Are you a good person?

Quote: monet0412

My point is that it turns out the same for Hitler as it does for the rest of us if you have no sort of Afterlife. You die and your worm food and nobody cares after 1000s of years. Heck we had tyrants just as bad as Hitler or worse all through history but over time nobody seems to care except for some history professors of course...

Did it really turn out the same? How do you know the name "Hitler?" What do you think of the guy? Do you think other countries will track you down and try to kill you for your actions?

If you live a "good" life the effect you leave is a better world and name sake legacy behind. If you do nothing with your life (no actions) you won't have much of one. If you do a lot of "good" or "bad" then you will certainly leave one, as Hitler did (albeit a negative one because he was evil).

It definitely doesn't turn out the same just because there's no afterlife. The life you live and the other lives you touch/inspire/etc matter so much more in the here and now than people realize.

I see your point. I can say that IMHO it is valid for the short run. However in the Long Run if you have no Afterlife it doesn't matter and one day when the sun blows up it still won't matter if you have no afterlife. If some renegade Meteor hits the Earth and all is lost and for some odd reason life starts over again nobody will be the wiser. Once again I see your point but if you have no Afterlife... in my mind... it won't matter in the Long Run.

Sure it will. The things you do and the person you are will 100% effect your kids, and thus their kids, and their kids, which not only will have an impact on them but the rest of the planet they inhabit as a whole. That could go on for generations and generations as we have so far.

In the end, whenever the planet ends (my vote is by us blowing it up) then you're right, it won't matter, but that's because there is nothing left. No Earth, no people, nothing except those who escape to outer space and grow plants on Mars like Matt Damon. Even then though, your actions today could have an influence on them ;-).

Quote: Wizard

... Let's assume there is no heaven, no karma, and no afterlife. What you see now is all there is...

I am sorry to hear of your losses Mike. It makes me angry to know that my friend was victimized.

As for your scenario and questions; Without an "ultimate good" to measure by, there is no "good" nor "evil". Everything would be relative to individual, so even opposing behaviors and motivations could correctly be characterized as, "good".

Quote: Romes

There are PLENTY of repercussions for ones actions. How did it work out for Hitler to be Hitler?

The disconnect is doing anything that you consider "bad" will inevitably get you "caught." I'm not saying to do it, but think about it... If you were to go try to kill 100 people, my money would be on your either landing your butt in jail for life or you dying. Seems like repercussions to me.

The opposite spin is good repercussions. When someone does something nice, if it doesn't go unnoticed it touches other people. If you see someone up in front of you hold a door open for someone, maybe it'll make you think about holding the door for the person behind you.

Actually, it worked out GREAT for Hitler to be Hitler. He got to be absolute ruler of a large and adoring nation. What eventually befell him had nothing to do with his being a bloodthirsty dictator--that actually worked very well for him. What caused his downfall was his terrible military decisions.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Actually, it worked out GREAT for Hitler to be Hitler. He got to be absolute ruler of a large and adoring nation. What eventually befell him had nothing to do with his being a bloodthirsty dictator--that actually worked very well for him. What caused his downfall was his terrible military decisions.

People from countless different countries were constantly trying to kill him. He had to be cautious and overly paranoid wherever he went, with whatever he ate, etc, etc, that ultimately lead to him dying. How many sleepless nights did he have do to knowing so many people/countries were tirelessly trying to kill him?

Have you ever been in charge of even a small group of like 20 people? It kinda sucks. Now multiply that by a country...?

I have a lot of cats and a dog. Sharing
in unknown to them, they take what
they want and screw the rest. There
are lots of people like that, they have
cut themselves off from morality and
just take, when the opportunity
presents itself.

Will they be 'punished'? Only if they
get caught. Heaven hell and karma
are fanciful inventions to keep people
from acting like animals. It doesn't
work on everybody, obviously.

Quote: Romes

Sure it will. The things you do and the person you are will 100% effect your kids, and thus their kids, and their kids, which not only will have an impact on them but the rest of the planet they inhabit as a whole. That could go on for generations and generations as we have so far.

I have no idea how no one seems to realize this. The afterlife is HERE. Me, you, we're all immortal. What are we if not a culmination of our experiences? And don't our experiences affect who we are, WHAT we are? And if we experience another, who in turn is a culmination of their experiences, do we not take some of theirs as our own?

My Grand Father lived through the depression. I see that in him. I see the way he saves, he coupons, he squirrels money away. I've saw it my entire developing life. Is it any wonder that I, too, have a bunch of squirrel pits with ammo, drugs, money, food, etc all over the place? Why do I do that? It's because I lived through the depression. I lived through it through him. And when his physical form is gone, who he is/was will still live on. Through me. Because we never die.

