Are you a good person?

Coincidentally, since I started the cooperation game, I had a locked mountain bike stolen worth about $1,000 and somebody who I thought was a friend scammed me out $5,000 to $10,000, depending on how you measure it. I have been stolen from, tricked, and scammed before, but it is ironic to have it happen while I was doing an experiment on the nature of greed and sharing.

Clearly I'm hitting on a very big topic and I'm not even sure what my question is. How about this. Let's assume there is no heaven, no karma, and no afterlife. What you see now is all there is.

Question 1: Are you good, neutral, or bad?
Question 2: Is it better, in the long run, to be good, neutral, or bad? By "better," I mean better for yourself.

How do you define being good or bad? How about this -- You buy something at a small business and pay with a $10 bill. They give you back change for a $20.

A good person would correct the error.
A neutral person would be on the fence about it. It may depend on how much they need the extra $10 and how much they perceive the store owners should have it.
A bad person would keep the extra $10.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Sorry about your 2 losses Mike. It does try your patience with fellow humans.

Boy is this topic going to get interesting.......

I was taught growing up to "Do unto others as you want them to do onto you", or "treat others as you want them to treat you".
This makes it easy to decide if doing something is the right thing or not.

I believe this life lesson is sorely lacking in today's, "me first, screw you" attitudes.
And I don't just mean the millennials. It extends all the way to the baby boomers, many of whom apparently were never taught either of those two sayings as they grew up.

Boy that's rough. Good luck in recouping those items.

For your last example I am neutral. At home depot last week while buying 1200 worth of decking materials the cashier forgot to scan a $40 box of screws. Easy to do with all the items we had. We both saw it happen. My first thought was oh crap, should I say something or keep a $40 mistake. I was probably not going to say anything since it's not my job to police their staff, right? However, my wife jumped right in and made sure she scanned the item. I guess I would call myself neutral and my wife good.

2f, you might... nevermind

I try to be good as often as possible, like letting someone behind me in line at a store who only has a few items go ahead of me, and I always assume people are good unless they give me some reason to think otherwise. The one thing that seems to shock me whenever I read or hear about it is hit and run drivers, especially when they strike a pedestrian or cyclist and keep going.

Those people should rot in hell.

Sorry to hear about you getting scammed/robbed. Hopefully you can get restitution.

Quote: Wizard

How do you define being good or bad? How about this -- You buy something at a small business and pay with a $10 bill. They give you back change for a $20.

Funny you should mention this. I got breakfast on the way to work last week. Paid with a $5 and got change for a $20. I gave the cashier the extra money back.

So, are you comparing what people say on this thread with how they voted during the game? :)

Quote: Wizard

How about this -- You buy something at a small business and pay with a $10 bill. They give you back change for a $20.

I recently took on the responsibility for organizing a group of neighbors to go to a series of plays, concerts, and other performances in our area over the coming year. It was a bit of a hassle getting descriptions of all of the events we were considering, getting everyone to decide which shows they wanted to attend, purchasing the tickets from the box office, and getting reimbursed by the neighbors for the tickets they had requested. I didn't have folks put up the money in advance because there was some minor uncertainty about what some tickets would cost with fees, tax, etc.

A couple of strange things happened in this process. I visited the box office twice to get all the tickets; on the second visit, after I walked away with those tickets, I realized that I didn't get a receipt for my credit card purchase. I returned to the box office, and the clerk (very new on the job) had difficulty pulling up the purchase record (starting with my credit card) in order to print the receipt. I gave her the number printed on one of the tickets, and that allowed her to pull up the record, but she couldn't find anything in the record to show that the tickets had ever been paid for (even though I had them in my possession and had given her the credit card to process.)

We recognized the possibility that I had received the tickets without really paying for them. I was reluctant to have her process the credit card again, because I might wind up being double charged. How do we handle this situation?

First step was to give her a card with my phone number and suggest that she have a supervisor check the record and figure out what happened. I told her that if I had not been charged, they should call me, and I would come back to pay for the tickets. I waited close to a week without hearing anything and without the charge showing up on my credit card on-line. I took the second step of going back to the box office, talking to the supervisor, determining for certain that the tickets had not been charged to my account, and paying for the tickets for real.

Is that case of "free tickets" equivalent to the Wizard's example of being given too much change by a clerk?

I then distributed the tickets to the various neighbors, told them what they owed, and received either cash or checks from each of them. Within the past week, I have had two of my neighbors hand me checks for their ticket sets. I had to tell both of them that they had already paid me and that I had already deposited their money in my bank account.

Is that situation equivalent?

No, I don't think in the Wizard's example I would keep the excess change if I were certain that I had given a $10 bill and not a $20. That's just not who I am.

Does it really make it any different if it is a small business or a large business. To keep any money that does not belong to you is the same. If you cashed a ticket at a casino and they gave you 20 dollars to much would you keep it? Many people feel the casino robs us all the time so keeping the extra money would be pay back. A good person always would give the money back.....then there are the rest of us....

I voted neutral, but it's better to be good.

I would return the money to the small business with little to no deliberation, but I'm not sure that's sufficient to be good, as I think of it.

