation at all and not in any way different than Mary or Susan or whatever. Australian: Sheila is a term used for a female, often in an unflattering manner similar to wench or broad.
British: words such as bloody and bleeding are impolite and generally avoided at table or in mixed company or general social situations.

They insisted he went to school means, to me, that at some time in the past they made certain that he was enrolled in a school and generally attended that school and is somewhat equivalent to they insisted he received an education.

To table a motion means to set it aside for later consideration and to end any present discussion of it, yet to put something on the table means to place it under discussion.

An example of forensic linguistic concerns: The JonBenet Ramsey document purporting to be a ransom note.
"Listen carefully" as an opening to a written document. Quite proper in Britain, considered strange in the USA. Quite proper in western areas of the East Indies.
"bring/take" as in the note's use of "bring" a suitable container to the bank whereas most Americans would say be sure to "take" a suitable container with you when you go to the bank to get the ransom money. Once again, in Malaysia "bring" is quite correct in such a situation. So a man of East Indian heritage would have used "Listen carefully" and "bring" as they were used in the ransom note despite all the differences between the various "English" languages used in the East Indies.

Quote: pacomartin

The question is do British speakers recognize the phrase in back of? I was told once that British speakers tend to interpret the phrase as in the back of which would imply that the toy was buried in the upholstery. Is that true?

Errr, yeah. Kind of. It's not a phrase you would hear here.

I am not a great user of the English language myself, my grammar is not perfect, nor is my spelling. I was always more interested in numbers ;-) but I will do my best to help out.

Quote: pacomartin

2) Point to the squirrel that is fixing to climb the tree.

I would NEVER hear that here, I would expect to see the squirrel in a pair of dungaree's holding a spanner (or wrench, as you say).

Quote: pacomartin

Sometimes I read things about British English (often in a historical context like WWII) and I wonder if they are still true? I know there are British contributors to this blog.

For example, I read that British read the first sentence, like the Americans read the second sentence. An American reads the second sentence that "he" is required to go to school by "them".

(1) “They insisted he went to school every day”
(2) “They insisted he go to school every day”

I think most Americans when they read the first sentence assume that someone has accused "him" of skipping school, and "they" are saying that "he" really did attend.

Is that really true? Does the second sentence sound just as natural as the first?

I voted getting closer. As a proud Englishman, Both for me could apply to the same concept. People younger than me are generally taking on Americanisms, mainly thanks to the prevalence of American TV Shows I would imagine.

The example I would give is

BE: Can I have a bottle of Bud please?
AE: Can I get a bottle of Bud please?

The whole classic English language however is suffering here, as multiculturalism is widening the use of other languages in day to day speech, and TextSpeak is also become more common in written communications.

Quote: Croupier

The example I would give is

BE: Can I have a bottle of Bud please?
AE: Can I get a bottle of Bud please?

They talk about that example in the Metro Newspaper a lot, the second AE version, is a question not a request, and the answer is "yes you can, would you like one?"

Quote: thecesspit

For sure, I read it as such. :) In would write the other intepretation as : "They insisted he had been to school every day."

Wikipedia lists the following two sentences as examples of how the dialects deal with the subjunctive clause.
"They suggested that he apply for the job" -- AmE
"They suggested that he should apply for the job" -- BrE,

In American English the use of the subjunctive is automatically understood. Subjunctive implies desire, doubt, mild imperitive, uncertainty, or need. To get the spelling of the subjunctive you take the infinitive "to apply" and drop the word "to". Unfortunately that spelling is identical to simple present in most cases.

Following that example, the sentence below presumably is clearer:
"They insisted that he should go to school every day".

----------------------------------
The sentence:
"They insisted (preterite tense) he had been (past perfect preterite) to school every day."
does have the same meaning in British and American English,

but

"They insisted he went to school every day." (went is the simple past) still means almost the same in American English as "They insisted he had been to school every day."

Quote: Croupier

People younger than me are generally taking on Americanisms, mainly thanks to the prevalence of American TV Shows I would imagine.