In this way, Karma is absolute fact. It's not some cosmic force, some equilibrium of the universe (a psyche major could probably define this better), but you are what you repeatedly do, and birds of a feather, and like attracts like. If you scumbag once, you might just go through life without having to pay for it. You make scumbag a lifestyle, you'll become a scumbag. You'll attract scumbags. And whatever scum you perpetrate will eventually surround you until your whole life is a never ending scumbag. Try it and see. Seriously, give it a whirl. One of the great features of this fact is that it works in reverse, too. It's a bit harder in reverse, but it does work. I might just be a bit of proof on that.

On topic, I didn't vote. There is no "Too Good" option.

Quote: monet0412

My point is that if you have no Afterlife... I see no point in right or wrong or good or evil. No point in anything really. So you can be Hitler and die and your worm food or you can be some Saint and you die and you get the same reward as Hitler... Your worm food.

I find it sad that so many people need a man in the sky to scare them into doing good. I respect much more the person who does it simply for the love of his fellow man.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I am sorry to hear of your losses Mike. It makes me angry to know that my friend was victimized.

Thank you.

Quote:

As for your scenario and questions; Without an "ultimate good" to measure by, there is no "good" nor "evil". Everything would be relative to individual, so even opposing behaviors and motivations could correctly be characterized as, "good".

I disagree. That sounds like something that you would hear batted around in a college philosophy class. While we all face moral dilemmas and have to choose the lesser sin sometimes, I must of us have a moral compass that makes us feel bad when we hurt another fellow human being. I like ME's story about not being charged for a glass of wine. Something would have bothered him if he didn't correct the error. We don't need to learn that from a philosophy book, normal people are born with both that as well as a desire to enrich themselves. What I was trying to do with the cooperation is pit these forces against each other to see what would happen.

Quote: FleaStiff

The first part is a distillation of the way Gypsies are brought up. You didn't steal it, he gave it to you. Gypsies are encouraged to fight, the winner is always right. Don't be a serf, bound by land, morals, laws etc, be a Man of the World.

Give me a hold'em game with myself and eight gypsies in the game.

I feel I am a good person. But being good doesn't have to make you a sucker. Trust is earned in this world and if someone you trusted F's you out of money, you can only learn from it. I say every week I have never fired anyone, they always fire themselves with their actions. To me being good takes hard decisions, leaders do that as do winners.

Unless you are screwing people you are a good person. Justification doesn't make you a good person.

Bigger question is in the end does it matter to you how you treated people in life?

Quote: Boz

I feel I am a good person. But being good doesn't have to make you a sucker. Trust is earned in this world and if someone you trusted F's you out of money, you can only learn from it.

I feel that if a friend borrows money from you and then suddenly vanishes without a "good bye," then you've been suckered.

Quote: Wizard

I feel that if a friend borrows money from you and then suddenly vanishes without a "good bye," then you've been suckered.

I don't disagree, but if you thought that person was a friend, you were either wrong in your judgement, or they justified it, perhaps both. I've been in that boat, learned from it and in some ways have become more cynical and less trusting towards others. But far more have paid me back and I know I helped them at a time of need.

Quote: Boz

I don't disagree, but if you thought that person was a friend, you were either wrong in your judgement, or they justified it, perhaps both. I've been in that boat, learned from it and in some ways have become more cynical and less trusting towards others. But far more have paid me back and I know I helped them at a time of need.

I wish I had your zen-like attitude about it. My initial emotion, that lasts a while, upon getting scammed by a friend, is anger. The only thing I have to learn from it is to be less trusting of everybody else on earth.

Ask around. Did he collect sports debts from others, get loans from others and then skip town?
Or was it just you who trusted him too much.

Did he disappear or was he disappeared?

Quote: bobbartop

Give me a hold'em game with myself and eight gypsies in the game.

Good luck. Here in Florida they are up to their thieving necks in real estate deals and bankruptcy frauds.

Quote: Wizard

I wish I had your zen-like attitude about it. My initial emotion, that lasts a while, upon getting scammed by a friend, is anger. The only thing I have to learn from it is to be less trusting of everybody else on earth.

Restore your faith in humanity. Lend money to me.

Quote: FleaStiff

Ask around. Did he collect sports debts from others, get loans from others and then skip town?
Or was it just you who trusted him too much.

Did he disappear or was he disappeared?

The person in question is still in town. However, he has evidently blocked my calls/texts as evidenced by the fact they never get responded to.

Quote: Wizard

Clearly I'm hitting on a very big topic and I'm not even sure what my question is.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Wiz,

Wow! Whatta thread! (Sorry about your loss.) So much has been shared on this thread, I hesitate to join. But, what the heck. If you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, I generally choose being damned for doing it. In your situation, I'd hurt, but I'd try to "forgive" and move on because there's more to this world than meets the eye, and forgiveness, freely given, best harmonizes the energy and heals the soul.