All of the good philosophers tend to say you should be good for yourself. But, it's more like you should seek enlightenment or virtue for yourself, then after you get it, you will be strongly inclined to be good. I think they're right, but it's easier said than done.

Thank you very much for the comments so far.

Regarding getting my bike/money back, not much hope for that. I filed an online report with the Santa Monica police department about the bike. All due credit to whoever made their web site, they made it very easy to report a stolen one. Of course, I've never heard anything back about that.

When it comes to being scammed by a friend ... well, you just got scammed. It would be a waste of time to go through the police or courts because the thief would just lie and it would be your word against theirs. The whole legal system is based, correctly, on the notion of giving the accused the benefit of the doubt.

So, I'm out. I just have to decide to accept it or seek revenge on the so-called friend who screwed me.

That is a good point about it not making a difference about it being a small business. You're absolutely right, that shouldn't matter. I only said "small" to make the moral decision harder to make...maybe.

I'm just hope there is reward in being good. If you return the $10, does it come back to you in the end?

You can see I have no answers and no point. Thank you for listening and I welcome all thoughts.

Quote: Wizard

I'm just hope there is reward in being good. If you return the $10, does it come back to you in the end?

You can see I have no answers and no point. Thank you for listening and I welcome all thoughts.

You said no karma, so how would it come back to you?

Tough question? I mean you may think you know how you will react in a given situation, but until it actually happens, you can never really know. If you are an old buzzard, or even middle aged, at least you have a track record. Many young men will not know until
they are tempted. Hopefully the judge will take their clean record into consideration when sentencing them.
I have more than one friend behind bars who said " I wasn't thinking. And then it was too late "
11 grand daughters 1 grand son. He is doing 6 years for stealing bikes and carrying a firearm. Pawn shop notified cops after he
pawned bike number 6 at same pawn shop.

Been there , done that on being scammed by a friend. Really adds insult to injury, doesn't it ???

As for this : " I'm just hope there is reward in being good. If you return the $10, does it come back to you in the end? "

Does it matter if it comes back ? ? ?

Integrity can be defined by what you do in a closed room where no one is looking. If you can get away with being dishonest, will you be dishonest? Then you're a bad person, plain and simple. Will you cheat on your spouse in a far-off hotel room? Will you correct the BJ dealer when she pays on a push?

I used to be a bad person in my youth, but not now. I'm very remorseful of that and try to rectify it in my daily doings. It's important to me now that my reputation is honest in every aspect of my life. I would absolutely correct the cashier about the change issue; my integrity can't be sold for $10. I've no idea at what price I would turn away from my moral principles, but I'd feel shame if I ever discovered that price.

I rescue and bottle-feed stray kittens. I tell homeless people with cardboard signs to get lost. Is that "neutral"?

By the way, the person on the fence about keeping the $10 is not neutral. His personal need doesn't have anything to do with it being right or wrong to keep the $10. That's Marxist theory bullshit.

Sorry about your double losses. I think I have an alibi. 😜

I don't understand all of the poll choices, so I didn't vote. Besides, self-evaluation polls tend to skew toward the positive end. IE: Most people think they are above average at __blank__. You don't need to be a math wiz to know that that doesn't add up.


The example of getting the wrong change? I give it back. However the example of having an item that did not scan? That's a keeper.

Difference is that with the wrong change, the cashier was short when they cash out and get in trouble.

Last week I did my best impersonation of axelwolf by leaving a $400 ticket in a slot machine. I didn't realize my mistake for about 15 minutes. When I got to the machine an old lady was playing. I asked about the ticket and she pulled it out if her purse and gave it to me. I couldn't believe it. I thought it was long gone. That woman is a good woman and, in a weird way, inspired me to be a better person. Kumbaya my Lord kumbayaaaaaaaa

People can change too. It's always amazing to see these murderers that are caught decades later living perfectly normal lives and people speak so highly about them. I guess one could argue they only changed as to not get caught.

On the religious aspect, someone called Jesus good and he said something like no one is good except his Father in heaven. Maybe he was referring to some philosophical concept about every human act being a selfish act. Even when we do good things we do them to feel good about ourselves.

Wow my partner did the same thing last week with a $300 ticket,ran back 5 minutes later and an old lady gave them back the ticket.
Thank goodness for old ladies:)

First of all, I'm sorry for your losses. I can empathize. Ten or so years ago, I had a so-called friend testify against me in civil court. I KNEW he was lying, so I was baffled. I later found out that he had been paid $3000 for his false testimony. I was forced to settle the suit for a $20,000 loss. Worse still. six months later, my sister stole $750,000 from me and our family (we have never been able to locate her or the money). Yet, after all that, I still tend to trust people. I hate myself for it, though!

I actually think that bad people do better than good people, if for no other reason than good people tend not to enrich themselves at the expense of others. The poster child for "bad person who has done well" would be, of course, Donald Trump, but it's not like there aren't millions of other examples.

So I adhere to a moral code despite all evidence that doing so is and will be materially detrimental to me. I'm smart enough that I could easily run undetectable, unpunishable scams and make a good, even great living doing it. I'd have a house on the shore of Lake Tahoe now instead of a cockroach-infested apartment surrounded by gang-bangers. And I could have bought myself an eastern European supermodel "wife." But I'm not sure I could live with myself if I went down that road.

