## Poll

16 votes (40%) | |||

1 vote (2.5%) | |||

19 votes (47.5%) | |||

2 votes (5%) | |||

1 vote (2.5%) | |||

3 votes (7.5%) | |||

2 votes (5%) | |||

4 votes (10%) | |||

6 votes (15%) | |||

5 votes (12.5%) |

**40 members have voted**

If I were half my age I probably would have put this to the test by betting on even until the ball landed in zero and then called gaming after the ball landed in zero and I wasn't paid. Of course I would lose but sometimes you have to fight on principle.

However, at the age of 51 I think I'm past such antics. Nevertheless, I would challenge any of our cocky younger members to give it a try. I would certainly volunteer to be an expert witness on the nature of the evenness of the number zero.

Video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t1TC-5OLdM.

The question for the poll is what kind of number is zero?

Several years ago, I played my $10 "direct bet" coupon on even at Caesar's in Atlantic City (the only bets allowed for that coupon in roulette were red or even.) The ball landed on 0, and the dealer paid my bet. I looked confused because he didn't not pay me and take my coupon or call it a push or pay my coupon half, and he said, "You won!" Both dealers agreed that I had won. I should have asked them to explain.

Whether the casino roulette green zero is an even number is a different question. The "Even" bet does not mean "mathematically even." It means "even, as the casino defines it." We all know that reality, inside a casino, is what the casino says it is.

Perhaps the most powerful argument for zero NOT being an even number in Casino World is that if it was, then 00 would, logically, have to be an even number as well. Perhaps the 0 and 00 spaces should be replaced with a green star and a blue star, and you could bet on either star or both. But the traditions of roulette are too entrenched for that.

Quote:JoeshlabotnikThe definition of an even number is one that divided by two, leaves no remainder. Zero divided by two equals zero, with no remainder. So it is unequivocally an even number.

Agreed. There are other tests of evenness and zero passes them too.

Quote:Whether the casino roulette green zero is an even number is a different question. The "Even" bet does not mean "mathematically even." It means "even, as the casino defines it." We all know that reality, inside a casino, is what the casino says it is.

Yes, I'm sure the casino would argue that, and the argument has some merit. I think one might say that at the time roulette was invented, zero was incorrectly thought of as neither even nor odd.

Quote:Perhaps the most powerful argument for zero NOT being an even number in Casino World is that if it was, then 00 would, logically, have to be an even number as well. Perhaps the 0 and 00 spaces should be replaced with a green star and a blue star, and you could bet on either star or both. But the traditions of roulette are too entrenched for that.

Yes, I thought of the double-zero argument as well. I've never heard of a "double zero" except in roulette. It does bolster the argument that both the single zero and double zero refer to the numerals and not a mathematical quantity.

I've said all along that the casino would very likely win such a dispute, and am not even saying they shouldn't. Just that I think an argument could be made the other way too and it would be interesting to see the debate play out. Might even make the mainstream media.

Zip, nada, nuttin'.

The void before creation.

Hence, if one called DRich 'a big zero' it should be considered an insult ;-)

However, if one called DRich 'a little zero', well, that might be even more insulting.

So if there is a difference between a big zero and a little zero,

I may have made a mistake in my initial statement.

Back to the chalkboard.....

So far, I have discovered that one calling DRich 'a big zero' is no more insulting than two calling DRich 'a big zero'. I'll keep you informed;-)

I could have used Joeshlabotnik for the illustration.

But I'm saving him for the discussion of negative numbers ;-)

Or maybe for odd numbers.

Definitely not for the discussion of zero.

There is definitely something there.

Some things are hard to quantify when you are a low intellect flyover state resident.

If you called gaming the reply would be along the lines of, "No, even does not pay on zero, and I don't have Prince Albert in a can, either. Go back to your homework!"

In Craps, the 12 is paid double or triple in the field because the rules state as such. That is an instance in the players favor. It works both ways with printed rules.

Quote:darkozIn Craps, the 12 is paid double or triple in the field because the rules state as such. That is an instance in the players favor. It works both ways with printed rules.

In Vegas few roulette tables have the rule where you lose only half on even money bets if the ball lands in zero. So I would agree I would have a lousy case in Atlantic City, because the rules already specifically address what happens on an even bet and the ball lands in either zero. You own't see that in Vegas except on some high limit tables with the "half back" rule.