I'm really into energy. Don't ask me to explain it, because I cannot. (I can sorta explain why I can't explain it, but that's not for this message.) On multiple occasions I have been walking through a casino with my energy coach only to have him spin around like someone had called his name. He'll point to a slot and say, "Lucky, I think I need to put some money in this machine." He'll feed it a couple of $20s and within 5 minutes he'll pull out a $150 win, or something similar. Energy. It's tangible, if you can recognize it.

Joseph McMoneagle was Remote Viewer 001 in the military special ops Stargate group doing that "stuff." (Google him. His Stargate Chronicles book is best.) He sez most folks can learn to go "out of body" (OOB) or to "remote view" some distant location. But, like playing the piano, some have a natural knack, and others can only do it after long practice, if ever. I've had OOBs, but -- except to say, "Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore" -- I know not where I go (but, it is interesting nonetheless... and all without drugs!)

OK, while perhaps interesting, a sample of 2 is statistically meaningless. So, lets look at those who look at this, but who themselves (as good scientists are supposed to do) stand apart.

Pim van Lommel, MD, wrote the book, Consciousness Beyond Life. As a young Dutch cardiologist, he had a patient flat line for several minutes, but was brought back. The patient recounted an amazing OOB experience. Most MDs would tell the patient, "You were clinically dead. Period," and blow it off. Von Lommel didn't. He listened, then got the hospital staff to ask for the details and to record them whenever they encountered a similar event. Over time, other cardiologists in other Dutch hospitals heard of his work and asked to do the same at their hospitals, pooling the info. In the early 1990s, they published their findings in Lancet, one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world. Then, hospitals all over Europe asked to join his research. Van Lommel's book presents that research. Details of patients whose near-death experiences (NDEs) resulted in OOB events they lived to report. We'll come back to this book later in the text, so stay tuned.

Jim Tucker, MD, wrote the book, Return to Life. He works at the Division of Personality Studies (DOPS) at the University of Virginia medical school. For over 75 years DOPS has recorded instances of young children (3-4 years old, usually) who report having had previous lives, sometimes with sufficient detail to identify the actual person the child claimed to be. When I last checked, DOPS had lots of supplemental research data available, if you want to follow up on your own. Tucker's book is shorter than van Lommel's, is more often in bookstores, and is available in electronic form. (Great for parents, too!)

Each of these books follows the same pattern. The first part (about two-thirds) of the book deals with the subject. But, the last part -- and (for me) the best part -- is that each author then integrates (quite successfully, IMHO) their own work into current developments in quantum mechanics and theoretical physics. And, yes, with footnotes to the research of others, published in juried journals. Often, multiple footnotes in a paragraph. But, each author in his own way boils it all down to the new emerging paradigm about how the world works, including things like parallel universes and other equally far-out concepts about the energy that surrounds us.

I claim to be no expert, but my own experiences have been life changing. If you want to see why humans are different than baboons and banobos, check out the I Am video by movie director Tom Shadyac. Shadyac's message is that the Wiz (and everyone else) heals best by forgiving unconditionally, as Desmond Tutu engineered following apartheid in South Africa. My answer to the Wiz's original question is that I always try to harmonize the energy (but it doesn't fit cleanly into one of his choices).

These books (and the video) help explain the comment by Werner Heisenberg (co-discoverer of Quantum Physics) that, "Atoms are not things, they're only tendencies." We live in a world of energy. (And, yes, Dorothy, as best I can tell, there is a "there" over there, but exactly where it is may be unimportant.)

Lucky (pushing his luck a bit on this one...)

Quote: Wizard

I find it sad that so many people need a man in the sky to scare them into doing good. I respect much more the person who does it simply for the love of his fellow man.

There's a point of view that's somewhere in between. Almost all societies share certain taboos as well as reward altruistic behavior to some extent. This suggests that morality is a loose set of rules for behavior within the group. Immoral behavior is that which is beneficial to the individual (or seems so to him) but detrimental to the group.

We increase our chances of passing on our genes by engaging in group-positive behavior. Societies (not just human) create structures for reciprocal altruism. This genetic programming probably dates back to a polygamous time, when any one of the tribe's children could be ours.

So we're good not because we are inherently so, not because we are seeking a reward, but because we're trying to give our genes the best possible chance of survival. I think evil only became a viable alternative strategy when human societies became sufficiently complex.

Quote: LuckyPhow

I'm really into energy. Don't ask me to explain it, because I cannot. (I can sorta explain why I can't explain it, but that's not for this message.) On multiple occasions I have been walking through a casino with my energy coach only to have him spin around like someone had called his name. He'll point to a slot and say, "Lucky, I think I need to put some money in this machine." He'll feed it a couple of $20s and within 5 minutes he'll pull out a $150 win, or something similar. Energy. It's tangible, if you can recognize it.