So let's all of us who retain a moral center acknowledge that we're going to get screwed by those who have no such scruples, prepare to serve Emperor Trump and his alt-white acolytes, and live with the fact that we, because of who we are, can't beat 'em OR join 'em. Humanity doesn't deserve this planet, and soon won't have it, because evil is the fundamental aspect of humanity and is beginning to utterly dominate. The concept of "good" is a recent invention anyway, and has been shown conclusively to be bad strategy, aside from being profoundly unnatural. We are apes, and want to bash each others' heads in with clubs and take their stuff.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

We are apes, and want to bash each others' heads in with clubs and take their stuff.

That reminds me of the opening scene of 2001: A Space Odyssey, which in turn reminds me of the opening scene in one of my favorite movies:

>>>>>Coincidentally, since I started the cooperation game,
Saw a thread, never read it.

>>>>I had a locked mountain bike stolen worth about $1,000
So where is its GPS xmtr? You put a doodad on it that looks like a reflector. Never heard of a bolt cutter?

>>>> and somebody who I thought was a friend scammed me out $5,000 to $10,000,
Old con man saying" you can't cheat an honest man".

>>>> I have been stolen from, tricked, and scammed before, but it is ironic to have it happen
>>>>while I was doing an experiment on the nature of greed and sharing.
Nah, once you start down the 'silly path' things like that happen.

>>>> Let's assume there is no heaven, no karma, and no afterlife. What you see now is all there is.
That is a pretty safe assumption because it is obviously true.

Question 1: Are you good, neutral, or bad?
Question 2: Is it better, in the long run, to be good, neutral, or bad? By "better," I mean better for yourself.
How do you define being good or bad? How about this -- You buy something at a small business and pay with a $10 bill. They give you back change for a $20.

........A good person would correct the error.
No, a brainwashed person would correct the error.

>>>>A neutral person would be on the fence about it.
No, a brainwashed person had doubts, second thoughts, etc. A man of the world has no doubts and no regrets. Ever.
>>>> It may depend on how much they need the extra $10.
Ridiculous. You don't have to need anything just to take it. You didn't steal it he gave it to you by being stupid and weak.
>>>>>>A bad person would keep the extra $10.
No, a bad person would get caught at it or be bothered by it.

Look pal, go back to your early years and Kindergarted stuff.

Remember the golden rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules.
Do undo others before they do unto you.
Honesty is the best policy is something you parrot, but don't believe in for a moment.

Think of a Gypsy who has just picked a man's pocket and for some reason, the mark discovers it and spins around to challenge the pick pocket. The Gypsy ain't gonna think about morality. He is going to thing about the size and apparent fighting skill of the mark. If the Gypsy decides the mark has the moxie to be a nuisance, the Gypsy will drop the wallet to the ground, but if the mark is stupid enough to bend down to retrieve it, the Gypsy will bash his head in. If the mark stands his ground and waits for more distance before stooping to pick up the wallet, then and only then will the Gypsy back off. No regrets. He will just hope the next score works out better. The Gypsy doesn't need the money, its just the right thing to do. You take, you fight to keep what you take if you can but you don't feel no guilt about anything.

If the shop owner discovers his mistake, you tell him..Screw you jerk. and keep the money.

If the shop owner does not discover the mistake, you alert him to it and return the ten dollars to him if you happen to be accompanied by some mark you are grooming to trust you. Perhaps some jerk who owns an expensive mountain bike or some jerk who believes in karma or that honesty is the best policy.

But whatever you do, you don't hesitate and you don't try to second guess anything. You just take YOUR ten dollars and silently laugh at the serf who gave it to you. Or you return the extra ten and silently laugh at the stupid bike-owning mark you are grooming.

Be a man of the world; not a serf. A man of the world has never stolen anything in his life. A man of the world has never lied in his life. A man of te world has never trusted anyone in his life. A man of the world has never had any doubts in his life. A man of the world takes, he does not give.

Just remember it is a question of values. Remember the real estate developer who turned down his partner's offer of a quarter of a million dollars to keep silent about the danger of a flash flood in the area. That afternoon the developer happened to rescue two young kids from a flash flood. The last thing the developer saw was the kids knife and the last thing he heard as the kid rifled his wallet was 'Jeez, sixty dollars, I'd kill anyone for sixty dollars.

Life is just a question of values.

Quote: MathExtremist

That reminds me of the opening scene of 2001: A Space Odyssey, which in turn reminds me of the opening scene in one of my favorite movies:

In Clarke's book, the signal moment in human evolution was when the ape-man who was inspired by the monolith learned to use tools--and the first thing he did with his new bone tool was to kill another ape-man. The monolith, put there by aliens, had as its purpose to make the apes smarter. It worked, too! Let the head-bashing begin!

One poor ape tried to organize a tool-using collective for the good of the tribe, but Donald Trump's distant ancestor brained him with a rock and ate him.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

First of all, I'm sorry for your losses. I can empathize. Ten or so years ago, I had a so-called friend testify against me in civil court. I KNEW he was lying, so I was baffled. I later found out that he had been paid $3000 for his false testimony. I was forced to settle the suit for a $20,000 loss. Worse still. six months later, my sister stole $750,000 from me and our family (we have never been able to locate her or the money).