There is some debate about the effect of TV and mass media on language. To give an example there is a word in AAVE that is very prevalent. "Can I aks you a question?" The word aks is from an old Anglo Saxon word acsion which was used side by side with ascion . The standard English word came down as ask , but the AAVE word is aks.

While both have an etymology, you almost never hear the word aks on television. Yet the word still remains in the vernacular despite being almost completely dropped from the media, and having faded out of the standard English hundreds of years ago.

Paul Chowdhry on "aks".

Paco, you never cease to amaze me with the depths of your knowledge.

I do remember hearing the word aks in the context you mention on TV in a few shows. If i remember correctly it was used by people in a mostly black community. In fact I think one of the TV show was the Wire. I also seem to rember it being used by people in southern states.

Quote: WizardofEngland

They talk about that example in the Metro Newspaper a lot, the second AE version, is a question not a request, and the answer is "yes you can, would you like one?"

You know what I read. :P

Quote: Croupier

I do remember hearing the word aks in the context you mention on TV in a few shows. If i remember correctly it was used by people in a mostly black community. In fact I think one of the TV show was the Wire. I also seem to rember it being used by people in southern states.

It is almost always used by black people now, although, as I said earlier, it had a standard derivation just like ask, and was once more widely used. I put a link in the last post to a comedy routine about Aks or Ask, but here is a serious discussion of Aks or Ask.

Since Aks is not a standard verb in English it is sometimes spelled Axe or Ax or Acs.

Quote: Doc

I I think that in the American English usage, there actually is not an error of tenses in the second sentence -- I believe that the "go" may be subjunctive mode.

Indeed, I stand corrected. To be an error of tenses, it would need to be "goes", not "go" ... unless, there are two separate errors - both in tense and conjugation :)

Quote: pacomartin

These two examples are pretty famous, as they were defined by the linguist Robert Williams in the 1970's. They are phrased as questions you might ask a child accompanied by a drawing.

First comparison:
1) Point to the squirrel that is beginning to climb the tree.
2) Point to the squirrel that is fixing to climb the tree.

The second sentence is recognized by most Americans as AAVE (African American Vernacular English) or Appalachian English, and is very non-standard. I don't think it even exists in Britain.

I would assume in 1 the squirrel is on the tree already, whereas in 2, the squirrel is about to start climbing the tree, but hasn't yet. "Fixing" meaning to prepare yourself for something. But that's this limey's interpretation.

Quote:

Second comparison:
1a) Mark the toy that is behind the sofa.
2a) Mark the toy that is in back of the couch.

While most Americans considered the first sentence to more erudite, the second sentence is widely understood and is considered Standard American English.
Traditionally a couch was raised on one end with a low back, and a sofa was raised on both ends, but now they are virtually interchangeable.

The question is do British speakers recognize the phrase in back of? I was told once that British speakers tend to interpret the phrase as in the back of which would imply that the toy was buried in the upholstery. Is that true?

I'd read it as some sort of weird mistake meaning "down the back off". 2a just doesn't make too much sense. However you couch seems to be far more attractively decorated than the British sofa, so I'm a little distracted and can't find the toy you are referring to.

Quote: thecesspit

1) "Fixing" meaning to prepare yourself for something. But that's this limey's interpretation.
2) I'd read it as some sort of weird mistake meaning "down the back off". (2a) just doesn't make too much sense.

"Fixing" means exactly that. But the word is not standard American English, and most people would never say it. The word is strongly associated with AAVE, or Appalachian or "hillbilly English". Common variations are dropping the g so it is just "Fixin" or prefixing the letter "a" so it is "a-Fixin" .Since the mid 1950's the simpler parts of the vernacular was introduced to the wider world through songs like Slippin' and Slidin' and Whole lotta shakin' Goin OnOther aspects of the vernacular
You fixin' to eat. (leave out the verb "to be" entirely). Jafaican in the UK tends to leave out verbs like in: Galang' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>.