Thank you for your concern and thoughts. I just have to say that I think your "energy coach" is a quack. However, I'm open to be proven wrong. Please tell him that I'm open to shadowing him in a casino and reporting, good or bad, on how well his energy-based gambling does.

Maybe I get scammed from time to time, but I've been trying to warn people of charlatans in the gambling world for 20 years now and hope my efforts have saved good people some money. Either this guy is a fraud or should be worth billions.

Like I've said, burn his house down. Don't get even. Get ahead.

Quote: RS

Like I've said, burn his house down. Don't get even. Get ahead.

House does burning his house down help me?

Quote: Wizard

House does burning his house down help me?

First hack his homeowners insurance to make you the beneficiary of a total loss payment.

Muahahahaha!

Quote: MathExtremist

First hack his homeowners insurance to make you the beneficiary of a total loss payment.

Muahahahaha!

Quote: RS

Like I've said, burn his house down. Don't get even. Get ahead.

Refreshing to hear sound advice from this website. Both of you have the right idea :)

Quote: Wizard

I find it sad that so many people need a man in the sky to scare them into doing good. I respect much more the person who does it simply for the love of his fellow man

No reason to really get into this can of worms. The only thing that I find interesting is that everyone I ever knew who didn't believe in God seems to say G--Damn or Jesus Christ all the time when they are mad or when things go wrong. I don't understand why they say that when they are non believers? Of course I don't understand why people say: "Good For You" all the time as well. I hate that garbage. Does that mean it isn't good for anyone else? Oh and "Good Luck"... I am so tired of 25 years of that garbage that I say this every time someone says it to me now... I reply: "You can take LUCK and shove it up your A--!"

Quote: monet0412

No reason to really get into this can of worms.

Really?

The history of the world proves you are wrong.

Our intolerance for the religious beliefs of others is the primary reason humanity is still mired down in a swamp of our own making.

Do away with concerns about religion, have all of us on the same page, and the sky, literally, is the limit.

Quote: monet0412

Oh and "Good Luck"... I am so tired of 25 years of that garbage that I say this every time someone says it to me now... I reply: "You can take LUCK and shove it up your A--!"

Just wish them a distribution with a leptokurtic positive mean in return.

Quote: Wizard

House does burning his house down help me?

Is it possible you want to share the entire story without naming names? Perhaps leave out some details. I guess I'm interested in knowing the circumstances
to better understand.

I have had friends for over 20 years I loan them small amounts, however I know loaning them anything more than 1k would be irresponsible of me, not just concerning myself, but for them as well. Perhaps they don't need that 40k car/truck, perhaps they don't need that expensive hobby, perhaps they shouldn't turn down overtime at work, perhaps they don't need rent that 4 bedroom house with a fancy pool, perhaps they don't need to gamble on the weekends, perhaps they don't need that 60' TV and high end entertainment system along 500 channels. A few hundred bucks and a book on saving money and learning to live below their means might be in order.
Question I would ask you: What did he say the money was for? Why did he ask YOU? Have you ever loaned him money before?What kind of a Friend and how long? Why do you think he's not paying you? What made you "want" to loan it to him in the first place?

I keep saying "him/he", but suddenly I am wondering if I should be saying her/she?

Quote: MrV

Really?

The history of the world proves you are wrong.

Our intolerance for the religious beliefs of others is the primary reason humanity is still mired down in a swamp of our own making.

Do away with concerns about religion, have all of us on the same page, and the sky, literally, is the limit.

No, actually, religion itself is the culprit.

Consider: each and every one of the tens of thousands of religions in the world claims to have a unique franchise on the truth re the nature of the cosmos and human existence, and that ALL OTHER RELIGIONS ARE FALSE. This makes everybody who doesn't share your particular faith an unbeliever, and therefore not worthy of being treated like a human being.

Humanity invented religion because we didn't want to acknowledge that the world is random and often unfair, when people die, they cease to exist, there is no great cosmic balancing of the scales, etc. Then we had a parasitic priest class who claimed to know all the answers and got fed, clothed and housed as a result. If we as a species had been smart enough to sidestep all that bullshit, how much happier humans would have been!

We won't hit Optimum until we are all either the same religion, or we are all atheists.

Me, I'd opt for atheism, but then again if it were conclusively, objectively proven beyond any doubt that god exists, well then I'd get in the line for the universal adoration.

We're all manipulated and most are followers, having nothing to do with religion. Your religion is all the tv, radio, internet now and when the rich men want a war, the poor boys will go die.

Question 1: I consider myself good.