... I wonder why your own sister wouldn't want to speak to you anymore. That's a real head scratcher. I can somewhat empathize cause my own dog won't look me in the eye.

Quote: FleaStiff

>>>>>Coincidentally, since I started the cooperation game,
Saw a thread, never read it.

>>>>I had a locked mountain bike stolen worth about $1,000
So where is its GPS xmtr? You put a doodad on it that looks like a reflector. Never heard of a bolt cutter?

>>>> and somebody who I thought was a friend scammed me out $5,000 to $10,000,
Old con man saying" you can't cheat an honest man".

>>>> I have been stolen from, tricked, and scammed before, but it is ironic to have it happen
>>>>while I was doing an experiment on the nature of greed and sharing.
Nah, once you start down the 'silly path' things like that happen.

>>>> Let's assume there is no heaven, no karma, and no afterlife. What you see now is all there is.
That is a pretty safe assumption because it is obviously true.

Question 1: Are you good, neutral, or bad?
Question 2: Is it better, in the long run, to be good, neutral, or bad? By "better," I mean better for yourself.
How do you define being good or bad? How about this -- You buy something at a small business and pay with a $10 bill. They give you back change for a $20.

........A good person would correct the error.
No, a brainwashed person would correct the error.

>>>>A neutral person would be on the fence about it.
No, a brainwashed person had doubts, second thoughts, etc. A man of the world has no doubts and no regrets. Ever.
>>>> It may depend on how much they need the extra $10.
Ridiculous. You don't have to need anything just to take it. You didn't steal it he gave it to you by being stupid and weak.
>>>>>>A bad person would keep the extra $10.
No, a bad person would get caught at it or be bothered by it.

Look pal, go back to your early years and Kindergarted stuff.

Remember the golden rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules.
Do undo others before they do unto you.
Honesty is the best policy is something you parrot, but don't believe in for a moment.

Think of a Gypsy who has just picked a man's pocket and for some reason, the mark discovers it and spins around to challenge the pick pocket. The Gypsy ain't gonna think about morality. He is going to thing about the size and apparent fighting skill of the mark. If the Gypsy decides the mark has the moxie to be a nuisance, the Gypsy will drop the wallet to the ground, but if the mark is stupid enough to bend down to retrieve it, the Gypsy will bash his head in. If the mark stands his ground and waits for more distance before stooping to pick up the wallet, then and only then will the Gypsy back off. No regrets. He will just hope the next score works out better. The Gypsy doesn't need the money, its just the right thing to do. You take, you fight to keep what you take if you can but you don't feel no guilt about anything.

If the shop owner discovers his mistake, you tell him..Screw you jerk. and keep the money.

If the shop owner does not discover the mistake, you alert him to it and return the ten dollars to him if you happen to be accompanied by some mark you are grooming to trust you. Perhaps some jerk who owns an expensive mountain bike or some jerk who believes in karma or that honesty is the best policy.

But whatever you do, you don't hesitate and you don't try to second guess anything. You just take YOUR ten dollars and silently laugh at the serf who gave it to you. Or you return the extra ten and silently laugh at the stupid bike-owning mark you are grooming.

Be a man of the world; not a serf. A man of the world has never stolen anything in his life. A man of the world has never lied in his life. A man of te world has never trusted anyone in his life. A man of the world has never had any doubts in his life. A man of the world takes, he does not give.

Just remember it is a question of values. Remember the real estate developer who turned down his partner's offer of a quarter of a million dollars to keep silent about the danger of a flash flood in the area. That afternoon the developer happened to rescue two young kids from a flash flood. The last thing the developer saw was the kids knife and the last thing he heard as the kid rifled his wallet was 'Jeez, sixty dollars, I'd kill anyone for sixty dollars.

Life is just a question of values.

Quoted this because it's sort of...extraordinary. Wanted it intact.

FleaStiff, I know you, or thought I did. My eyes bugged out when I saw you wrote this. Who the hell are you, then, if you believe this stuff, or act like this in real life. Was this a drunken or bitter piece of fiction/rant?

Speechless. Would not know where to start.

Quote: Wizard

So, I'm out. I just have to decide to accept it or seek revenge on the so-called friend who screwed me.

Seneca or Buddha or someone like that would say your goal should be to not let it bother you, partially because this is the area where you have the most control. Again, easier said than done. But if you approach their idea of being a "good person," your reward is freedom from all of the anxiety and misery you experience in such a situation.

Although, as mentioned elsewhere, there is the issue of protecting others from this scammer by making his deed public.

Quote: Wizard

I'm just hope there is reward in being good. If you return the $10, does it come back to you in the end? .

Your reward is that you're good. In this case, you would be free of the desire to steal, which is good for you for a number of reasons.

One good way to illustrate this is to exaggerate everything. I assume you don't have the desire to kill random strangers.

So what is your reward for not being a serial killer? You don't really need one. It is good to not want to kill random strangers, and having this goodness is the reason you are not a serial killer.