You might consider the topic of basketball jerseys.Quote:WizardI've never heard of a "double zero" except in roulette.

In high school, the NCAA, and the NBA, a team is allowed to have a player with a jersey number of either 0 or 00 but not players with each of those numbers. I have seen scoreboards (the kind that also list individual statistics during a game) which seem to have the shortcoming of only being able to display 0 or 00 without regard for which version the player was really wearing. Incidentally, there have been some well-known players that wore 00, including Robert Parish of the Boston Celtics.

Neither 0 nor 00 is allowed in the NFL, though they were once permitted.

So, "00" is not really unique to roulette.

Quote:Doc

Neither 0 nor 00 is allowed in the NFL, though they were once permitted.

So, "00" is not really unique to roulette.

Shame. Wonder when they banned it?

Killary Rodham Clinton, commenting on if zero is an even number

1 odd, 2 even, 3 odd, zero even, -1 odd, -2 even, -3 odd,

I think the problem is the definition for odd or even was defined assuming zero was neither and we're forgetting that. I think the whole argument zero is even is based on a fallacy we're blinded to being influenced by the video. I think others would agree dividing by 2 must also give you a different number for the number to be even and zero can't do that. Math is supposed to help understand the universe and not to define it.

Quote:onenickelmiracleIf zero is an even number, there would be more even numbers than odd or then again, maybe not.

What about all the numbers in between whole integers? i.e. 1.234, 2.5487, 3.654, etc. Are these odd or even?

Quote:AZDuffmanShame. Wonder when they banned it?Quote:DocNeither 0 nor 00 is allowed in the NFL, though they were once permitted.

So, "00" is not really unique to roulette.

According to the ever-reliable Wikipedia, which has that whole page devoted to sports jersey numbers:

Quote:Numbers 0 and 00 are no longer allowed, but they were issued in the NFL before the number standardization in 1973. George Plimpton wore 0 during a brief preseason stint at quarterback for the Detroit Lions. Jim Otto ("aught-oh") wore number "00" during most of his career with the Oakland Raiders. Wide receiver Ken Burrough of the Houston Oilers also wore "00" during his NFL career in the 1970s.

I believe there is an infinite amount, but half should be even and half odd. I think they can be ignored.Quote:IbeatyouracesWhat about all the numbers in between whole integers? i.e. 1.234, 2.5487, 3.654, etc. Are these odd or even?

Check the Nevada Gaming rules for Roulette. It probably specifies that "Even" is any of "2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36" and that "Odd" is any of "1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31,33,35". And I say that, not that they do it to avoid the whole "Is zero even" question, but because they tend to be anal about these sort of things.Quote:WizardHowever, if you bet on even in roulette, and the ball lands in zero, the casino would take your money.

But just to play Devil's Advocate for a sec, if zero is even, what's double zero? Seems to me that single zero is odd because there's only one of them, and double zero is even, etc.

Quote:IbeatyouracesWorst case scenario for casinos is they have to change 0 & 00 to X & XX.

I was thinking that the worst case scenario would be that the zero and double zero are considered "even" when the debate is brought to Gaming and some multi-million dollar compensation would have to be paid by casinos for all the bets they didn't pay through all the years.

Shows what happens when you spend all of junior high math class staring at Mary Jane Johnson's tits.

But if that case is ever brought before Gaming, I'll be sure to testify that I saw you place $10,000 on "even" at the Platinum Palace and you didn't get paid when 0 came up. If you'll do the same for me, that is.

Quote:JoeshlabotnikNo, the worst case scenario is right here: eight people so far have voted that zero is neither even nor odd.

I just voted and made it nine. I want to feel included amongst the people you talk down to. Feeling inferior is one of my few attributes, so I needed the boost to my self esteem.

Quote:bobbartopI just voted and made it nine. I want to feel included amongst the people you talk down to. Feeling inferior is one of my few attributes, so I needed the boost to my self esteem.

I pushed it to 10 so it would be even.

Quote:gamerfreakI pushed it to 10 so it would be even.

that's funny :-)

I think he is just a computer program.Quote:bobbartopI just voted and made it nine. I want to feel included amongst the people you talk down to. Feeling inferior is one of my few attributes, so I needed the boost to my self esteem.