Question 2:

Assuming no karmic actions, nor any afterlife, what does it matter? I don't think you'd need to necessarily have a moral compass which indicated a solid direction towards "good", "neutral", or "bad", as they'd all be points of view.

If any particular direction resulted in a positive outcome, that would be the best direction to proceed in. Sure, you would likely close a few doors or run into hiccups, but in the end, it'd be about the betterment of yourself, would it not?

I'd still be interested to hear from from those who say it is better to be good. Here is a clip from Better Call Saul I use to argue the other side.



Direct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW75x_pZ9po.

ME mentioned that not doing the right thing would cause him feelings of guilt. However, to play the devil's advocate, what if we've just been socialized to be sheep. In that video above why is shopkeeper "better" than the scammer who walked out with his money.

Quote: Wizard

I'd still be interested to hear from from those who say it is better to be good. Here is a clip from Better Call Saul I use to argue the other side.

ME mentioned that not doing the right thing would cause him feelings of guilt. However, to play the devil's advocate, what if we've just been socialized to be sheep. In that video above why is shopkeeper "better" than the scammer who walked out with his money.

It certainly depends on how you define "better." Is the scammer going to do better in life than the shopkeeper? Absolutely. Will the scammer feel better about that little incident then the shopkeeper? Undoubtedly! Will society ultimately punish the scammer in some way? Not if he's the least bit careful. The best strategy for the scammer is to keep screwing over isolated individuals and ideally, keep anyone from connecting the dots. (The look the kid gives the scammer is priceless.)

I haven't seen very many episodes of the show (and I think I should have), but is the kid in the video a younger Saul? Makes sense if this is a defining moment of character development. Oh and by the way, they did a great job in finding pristine forty-year-old magazines and canned goods for the set.

Quote: Boz

I feel I am a good person. But being good doesn't have to make you a sucker. Trust is earned in this world and if someone you trusted F's you out of money, you can only learn from it. I say every week I have never fired anyone, they always fire themselves with their actions. To me being good takes hard decisions, leaders do that as do winners.

Unless you are screwing people you are a good person. Justification doesn't make you a good person.

Bigger question is in the end does it matter to you how you treated people in life?

I wish I had that knowledge in just that way (bolded) 30 years ago. I would've been a better boss. Just a flash of insight for me personally in your post, Boz. Thanks.

Quote: Wizard

I'd still be interested to hear from from those who say it is better to be good. Here is a clip from Better Call Saul I use to argue the other side.

Direct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW75x_pZ9po.

ME mentioned that not doing the right thing would cause him feelings of guilt. However, to play the devil's advocate, what if we've just been socialized to be sheep. In that video above why is shopkeeper "better" than the scammer who walked out with his money.

It's a question of goals and values, Mike. The guy who scammed you doesn't win if he scammed you; he wins if you allow him to change your basic nature through bitterness, wariness, or resentment towards the rest of the world.

In his world, people are a means to an end, just like toilet paper. That attitude is contagious. Extrapolate it out like a disease pattern. If everyone who he steps on turns around and steps on someone else into generations, in a few years there is no courtesy, no teamwork, no contribution to the whole. The "wolves" can only exist BECAUSE there is a society larger than the individuals we are.

You had the money to lend him in the first place because you had enough to spare it for at least the time you thought he'd need it. There was a time, not 3 years ago, that you didn't, and we all remember it. You earned that money as a result of years of effort doing good for others here, others finding value in it, and offering in many ways (subscribe, donation, purchase wov related items, etc.) to pay. Then Josh found enough value in it to buy it for millions. All through your initial altruism.

The invention of the internet itself was a shining example of altruism and its benefits. An explosively new road to communication, free of charge. That you have to pay an intermediary to access it is not the same as the thing itself being available to all. That some people use it to view porn or pretend to be Nigerian princes does not diminish the thing itself. By giving it to the public, it became beyond any government, any private entity to own and control its message and use; it is what we each make of it.

Using it, there has been collaboration never before possible. Repressive governments have been overthrown or modified or sidestepped, cures for diseases have been discovered through discussions and exchanges, new inventions developed, millions of marriages and billions of social relationships formed. Enormous changes in structure and profitability have evolved in older forms of communication, retail sales, education, travel, to name just a few industries that were impacted, many negatively. And all from a few scientists and engineers deciding to share their network. Don't know if any of them got rich from it, dollar-wise. I don't even know their names. But look at what richness they gave the world, and how much you personally have benefitted from it.

You, on a smaller scale, have done the same thing for gambling. How many millions of dollars have people won or just not lost because they bet smarter based on your free websites? How much have you changed the industry itself? Gotta be a huge amount compared to nearly anybody.

It's not up to you whether that money will be repaid. But it is up to you whether it changes your life that it wasn't so far. Don't stop giving just because you ran afoul of a taker who ignored the implied or explicit quid pro quo. In giving we grow, individually and together; in taking we diminish.