Quote: Wizard

How do you define being good or bad? How about this -- You buy something at a small business and pay with a $10 bill. They give you back change for a $20.

Once four of us stood around arguing with bartender that they charged us too little and the check was wrong.

I consider myself good but dark. I try to be good but my faith in human nature is very low.

Quote: GWAE

You said no karma, so how would it come back to you?

That's what I was going to ask those who voted it is better to be good. I'm not saying that it is.

Quote: cednets67

If you are an old buzzard,

Hi Buzz. Nice try.

I don't necessarily believe in karma, like you're "due" or a direct cause and effect.....but I think overall & in general good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. Or at least I'd hope so. But if you steal from someone that doesn't mean something bad is gonna happen soon.

I think being a good person has more to do with giving than not taking.....or more of how you are in general than specific things you do. Same with being bad. Like if you're genuinely good or bad.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

We are apes, and want to bash each others' heads in with clubs and take their stuff.

I'm sorry for your loss at your so-called friend and your sister.

That's true we're apes but not all apes are bad. Consider our closest relatives, the bonobo chimpanzee. According to the link, "bonobos are capable of altruism, compassion, empathy, kindness, patience, and sensitivity."

Quote: beachbumbabs

Speechless. Would not know where to start.

Yes, that was quite a post wasn't it. Thanks for preserving it in quotes. I haven't seen one like that from him since the one, and I hope I'm paraphrasing correctly, that said that we should kill all illegal aliens, including women and children.

Sorry to hear you are dealing with such disappointment, Michael.

I'll just repeat "cheaters never prosper". Your ex-buddy will not, probably had problems you were unaware of,* and ironically would have prospered in fact in the long run by not cheating you.

As for myself, believe in honesty and straight shooting. It's become a reputation I guard too; that's where you want to be. Oddly, though, recently have resolved some personal issues [mostly with old jobs] by examining the 'other side of the story' and saying to myself "embrace the inner no-good-SOB" if that is what it is, and smiling about it.

*unpaid markers with district attorney heat on them? LOL

The "man of the world" or whatever that FleaStiff described sounds like a total a**hole. Sounds like some losers I knew in high school, ya know, they'd steal money from each other then blame it on someone else while trying to make the victim feel guilty for accusing the idiot for stealing. Whatever. Now, at least 2 are in jail or prison, haven't heard about a few others, likely over dosed on heroin and/or dead, and the rest seem to be complete losers doing the same they've always done. (Well I guess one is doing well, she moved out of town, had a few kids, seems to be doing well.)

Quote: GWAE

I guess I would call myself neutral and my wife good.

2f, you might... nevermind

You knew that I was going to be tempted to rate your wife as 'good'.

What you prolly missed is I was thinking 'because she puts up with you' ;-)

Me? I try to be 'good'. I frequently fail miserably, but not as often as I did when I was younger.
I think I have done enough 'good' to offset much of the previous 'bad' but have to admit that I may still fall quite short of 'neutral' over the course of my life, though I am slowly closing the gap.

Self evaluation as to whether one is good or bad, or neutral, may be beyond our current level of collective evolution. But hopefully we are closing that gap as well.....

I prefer for there to be a heaven and hell, and karma, for as many people as possible to believe in. Less chance I get my bike stolen and me cheated in a business deal......

<edit> If them Southern Baptists had promised dozens of virgins in heaven, I'd prolly have lived a better life ;-!

Quote: Wizard

...Question 1: Are you good, neutral, or bad?

Good. At least I try to think so.

Quote: Wizard

Question 2: Is it better, in the long run, to be good, neutral, or bad? By "better," I mean better for yourself.

Good... but it may or may not be better for "yourself" as you described. For one thing Good, Neutral, and Bad are all subject to opinion. What one person thinks is okay (taking an over payment in a casino) others (PaiGowDan) "might" think is a crime and a sin and that you're the worst person alive.

Quote: Wizard

How do you define being good or bad? How about this -- You buy something at a small business and pay with a $10 bill. They give you back change for a $20.

A good person would correct the error.
A neutral person would be on the fence about it. It may depend on how much they need the extra $10 and how much they perceive the store owners should have it.
A bad person would keep the extra $10.

Thank you for your thoughts.

More than likely would correct the error, though I couldn't say this with 100% certainty.

Quote: Wizard

...I'm just hope there is reward in being good. If you return the $10, does it come back to you in the end?...

This is too much "Karma" in my opinion. When I find a wallet, or $10 as you stated above, and return it to the rightful owner... I don't expect/want a "reward" for doing the right thing... Otherwise it's not just doing the right thing, you're looking for a payout. The goodness that comes from doing the right thing is making the world a better place to live in. If everyone whom found $10 would return it to the rightful owner, it would be a pretty good world to live in. I think that's the plan at least I strive for by being "good." Hoping there's more good than bad people and this world is a tolerable place to live. Don't get me wrong though, I have my doubts... =P.

Quote: AZDuffman

I consider myself good but dark. I try to be good but my faith in human nature is very low.

Quote: Wizard

I'm sorry for your loss at your so-called friend and your sister.

That's true we're apes but not all apes are bad. Consider our closest relatives, the bonobo chimpanzee. According to the link, "bonobos are capable of altruism, compassion, empathy, kindness, patience, and sensitivity."