Other aspects of the vernacular
You fixin' to eat. (leave out the verb "to be" entirely). Jafaican in the UK tends to leave out verbs like in: Galang
I'm fixin' to paint me a picture. (old English use of word "me")
I seen it first (use of "seen" instead of "saw"; technically using the past participle instead of simple past)
I be workin' all the time (sometimes called the habitual "be", implying an action done frequently).
You was sittin' on that chair (use of the 1st and 3rd person "was" for the 2nd person) Also a feature of new London slang.
--------------------
But looking Standard American English (AmE) there is a lot of subtle differences.

1) But in back of is commonly understood in American English, but odd in British English. Some Black children do not recognize the word "behind".
2) It is my belief that surprisingly "in front of", and "in the front of" are used in both BrE and AmE and have identical meanings.
3) "Lest", "whilst","shan't" and the to some extent "shall" are almost gone from common spoken American English. In American legal language, the word "shall" means it is a requirement, while the word "will" means it is an intention but not an obligation of the contract. I don't know if this convention carries into legal BrE.
4) As you pointed out, in AmE the verb "got" or the phrase "got to" has largely replaced the phrases "have got" and the "have got to" still used in BrE.
5) AmE: " I'll go take a shower" BrE : " I'll go and have a shower" .

Coupled with the vowel pronunciation and the vocabulary (like queue), Americans feel so insecure that they have a pressing need to remake every British television show with even a modicum of success into American version. For some reason, however, most British films when remade as American films are flops with The Italian Job one of the few exceptions.
========================
SLANG

While "bugger", "bollocks", "crikey","loo", and "poof" get a fair amount of play in America there are some other questions about slang words that I have.


1) div, divvy (My theory is that this word comes from a Cornish pronunciation of the proper name "Davy", but I've never heard another explanation)
2) a lurgi What the hell is that?
3) oi or oy famously shouted at Susan Boyle when she was walking off the stage. Is this rude? Is it funny? Does it mean anything? What do the Ant and Dec say to her to tell her to turn around?
4) Why do you fill out a form while we fill out a form?
5) What are the American English expressions that just grate on you? That make you want to pull out your hair? For many Americans the AAVE word that seems to bother people the most is aks.

Quote: pacomartin

SLANG

While "bugger", "bollocks", "crikey","loo", and "poof" get a fair amount of play in America there are some other questions about slang words that I have.


1) div, divvy (My theory is that this word comes from a Cornish pronunciation of the proper name "Davy", but I've never heard another explanation)

I generally know it as an affectionate derogatory remark, generally meaning the "Divvy" has done something stupid or silly.

Quote:

2) a lurgi What the hell is that?

The dreaded Lurgi is a slang term for an illness, generally the common cold or flu.

Quote:

3) oi or oy famously shouted at Susan Boyle when she was walking off the stage. Is this rude? Is it funny? Does it mean anything? What do the Ant and Dec say to her to tell her to turn around?

Oi is generally an expression used to attract attention I dont know of it meaning anything but I could be wrong.

Quote:

4) Why do you fill out a form while we fill out a form?

Is this a typo? Do you mean why do we fill in a form. If so I still dont have an answer :P

Quote:

5) What are the American English expressions that just grate on you? That make you want to pull out your hair? For many Americans the AAVE word that seems to bother people the most is aks.

I dont really Have any I can think of at the moment, but will post if I do think of any.

Quote: pacomartin

3) "Lest", "whilst","shan't" and the to some extent "shall" are almost gone from common spoken American English. In American legal language, the word "shall" means it is a requirement, while the word "will" means it is an intention but not an obligation of the contract. I don't know if this convention carries into legal BrE.

Coupled with the vowel pronunciation and the vocabulary (like queue), Americans feel so insecure that they have a pressing need to remake every British television show with even a modicum of success into American version. For some reason, however, most British films when remade as American films are flops with The Italian Job one of the few exceptions.

Shall/will was a continual problem between the US and UK parts of a team I vaguely worked with at university. The American team consistently replaced all will's with shall's, only for the specification writer to replace them back again.

I tend to use one or the other these days when specifying behaviour. I am not a lawyer though.