Quote:TomGZero is even, according to everyone who is smarter than I am. From now on I will use my match plays and free bets on 'Even' in roulette and when 0 hits I will ask why I'm not getting paid.

Good for you! Let me know what they say.

neither and bothQuote:IbeatyouracesNext question, is zero + or -?

Not sure about gaming regs but may be negative EV to try to prove it otherwise unless a big enough bet "lost". LOL

But I also defer to the math geniuses (and support my position) with this link:

mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57188.html

That Zero is indeed an even number.

Quote:MJGolfI'm sure Wiz would agree that in all our "basic" math classes, zero was defined or considered an "even" number.

Yes. Coincidentally, my 10-year-old daughter recently learned this in school.

Is i an even number?

Is it true that 0! =1 ? I mean, really?

What about pi factorial? (3.14159....) ! Is it really equal to 7.188 . . . . . ?

Quote:gordonm888What about pi factorial? (3.14159....) ! Is it really equal to 7.188 . . . . . ?

according to this online calculator it is 7.183824937508157

http://web2.0calc.com/

Yes, zero is even by definition. The even numbers E are defined as all integers of the form 2n where n is any integer. 0 is an integer, so 2*0 is even.Quote:MJGolfI'm sure Wiz would agree that in all our "basic" math classes, zero was defined or considered an "even" number.

Not sure about gaming regs but may be negative EV to try to prove it otherwise unless a big enough bet "lost". LOL

But I also defer to the math geniuses (and support my position) with this link:

mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57188.html

That Zero is indeed an even number.

The fact that 0 is not even in roulette is simply an artifact of the game, not a mathematical paradox. It's like how 12 is greater than 9 numerically but not in baccarat, or how J, K, Q are in order alphabetically but not in poker. It's just a different yardstick. The yardstick for all integers (or just even integers) is not the same yardstick as the one printed circularly on the roulette wheel, even if it uses some of the same symbols.

Quote:gordonm888Is 1 a prime number?

Is i an even number?

Is it true that 0! =1 ? I mean, really?

What about pi factorial? (3.14159....) ! Is it really equal to 7.188 . . . . . ?

Yup:

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gamma(pi%2B1)

Except normally for non-integers you'd use the gamma function rather than the factorial. See here:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GammaFunction.html

And because gamma(1) = 1, and gamma(n) = (n-1)!, 0! = 1.

(i is not even because it's not an integer, and 1 is not prime because it has only one unique integral factor. For more fun with primes, http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PrimeNumber.html)

Yes, zero is even by definition. The even numbers E are defined as all integers of the form 2n where n is any integer. 0 is an integer, so 2*0 is even.Quote:MathExtremistThat Zero is indeed an even number.

You're absolutely right. Here is a source:

Quote:Wolfram MathWorldAn even number is an integer of the form n=2k, where k is an integer. The even numbers are therefore ..., -4, -2, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, ...

Source

Quote:The fact that 0 is not even in roulette is simply an artifact of the game, not a mathematical paradox. It's like how 12 is greater than 9 numerically but not in baccarat, or how J, K, Q are in order alphabetically but not in poker. It's just a different yardstick. The yardstick for all integers (or just even integers) is not the same yardstick as the one printed circularly on the roulette wheel, even if it uses some of the same symbols.

One could easily produce rules for baccarat that explain how you look at the terminal digit for the points. The order of cards in poker is stated in hundreds of sources. However, I've checked some gaming guides for details on the Even bet and they just say it pays 1 to 1, not what causes it to win.

Now, how about signing up for the Cooperation Game?

New Jersey regs explicitly say that zero (or double zero) cause the Even bet to lose:Quote:WizardOne could easily produce rules for baccarat that explain how you look at the terminal digit for the points. The order of cards in poker is stated in hundreds of sources. However, I've checked some gaming guides for details on the Even bet and they just say it pays 1 to 1, not what causes it to win.

despite then saying that ""Even" is a wager that the roulette ball will come to rest in any compartment of the roulette wheel that corresponds to an even number. "Quote:DGE Chapter 69F: 13:69F-5.2 Roulette: payout odds(b) When roulette is played on a double zero wheel and the roulette ball

comes to rest in a compartment marked zero (0) or double zero (00), a player shall lose,

at the casino licensee’s option, either one-half of each wager on red, black, odd, even, 1

to 18, and 19 to 36 or the entire wager. If the former option is chosen by a casino

licensee, the remaining half of each such wager shall be returned to the player by the

dealer. Each casino licensee offering double zero roulette shall provide notice of the

option in effect at the table in accordance with the provisions of N.J.A.C. 13:69F-8.3.