Yeah, I'm familiar with their behavior--it seems like they want to have sex with each other more than do anything else. Make love, not war.

We're more like baboons, though. Lots of posturing and screaming at one another. Our society is all about which baboon(s) can establish dominance. Those contests consume a tremendous amount of our time and energy, as they do in an actual baboon troop.

And as far as the "is it better" question goes, well, a baboon troop fighting a bonobo troop for territory would mow them down in a couple of hours. So from an evolutionary standpoint, it's probably better to be a baboon-human than a bonobo-human.

Quote: Wizard

Question 2: Is it better, in the long run, to be good, neutral, or bad? By "better," I mean better for yourself.

A lot of this comes down to brain chemistry and biology. Some people's minds are simply wired differently than the majority, but of course it's the majority who inherently create moral norms. So "antisocial personality disorder" (a.k.a. psychopathy) is classed as a disorder by virtue of statistics -- it's less prevalent than the way most people's brains work, which is as social creatures who tend to care about the feelings and well-being of others. Consider that if the majority of humans acted antisocially (and you were one of them), you wouldn't even have asked your question.

If you get over-paid on change at a bar, and you give it back, it's because you feel guilty and/or some other sense of right/wrong that leads you to act in that way. I did that the other day at dinner -- ordered salad, pasta, glass of red wine; the bill came and the wine wasn't on it. I told the waitress, she corrected the bill, I paid more than they were originally asking me to. I don't think I'm a "sucker" or "chump" for not taking advantage of her mistake. I entered into a contract when I ordered, they fulfilled their end of the bargain, so I fulfilled mine. Offer, acceptance, consideration.

But someone who literally cannot care (not merely does not care) about the emotions or well-being of others, they'd likely not look the gift horse in the mouth and accept the free wine. Are they "bad"? Or just "different"?

I don't know if it's possible or even correct to put everyone on the same measuring stick. Certainly there's a long history of trying to do exactly that -- secular morality or religious behavioral dictates were always designed to apply to everyone -- but it's not actually self-evident that it's proper to have a common code of moral standards that encompasses all people. It can be easily argued that, in fact, that's what the law is for. The law against murder, for example, holds even though not everyone thinks killing other people (or even certain other people) is wrong.

One last thought: if you don't have ASPD, that is, you do have the biological capacity to care about others, then whether you choose to do the "right" thing can actually have an impact on your health. Emotional states and physical health are well-known to be linked, and it can be perfectly rational to value your well-being above your net worth (in fact, it usually is). Here's a perfect example:
The Tell-Tale Heart

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How do you define being good or bad? How about this -- You buy something at a small business and pay with a $10 bill. They give you back change for a $20.

A good person would correct the error.
A neutral person would be on the fence about it. It may depend on how much they need the extra $10 and how much they perceive the store owners should have it.
A bad person would keep the extra $10.

Does this mean a neutral person could go good or bad depending on their mood, which basically in my mind a neutral entity has no moral compass and will act randomly? The pondering whether to keep it or reasons to do so would not enter a good persons mind as their only thoughts would be it's not mine so I must give it back?

It also seems to me, a bad person looks for or creates opportunities to gain unearned money or awards.

Just some thoughts.

Quote: odiousgambit

Sorry to hear you are dealing with such disappointment, Michael.

I'll just repeat "cheaters never prosper"

One of them is going to be president. Or, if you don't believe that, consider the preponderance of PED using pro athletes, who are never caught and live lives most of us dream of. Even those who are caught have it pretty good on the whole. Anyway, there are plenty of people who lie, cheat and steal their way through life and have sex with attractive people, eat in fancy restaurants and die rich. Granted, they take more risks than honest people, but if they are smart about it, they can minimize them. Though it is rare for such a person to be smart about risk.

Are they they happiest, most contented people, or are they trying to fill a bottomless hole?

We have very little influence on any of that. All we can do is decide if we will let it bother us.

Well, in retail, the cashier is still responsible for items as well. Their register is linked to their clerk ID/login and everything is balanced. Stock loss can and will be traced back to cashiers. How do you think they catch them when 'bad' cashiers give their friends 'discounts' at the register.
Don't keep un-scanned items. That's a baaaad puddy cat.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Quoted this because it's sort of...extraordinary. Wanted it intact.

FleaStiff, I know you, or thought I did. My eyes bugged out when I saw you wrote this. Who the hell are you, then, if you believe this stuff, or act like this in real life. Was this a drunken or bitter piece of fiction/rant?

Speechless. Would not know where to start.

GOTCHA !! (Though I sure didn't expect anyone, much less you, to be so gullible).

The second part of the post is from Stanley Ellin's A question of value wherein a man who just turned down a quarter million dollar bribe is killed by a young punk he has just rescued from drowning in a flash flood. Turned down a fortune, but killed for sixty dollars by an ungrateful punk kid. And never saw it coming.

The first part is a distillation of the way Gypsies are brought up. You didn't steal it, he gave it to you. Gypsies are encouraged to fight, the winner is always right. Don't be a serf, bound by land, morals, laws etc, be a Man of the World.