Actions have consequences. If the guy is a stiff, publish his name as a welcher. Cut him off from the easy money. Sue him. That's the quid pro quo for a leech. He pays you back, retract it. But he's already earned whatever shame or notoriety that type of attention brings. (We already know stealing the bike was illegal and you've reported it) The rest of us in your society haven't earned your distrust. Moreover, we're the reason you had the money to lend in the first place.

Quote: beachbumbabs

It's a question of goals and values, Mike. The guy who scammed you doesn't win if he scammed you; he wins if you allow him to change your basic nature through bitterness, wariness, or resentment towards the rest of the world.

Replace "scammed you" with "set off a suicide bomb" and you're describing the essential goal of terrorism. It seems like many people are willing to let terrorists change their basic nature through bitterness, wariness, or resentment towards the rest of the world. If so, the terrorists are winning the battle for "hearts and minds"...

You buy some flooring from a major chain flooring liquidator and pay for it. A third party contractor gives you a quote of $1800 to install the flooring. You accept their price and they pick up the flooring and install it over two days. They do a decent job but not great. The workers never asked for payment because the office staff always requires a credit card and deposit when scheduling the install date. In my case they never asked for a card and never billed me at all. What do you do?

Second scenario:

You buy some flooring from a major chain flooring liquidator and pay for it. A third party contractor gives you a quote of $1800 to install the flooring. You accept their price and they pick up the flooring but do not show up on the scheduled install day. They show up the next day and start the install. They don't show up the following day to finish the job. They do show up the fourth day and finish the job. They do a decent job but not great. The workers never asked for payment because the office staff always requires a credit card and deposit when scheduling the install date. In my case they never asked for a card and never billed me at all. What do you do?

Does the fact that they didn't show up on install day, and didn't show up on the third day to finish the job change what you would do about payment?

Quote: DRich

You buy some flooring from a major chain flooring liquidator and pay for it. A third party contractor gives you a quote of $1800 to install the flooring. You accept their price and they pick up the flooring and install it over two days. They do a decent job but not great. The workers never asked for payment because the office staff always requires a credit card and deposit when scheduling the install date. In my case they never asked for a card and never billed me at all. What do you do?

Second scenario:

You buy some flooring from a major chain flooring liquidator and pay for it. A third party contractor gives you a quote of $1800 to install the flooring. You accept their price and they pick up the flooring but do not show up on the scheduled install day. They show up the next day and start the install. They don't show up the following day to finish the job. They do show up the fourth day and finish the job. They do a decent job but not great. The workers never asked for payment because the office staff always requires a credit card and deposit when scheduling the install date. In my case they never asked for a card and never billed me at all. What do you do?

Does the fact that they didn't show up on install day, and didn't show up on the third day to finish the job change what you would do about payment?

1. You pay. You don't tip. If there are obvious problems with the install, you insist they fix them at their expense or you report them to the BBB or Angie's List or whoever.

2. You pay, but you ask for and get a 10% discount due to the bad service and mediocre install. Then as above.

If you don't pay, they have courts and mechanic's liens on their side. Even if they didn't, you pay. You got a thing of value for an agreed on price. Pay the price.

Easy, you pay them in both cases. The only exception would be if you had a contract that spelled out financial penalties for lack of timeliness (in the second scenario). Lack of such a term means you're agreeing to pay them for their work after they do it.

In fact, even if you don't have a written contract, your actions (accepting their quote and letting them into your house to install the flooring) create an implied contract. You have a debt whether they billed you for it or not. The moral question, if there is one at all, is "do you pay your debts?"

In the specific case of home improvements, lack of payment to a contractor can lead to a lien on your property. Definitely avoid that.

Or is your question more specific, namely "do you wait for them to bill you or do you ask for them to bill you?" Personally, if I didn't get a bill after 30 days, I'd inquire. I want to make sure they didn't just sent the account to collections or start the construction lien process, both of which are a much bigger headache than just writing a check.

Quote: beachbumbabs

1. You pay. You don't tip. If there are obvious problems with the install, you insist they fix them at their expense or you report them to the BBB or Angie's List or whoever.

2. You pay, but you ask for and get a 10% discount due to the bad service and mediocre install. Then as above.

If you don't pay, they have courts and mechanic's liens on their side. Even if they didn't, you pay. You got a thing of value for an agreed on price. Pay the price.

You are a better person than I am. It has been three years and they never asked for any payment. Clearly, I fell through the cracks. I did not bring it to their attention and I sold that house last year. A little more "justification" on my part was that I had to board the dog for four days instead of two and both my wife and I each missed an extra day of work because of those two days they did not show up. I was so pissed off at them that I do not have any guilt about it.