(c) When roulette is played on a single zero wheel and the roulette ball

comes to rest in a compartment marked zero (0), wagers on red, black, odd, even, 1 to

18, and 19 to 36 shall be lost.

Quote:NJ regsat the casino licensee’s option, either one-half of each wager on red, black, odd, even, 1

to 18, and 19 to 36 or the entire wager.

I didn't know that they had a choice in the matter. Seems at every AC casino you lose half on even money bets when the ball lands in a zero. Then again, I haven't been there in at least 15 years.

You can't use a number to denote the absence of all numbers, because you would have at least 1 number represented by the number your using to denote the absence of all numbers. That would be like using an apple to represent that you have no apples. "This apple here represents that we have no apples". -- "Excuse me Professor, don't you have 1 apple there?".

It's just stupid, and easily avoidable by not calling 0 a number. If 0 is not a number, but rather a lack of numbers, then there is no problem. There's loads of problems that an inquisitive 12 year old can cause if 0 is considered a number.

So, back to your Roulette question, grab that cocky kid and have at it, he'll have loads of support from the present math community (not the historic ones), but if he takes it to court he still won't win the case --- Everybody knows zero's not a number.

Quote:JyBrd0403If you consider 0 an integer and a number, what symbol and word do you now want to use to denote the absence of an integer or number?

Somebody suggested before the problem could be avoided if they used a star or a joker instead of a zero, which I agree with.

I'm still looking for a volunteer to make a case out of this. I'll cover any gambling losses while waiting for the zero.

Quote:WizardSomebody suggested before the problem could be avoided if they used a star or a joker instead of a zero, which I agree with.

I'm still looking for a volunteer to make a case out of this. I'll cover any gambling losses while waiting for the zero.

Ooh, pick me, pick me. I've never been thrown out of a casino.

Would the experiment have to be conducted in a Vegas casino, or just in any casino?

It would cost, on average, one bet to wait for a 0 or 00 to come up, and two bets for specifically 0, right? So this could be a $10 experiment at any Strip casino.

Quote:JyBrd0403If you consider 0 an integer and a number, what symbol and word do you now want to use to denote the absence of an integer or number?

Not sure about mathematics, but this is called a null value in computer science, and how that is symbolized can vary between programming languages.

Quote:gamerfreakNot sure about mathematics, but this is called a null value in computer science, and how that is symbolized can vary between programming languages.

It's also called that in mathematics, and in many other sciences as well. It's the absence of a value, with the recognition that zero IS a numerical value and thus, a null is something different.

In the physical sciences, you could be measuring for an effect, quantity, etc. and get either a zero or null value. A zero would mean that the measurement was made, and the measured amount was zero. A null would mean that the measurement couldn't be made, for whatever reason.

And here is the initial player inventory from the 1984 Infocom game "A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy":

>inventory

You have:

a splitting headache

no tea

Quote:WizardSomebody suggested before the problem could be avoided if they used a star or a joker instead of a zero, which I agree with.

I'm still looking for a volunteer to make a case out of this. I'll cover any gambling losses while waiting for the zero.

I lost $10k. Where's my money?

Quote:JoeshlabotnikOoh, pick me, pick me. I've never been thrown out of a casino.

Would the experiment have to be conducted in a Vegas casino, or just in any casino?

It would cost, on average, one bet to wait for a 0 or 00 to come up, and two bets for specifically 0, right? So this could be a $10 experiment at any Strip casino.

Anybody could do this on their own but I am only offering to help if it is done in Vegas.

If we waited for a single-zero on a double-zero wheel, at $10 a bet, the expected loss would be $19.99.

Quote:JyBrd0403If you consider 0 an integer and a number, what symbol and word do you now want to use to denote the absence of an integer or number?

Good question. Would the answer to 0^0 fit this description? If not, the answer to what question would be such a void?