There is a you tube video showing an American tourist losing hsi wallet and confronting the Gypsy pickpocket who only backs off wheb he realizes the American knows how to fight and won't bend down to retrieve his wallet when teh Gypsy is withhin striking distance. It shows cunning and fightin skill and complete lack of morality.

As to lying in real life.. i have the exact opposite of a poker face. Alas. I'd probably return the moneybefore I knew what I was doing.

As to fighting in real life... well I once saved a friends life by standing in the way of a charging biker and ordering him to holster that knife and back up into the apartment. Fortunately the biker was too hung over to realize the black handled and metal tipped grip strenthener I was aiming at him was not a pistol.
And I once was riding shotgun for a woman and jumped out of the car, adopted a shooting stance and displayed my black electric hair dryer. I'm glad the irate road rager backed down because I don't know what I could have done if he had decided to make it his tire iron against me and my hair dryer. This might show courage or stupidity but not really fighting skill. I don't have any.

As for 'drunken'... would that I could master arithmetic and Basic Strategy then perhaps I could afford some booze.

Next time I'll be sure to use sarcasm and creative writing tags. Didn't expect anyone to actually fall for it.

The attitudes set forth do have some worth in artificial intelligence and greedy algorithms and perhaps in real life if you are a Gypsy or a politician, but other than that ... its entertainment.

The old lady thing is a good example to fine tune this subject.
Would a good person really pull the ticket and stick it in their purse, knowing it's a winning amount and start playing on the game? A good person I submit would immediately take the ticket to the cashier and hand it over with the machine location and time she found it.

Why put it in the purse? Did you somehow verify you were the owner of the ticket? Why did she hand it back so easily?
Did she feel she got caught? Why conceal something that isn't yours. I bet FACE would have some interesting remarks about her conduct.

So, what looks like a good person, could have been neutral, or bad. Grandmas can be bad and evil too.

Those who've been around a while will remember the Hot Blond Challenge. And should remember that I welshed to the tune of 100.00. However, I found that act difficult to live with so I came back later and sent her a PM and made arrangements to pay her the money that was rightfully hers.

I'm probably neutral but good Is better. Because I tried to cheat her and I couldn't do it. I don't participate here too much so having to hide my online status wasn't going to kill me. But it felt good to finally pay her.

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Be a man of the world; not a serf. A man of the world has never stolen anything in his life. A man of the world has never lied in his life. A man of te world has never trusted anyone in his life. A man of the world has never had any doubts in his life. A man of the world takes, he does not give.

And your man of the world dies a shriveled, empty charade of a human being, very very alone.

Goodness is the only investment which never fails.
-- Henry David Thoreau

Quote: MathExtremist

A lot of this comes down to brain chemistry and biology. Some people's minds are simply wired differently than the majority, but of course it's the majority who inherently create moral norms. So "antisocial personality disorder" (a.k.a. psychopathy) is classed as a disorder by virtue of statistics -- it's less prevalent than the way most people's brains work, which is as social creatures who tend to care about the feelings and well-being of others.

Yes. Think of styles of life and war amongst Indians and Trappers. There was no tradition of respect for an enemy. You killed from ambush, a white flag meant nothing but cowardice. And trappers who considered themselves to be civilized Frenchmen would still buy and sell female captives when they were Indian country rather than Canada.

Hollywood is full of Reform School Boy and Rich Kid's School. Not just the Lonliness of the Long Distance Runner wherein the borstal boy stops short of the finish line for revenge against the world but where values and experiences are simply different.

I think nutrition plays a role too. The lower classes have more experience with pathogens and pathogens mutate when a host is not well fed, so it is possible to look at twin adoptees who grow up in different neighborhoods as different people. Its not just education and experiences, but brain chemistry.

Quote: Wizard

Let's assume there is no heaven, no karma, and no afterlife. What you see now is all there is.

Question 1: Are you good, neutral, or bad?
Question 2: Is it better, in the long run, to be good, neutral, or bad? By "better," I mean better for yourself.

How do you define being good or bad? .

No Karma, Heaven, Hell or Afterlife? This means you have no repercussions for your actions that you do and nobody rewards or punishes you in this life unless someone of authority catches you or sees your good deed to reward you. So you can do anything you want. You can be Hitler or Hitler Like in this life and if you don't get caught you don't have to pay for anything you have done, right or wrong according to the laws of your land. So as long as I don't get caught I can be as "bad" as I want and nothing happens. Of course I can be as "good" as I want and I may or may not get a reward when people see my deeds. My point is that if you have no Afterlife... I see no point in right or wrong or good or evil. No point in anything really. So you can be Hitler and die and your worm food or you can be some Saint and you die and you get the same reward as Hitler... Your worm food.

The long run wouldn't matter if you are stating that there is no Afterlife because in the long run nothing matters because your just worm food in the long run. This question only works if you have some sort of an Afterlife. This is because once again if you have no Afterlife that means that every human ever born gets the same exact ending. The only difference is that some people will have better food or lodging for x amount of time before they become worm food like everyone else.