Some Brits I know were willing to invade the US over the poor remake of the Italian Job. Personally I preferred the remake as the original was just horrible jingoism with some great one liners and a crappy car chase.

Quote:

========================
SLANG

While "bugger", "bollocks", "crikey","loo", and "poof" get a fair amount of play in America there are some other questions about slang words that I have.


1) div, divvy (My theory is that this word comes from a Cornish pronunciation of the proper name "Davy", but I've never heard another explanation)

No idea where it comes from, but totally divvy is someone acting brainlessly. Often used as a friendly insult or talking about oneself.

Quote:

2) a lurgi What the hell is that?

The Dreaded Lurgy was a term first invented by the Goon's in the Goonshow and kind of dropped into common usage.

Quote:

3) oi or oy famously shouted at Susan Boyle when she was walking off the stage. Is this rude? Is it funny? Does it mean anything? What do the Ant and Dec say to her to tell her to turn around?

Oi! Oi! It's a general hailing of someone. I used it a fair amount as a way of getting someone's attention, and is 'common' rather than out right rude.

Quote:

4) Why do you fill out a form while we fill out a form?
5) What are the American English expressions that just grate on you? That make you want to pull out your hair? For many Americans the AAVE word that seems to bother people the most is aks.

Line-up over queue. Queue is perfectly good word... you should use it more :)

The fact that "fag" and "torch" are such loaded terms in the US. "'avin a fag" or better yet "Bumming a fag" means something completely different in York than in New York.

Quote: Croupier

4) Why do you fill in a form while we fill out a form?

5) What are the American English expressions that just grate on you? That make you want to pull out your hair? For many Americans the AAVE word that seems to bother people the most is aks.
I don't really Have any I can think of at the moment, but will post if I do think of any.

Yes, #4 was a typo.

Ellen Degeneres and Hugh Laurie playing slang game.
Ellen: flossing, ba-donka-donk, shawty
Hugh: chin wag, chuffed to bits, (and he uses claxon in conversation)

I think that all Ellen's slang terms are Black American English because they are not common.

Eddie Izzard on American vs British movies
Helen Mirren speaking and English, and Hugh Laurie 'translating' into French

Of course, Hugh Laurie is now one of the most popular stars on American TV.

UK english - "Blimey, it appears I've compromised the gearbox in my saloon. I thought there to be a spanner, mole wrench and crossthread screwdriver in the boot, but it appears I was mistaken. Perhaps I'll call a breakdown truck or even haul it away by lorry."

US english - "Damn it, I broke the transmission in my sedan. I though I had a wrench, vice grips and Phillips screwdriver in the trunk, looks like I was wrong. Guess I'm going to call a tow truck, maybe even have to put it on a flat bed."

Southeast US english - "Dadgum, I puked the tranny in my rig. Figgered I got my tool chest in back, Junior musta took it. Reckon I'ma call me a wrecker, maybe even hafta toss it on a hauler."

Which one looks normal, Nareed? I'm amazed at those who can master two languages. I'm still trying to keep up with my one.

Any urban slang grates on me, while the more southern it feels, the more I seem to like it. 'Aks' bothers the hell out of me. 'Fixin' as in 'preparing' I find has a certain charm to it. I think it just follows the pattern of me disliking the city and loving the sticks.

Quote: Face

Which one looks normal, Nareed?

Beats me. I've been to Cambridge, London, NYC, Vegas, LA, Orlando, Miami, Tampa Bay, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, McAllen, Laredo, San Diego and Toronto, and I've never had a problem understanding the locals.

Quote:

I'm amazed at those who can master two languages. I'm still trying to keep up with my one.

I've wanted to learn Italian and Latin, too.

Quote: Face

UK english - "Blimey, it appears I've compromised the gearbox in my saloon. I thought there to be a spanner, mole wrench and crossthread screwdriver in the boot, but it appears I was mistaken. Perhaps I'll call a breakdown truck or even haul it away by lorry."

I've always called it a Phillips screwdriver, and found people here tend to look confused until I call it a crosshead screwdriver.