Quote: MathExtremist

Replace "scammed you" with "set off a suicide bomb" and you're describing the essential goal of terrorism. It seems like many people are willing to let terrorists change their basic nature through bitterness, wariness, or resentment towards the rest of the world. If so, the terrorists are winning the battle for "hearts and minds"...

Excellent point. Look how the (largely baseless) fear they've created here has made 40% of the electorate embrace a candidate who is the epitome of antisocial evil. (Not to say that some goodly portion of those folks aren't deplorables anyway, as Hillary so correctly stated.)

It's been said that not only is fear by far the strongest human emotion, it has the power to overwhelm all other human impulses. It certainly seems that way in today's society. A perceived threat to a person's rice bowl, and they'll happily slit their grandmother's throat.

"Good" is a veneer, a very thin coating concealing who we really are. It cracks easily.

Two very recent karma stories.

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/boston-cab-driver-returns-187000-left-in-backseat-by-passenger-w212405

http://www.odditycentral.com/news/homeless-man-returns-designer-wallet-gets-rewarded-with-a-job-and-his-own-home.html

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

I haven't seen very many episodes of the show (and I think I should have), but is the kid in the video a younger Saul? Makes sense if this is a defining moment of character development. Oh and by the way, they did a great job in finding pristine forty-year-old magazines and canned goods for the set.

It's a great show. Yes, the boy in the scene is Saul. I too interpret it as a defining moment in his decision to be a wolf, as opposed to a sheep.

Nevertheless, you see through the show conflicts between good and evil within Saul. He usually chooses evil, even when good is clearly the better option. However, he has a soft spot for old people and seems to truly like to help them.

I'm still waiting for one of the many people who voted that it's better to be good to explain how in my moment of darkness here.

Some thoughts from Sheldon Brown on how to lock a bicycle.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/lock-strategy.html
Wow there's a lot of ads on that site. Sheldon never had ads on that site and he has been dead for over 10 years.

Am I a good person? I don't know. I think I'm a better person than I used to be. Maybe still getting better. I think the post 40 decline in testosterone helps.

Quote: Ayecarumba

As for your scenario and questions; Without an "ultimate good" to measure by, there is no "good" nor "evil". Everything would be relative to individual, so even opposing behaviors and motivations could correctly be characterized as, "good".

Quote: Wizard

I disagree. That sounds like something that you would hear batted around in a college philosophy class. While we all face moral dilemmas and have to choose the lesser sin sometimes, I must of us have a moral compass that makes us feel bad when we hurt another fellow human being. I like ME's story about not being charged for a glass of wine. Something would have bothered him if he didn't correct the error. We don't need to learn that from a philosophy book, normal people are born with both that as well as a desire to enrich themselves. What I was trying to do with the cooperation is pit these forces against each other to see what would happen.

The world, and what you know internally, only makes sense if you acknowledge that there is an independent standard of "good" that our thoughts and actions can be measured against. From your descriptions and actions it is clear, despite the hypothetical scenario described in the original post, that you have a sense that "reality" includes the existence of this "ultimate good".

Your worldview includes terms like "sin" and "moral". I posit that we are all born with that sense of right and wrong, but are unable, within ourselves, to choose "good" every time. Just watch a group of six-year old's when the pinata is broken at a birthday party. Do they initially attempt to give everyone an equal share of the loot? No. Typically, the quickest and most aggressive will grab the largest and best portions. The slow and timid will get the leftovers, if anything at all. Occasionally, you may come across an older sibling who will share with their younger relations... but I doubt they would give from their collection to a stranger without prompting. This selfishness is our base nature. As we mature, I think we realize how bad we really are, and how valuable working toward good can be, but not everyone makes the same choice to reject "sin".

Personally, I believe that there is more to our existence than the physical/sensual part of us that will eventually return to the dust. There exists an eternal, spiritual dimension in each person. Looking at our temporary worldly struggles through the lens of eternity puts them in their true perspective, and allows us to move past them. Without the eternal perspective, the loss of a friendship, prosperity, or even a bicycle can be devastating since there is no hope... only dust in the future. Turning to dust is not what you were made for Mike.

I'm at the bank and I cash my paycheck. The teller gives me back $100 too much. I recount it about 5 times to be sure I'm not crazy. 4 times it comes out with me being overpaid $100. Once, it comes out as expected. I recount, and I'm over 100 again. They're all $100's. Only 10 of them. Not too hard to count to 10.

So, I ask the teller to double check her drawer and tell me if she's short. She says no. (doesn't count it, just seems insulted.) Her co-worker/boss tells her to count it and she's short $100. I gave them the extra.

3 months later, I see $100 credited to my account. It wasn't that $100, but a promo for opening the account with direct deposit. It all comes out in the wash, I believe.