A better poll would be... why do so many so called gamblers or ap's on this site think they are some sort of upstanding young citizen and moral person who would never lie, cheat or steal? Most of us spend most of our time in Casinos which basically means "Life of Sin". I am tired of people living in this underground type of life and trying to think or portray that they are some sort of godly moral church going person. This lifestyle is Lie, Cheat and Steal and the sooner that you suckers understand that the sooner you won't get hustled as much or hustled at all because you'll be the one doing the hustling.

Quote: MathExtremist

So "antisocial personality disorder" (a.k.a. psychopathy) is classed as a disorder by virtue of statistics -- it's less prevalent than the way most people's brains work, which is as social creatures who tend to care about the feelings and well-being of others. Consider that if the majority of humans acted antisocially (and you were one of them), you wouldn't even have asked your question.


But someone who literally cannot care (not merely does not care) about the emotions or well-being of others, they'd likely not look the gift horse in the mouth and accept the free wine. Are they "bad"? Or just "different"?

Great post. I always thought this was different from psychopathy whatever reason.

One thing the wiki says is that these people often have substance abuse issues, family dysfunction and a lot of other problems.

Romantic love and real friendship are very pleasant things to experience. Epicurus, who believed that we should strive for a pleasurable (though not hedonistic) existence said, "of all the things which wisdom provides for the happiness of the whole life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friendship."

This isn't just because friendship makes us feel nice, but also because it provides us with a lot of emotional and practical security. (Oddly enough, He and others like him say that, when a friend dies we should get over it quickly and just find a new one.)

On the bigger scale, if we were all psychopaths, we wouldn't get very far. We can identify cases where social norms are more brutal, but they always occur in societies or situations that few of us would want to be a part of.

I'm not sure that a completely fulfilled psychopath, one who becomes a successful politician or businessman for example, has a bad life. But those are the best outcomes. And I'd say that a "good person" who has the best possible outcomes for their life, will probably have a better life than their psychopathic counterpart.

So I think psychopathy can safely be seen as something like a disorder.

Quote: monet0412

No Karma, Heaven, Hell or Afterlife? This means you have no repercussions for your actions that you do and nobody rewards or punishes you in this life unless someone of authority catches you or sees your good deed to reward you...

There are PLENTY of repercussions for ones actions. How did it work out for Hitler to be Hitler?

The disconnect is doing anything that you consider "bad" will inevitably get you "caught." I'm not saying to do it, but think about it... If you were to go try to kill 100 people, my money would be on your either landing your butt in jail for life or you dying. Seems like repercussions to me.

The opposite spin is good repercussions. When someone does something nice, if it doesn't go unnoticed it touches other people. If you see someone up in front of you hold a door open for someone, maybe it'll make you think about holding the door for the person behind you.

Quote: Wizard

Coincidentally, since I started the cooperation game, I had a locked mountain bike stolen worth about $1,000 and somebody who I thought was a friend scammed me out $5,000 to $10,000

Sorry to hear it. Can you shrug and put it into perspective?

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How about this. Let's assume there is no heaven, no karma, and no afterlife. What you see now is all there is.

That is so.

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Question 1: Are you good, neutral, or bad?

Good. Somewhat amoral, but good.

Quote:

Question 2: Is it better, in the long run, to be good, neutral, or bad? By "better," I mean better for yourself.

Yes. So long as I have ample sufficiency, I see no urge to step on others.

Quote:

How about this -- You buy something at a small business and pay with a $10 bill. They give you back change for a $20.

No question. Square it. If they reject the gesture donate the extra.

... Except if I'm overpaid at Blackjack. My conscience seldom allows me to grass up the dealer for his mistake. To me a mispay is part of the game.

Quote: Romes

There are PLENTY of repercussions for ones actions. How did it work out for Hitler to be Hitler?

The disconnect is doing anything that you consider "bad" will inevitably get you "caught." I'm not saying to do it, but think about it... If you were to go try to kill 100 people, my money would be on your either landing your butt in jail for life or you dying. Seems like repercussions to me.

The opposite spin is good repercussions. When someone does something nice, if it doesn't go unnoticed it touches other people. If you see someone up in front of you hold a door open for someone, maybe it'll make you think about holding the door for the person behind you.

My point is that it turns out the same for Hitler as it does for the rest of us if you have no sort of Afterlife. You die and your worm food and nobody cares after 1000s of years. Heck we had tyrants just as bad as Hitler or worse all through history but over time nobody seems to care except for some history professors of course.

Also spending a thousand dollars on a mountain bike? I do not think that the average working stiff who works hard, pays the bills, doesn't lie, cheat, or steal, goes to church and lives to only do good to others and never bad to anyone can even relate to such a luxury. As a matter of fact... the average working stiff might be upset that some people can afford a thousand dollars for a bike when they are having a hard time putting food on the table. Some working stiffs might even be happy that people who can throw a dime on a bike got what they deserved.

Of course I can relate because I blow through thousands of dollars on a daily basis when I am losing and spend money like its going out of style no matter what :)

Oddly enough I just got approved for another 6 months of Nevada Free Play so I guess I would be in the "Bad" Category if we had a Good or Bad or Neutral Category, which we don't because we have already established that we have no afterlife which means we can't have good, bad, ugly or neutral because we all get the same reward for our life and deeds!!