Better than the square headed screws that totally threw me at first.

Quote: thecesspit

Better than the square headed screws that totally threw me at first.

Square head screwdriver? Is that what we call an Allen wrench? =/

Quote: Nareed

I've wanted to learn Italian and Latin, too.

For educational purpose, or do you just like the challenge? If you like the challenge, I suggest a Native American language.

Hey paco, do you have any info on Native language? I ask because I'm trying to learn Seneca as there are only 16 elders left who are fluent in it. With other languages, like Spanish, you can kind of see an English comparison and the Latin root - (operandi, operation, operacion). In the Native languages, I fail to see any similarities whatsoever. French, English, Spanish, German, they all seem so close to each other, while I can't find Native influence anywhere, with the exception of geographical names (Town of Tonawanda, Chautaqua Lake, Canadaigua Lake, etc). It seems almost alien. Is it simply because all those languages came from the same general area and europeans took over the world (figuratively) or am I missing something?

Quote: Face

UK english - "Blimey, it appears I've compromised the gearbox in my saloon. I thought there to be a spanner, mole wrench and crossthread screwdriver in the boot, but it appears I was mistaken. Perhaps I'll call a breakdown truck or even haul it away by lorry."

Try it in Hawaiian pidgin.

Whatevahz, das his kuleana. I no like boddah.
Whatever, that's his business, I can't be bothered.

Ho killah, take it easy already.
Yo "killer", calm down already. (Clearly the guy is not a really a threatening person or "killer")

K-den brah, I goin’ see ya latahz den.
Ok-then, brother, I will see you later (then).

Go listen to your Kupuna!
Pay attention to your grandmother.

Brah, I wen eat too much food. I get small kine kanak attack.
Brother, I 'have' eaten too much food. I get small (kind of) "hunger pains". (hard to literally translate. Notice the nonstandard use of tenses)

Quote: Face

Square head screwdriver? Is that what we call an Allen wrench? =/

Allen Keys are hexagonal.

Robertson screw heads are square. Had to go check the name.

Quote: pacomartin

Try it in Hawaiian pidgin.

Whatevahz, das his kuleana. I no like boddah.
Whatever, that's his business, I can't be bothered.

Ho killah, take it easy already.
Yo "killer", calm down already. (Clearly the guy is not a really a threatening person or "killer")

K-den brah, I goin’ see ya latahz den.
Ok-then, brother, I will see you later (then).

Go listen to your Kupuna!
Pay attention to your grandmother.

Brah, I wen eat too much food. I get small kine kanak attack.
Brother, I 'have' eaten too much food. I get small (kind of) "hunger pains". (hard to literally translate. Notice the nonstandard use of tenses)

It's funny how close it is to my local reservation lingo. I mean, in a way it's not even close, but to hear it it almost feels like home, kind of like a brother that moves down south from up north and picks up a twang. It's different, but the same.

Hite, sgo down da box and stick it up
Hey, lets go to the rink and play lacrosse

Holy cats, looka dat mud turtle. Find her in da jig weeds latah
Wow, look at that dirty girl. You'll see her havin sex in the bushes later

Here go da jug. Watch, its a fierce one init.
Here's your drink. Careful it's strong.

Dey goin to get burnt and war whoop. Sgo den.
They're going to get intoxed and get loud. Lets go then.

It's kind of amazing how far we can stretch a language and still understand it.

Quote: thecesspit

Allen Keys are hexagonal.

Robertson screw heads are square. Had to go check the name.

Duly noted. Don't recall ever seeing the square ones. Probably an English thing =P lol.

Quote: thecesspit

Allen Keys are hexagonal.

Robertson screw heads are square. Had to go check the name.

Mr Robertson was a Canadian and they are very common in Canada. Not so much elsewhere.

As a prejudiced Canadian tradesman I think they are they best screws since they stick tight to the screwdriver so it easy to put a screw on and then move the screwdriver to where it is needed. Majority of the woodscrews sold in Canada are Robertson.