It took me many, many years to figure this out, but dishonesty is repaid by loss of liberty, reputation or both. Some guy named Disraeli wrote that in some fancy book. But, I remember it.

I also remember Sean Connery in an interview long ago: "Always tell the truth. Then it becomes somebody else's problem."

Seems like a good idea to me.

Quote: ukaserex

I also remember Sean Connery in an interview long ago: "Always tell the truth. Then it becomes somebody else's problem."

Seems like a good idea to me.

I heard something similar. Without taking the time to properly research or attribute the quote, it went something like "you need to remember the details of every lie you tell, but you only need to remember one truth." It's much easier to be a truth-teller than a liar.

On the other hand, perhaps really good liars are mentalist-like geniuses who should be feted for their abilities to spin yarns and scam people into acting against their interests, rather than just castigated for their dishonesty. A really skilled confidence artist is truly something to behold.

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
-- Keyser Soze

Quote: Wizard

I'm still waiting for one of the many people who voted that it's better to be good to explain how in my moment of darkness here.

Babs completely smashed it out of the park already. I'll repost so you see it this time.

Quote: beachbumbabs

It's a question of goals and values, Mike. The guy who scammed you doesn't win if he scammed you; he wins if you allow him to change your basic nature through bitterness, wariness, or resentment towards the rest of the world.

This is it. /thread.

But, as petroglyph would say, let me share with you a little story pole...

Not but 3 days ago, some piece of human refuse verbally assaulted my ex wife, my son, and threatened my son's life, all in my son's presence. Many here are fathers, many can imagine the emotions I felt. Emotions I still feel now. I've often said I am an angry, violent man... I couldn't even feel my hands. I have NEVER been so close to complete loss of control in my life. Even being so very familiar with rage, I could not comprehend what was happening within me. I, somehow, managed to postpone what would have been an asswhooping of the millennia, in favor of doing things the "right" way.

And we all know how the "right" way plays out. 5-0 visits the wife "We believe you, we understand". 5-0 visits the POS "We believe you, we understand". That's what they do - diplomacy. And I, and I'm sure at least some fathers can empathize, do not accept that as a viable resolution. The man needn't meet Death, of course not. But the man DOES need be close enough to smell the stink of Its breath, in my admittedly skewed opinion. So I tracked him down. I now know his name. His wife's name. His 5 kids names. I've seen his house. I know where he rests his head at night.

What's the play here?

Where I come from, debt is payed. The Old Ways state that when 5 dudes jump you and open a can on your ass, you get up, heal up, and put those 5 names on the docket. And every one you eventually catch alone, and every one is collected on. EVERY ONE. That is karmic retribution, the Way of Old. I know there's not few here nodding their head in agreement, maybe even a "f#$% yeah!", probably some wondering wtf I'm doing sitting here and why haven't I collected yet. After all, THAT'S the mark of a man. To defend, to stand up, to collect.

But the world has moved on since then. Perhaps, when this lesson I learned was created, a man could collect and the public would cheer. The public would cheer the good and shun the bad. No longer. Now, no matter how righteous, how deserved, I'd right now be sitting in ECJ awaiting trial. And is that the mark of a man? Of a father?

No. This angry, violent, hyper aggressive part of me is just that - a part. It's a construct, an edifice, something I've built all around the compassion, care, and kindness, the soft gooey center, of the ACTUAL me. The me I want to be. The me I am. The me that deserves and needs protection. Why then, with all the work over all the decades I've done to protect that center, would I take it upon myself to attack it from within? How would that center feel if all of it was in a cell? How would that center feel knowing 5 kids are crying because the bad man put daddy in the hospital, or worse? What would happen to that center after months if not years of guilt and public outcries?

Strength or "manliness" is not all about topping timber, drinking Jack from a bottle, and substituting Tobasco for Neosporin. Often the hardest battle requiring the most strength is a battle from within. It's not the strength to change to combat the transgression, it's the strength to NOT change to preserve who you have chosen to be as a person. In other words, exactly what our dear Babs just said.

You did a good thing. You helped a friend in need. To quote "A Bronx Tale",...

Quote: Bronx Tale

What's the matter?

This Louie Dumps owes me ( ) dollars. It's been two weeks, and whenever he sees me he keeps dodging me. He's becoming a pain in the ass. Should I crack him one?

What have I been telling you? Sometimes hurting somebody ain't the answer. Is he a good friend of yours?

No, I don't even like him.

There's your answer right there. It costs you ( ) dollars to get rid of him. He's never bother you again. He's never gonna ask you for money again. He's out of your life for ( ) dollars. You got off cheap.

You got off cheap. Money is nothing. It comes, and it goes. Who you are, THAT'S the treasure. THAT'S the value. YOUR value. Preserve it. Protect it. And continue to display it with strength and courage.