Quote: Face

For educational purpose, or do you just like the challenge?

Life's hard enough as it is without looking for additional difficulties.

No. Someday I'd like to do a long trip through Italy, and I figure it would be better to know the language.

Quote: kenarman

Mr Robertson was a Canadian and they are very common in Canada. Not so much elsewhere.

As a prejudiced Canadian tradesman I think they are they best screws since they stick tight to the screwdriver so it easy to put a screw on and then move the screwdriver to where it is needed. Majority of the woodscrews sold in Canada are Robertson.

I knew they certainly weren't British... I got very confused by not finding "proper" screws when I went to buy some.

Quote: Face

It's funny how close it is to my local reservation lingo. I mean, in a way it's not even close, but to hear it it almost feels like home, kind of like a brother that moves down south from up north and picks up a twang. It's different, but the same.

What reservation?

Quote: pacomartin

What reservation?

Seneca, Western New York area. Just about as far away from Hawaii as you can get =)

Quote: pacomartin

3) "Lest", "whilst","shan't" and the to some extent "shall" are almost gone from common spoken American English. In American legal language, the word "shall" means it is a requirement, while the word "will" means it is an intention but not an obligation of the contract. I don't know if this convention carries into legal BrE.

Quote: thecesspit

Shall/will was a continual problem between the US and UK parts of a team I vaguely worked with at university. The American team consistently replaced all will's with shall's, only for the specification writer to replace them back again.

As I stated much earlier, I'm not a grammarian, but I do remember a bit of what I was taught half a century or more ago (whether it was correct even then or not.) We were taught an unreasonably complex rule for the shall/will usage.

(1) For first person (I/we), "shall" just indicates future tense, while "will" indicates a determined attitude or a requirement. Examples: "I shall leave for my vacation tomorrow morning." "I will achieve my objective no matter what you say against me."

(2) For second and third person (you/he/she/it/they), it is exactly the opposite -- "will" indicates future but "shall" indicates emphasis or requirement. "You shall finish this this job to my satisfaction or go unpaid."

Don't ask me to explain why we were taught the rules that way. I suspect it was just to make grammar more challenging in school. I don't know whether any of us actually still speak it the way the teacher said to.

Quote: Doc

For first person (I/we), "shall" just indicates future tense, while "will" indicates a determined attitude or a requirement. Examples: "I shall leave for my vacation tomorrow morning." "I will achieve my objective no matter what you say against me."

In American legal contracts the obligations and desires are referred to in the first person. So anything proceeded by the word "shall" is a requirement, and the person is in default if he doesn't do that, but "will" becomes a desired return.

The question of a "future tense" is actually somewhat involved. The future is actually a mix of obligations, predictions, desires, conjecture, probabilities, and needs. In Spanish it is used for indirect quotations about intent "Mary says she will come tomorrow".

Interestingly when we are talking about the near future in English we use the "progressive present" such as "I am going to the store", which is the same tense as "I am reading a book". In fact if we want to emphasize that it is the actual present moment we say "I am on my way to the store" if we are talking on the phone.

It's a little more complicated in Spanish since there is a different set of verb suffixes for future, conditional , and subjunctive.

Quote: Wavy70

In the Chesapeake bay you have a small group of islands called the Smith Islands. The locals to this day on the island still speak a dialect that is similar to Shakespearean English. I vacationed on a tiny island in the bay (No cars, 1 store, 30 houses) when the locals were talking to each other I had no idea what they were saying.

Interesting. I'm surprised I lived in Baltimore for ten years without knowing about the place. I vaguely recall a controversy about ferry service to one of the Chesapeake islands, maybe that one. It was over the usual split between those who wanted to bring in tourism and those who wanted to keep it out.

Googlemap.

Quote: Face

UK english - "Blimey, it appears I've compromised the gearbox in my saloon. I thought there to be a spanner, mole wrench and crossthread screwdriver in the boot, but it appears I was mistaken. Perhaps I'll call a breakdown truck or even haul it away by lorry."

We dont really say saloon, simply just car.