The Greatest Athlete / Comic Debate (Split from "How'd You Pick Your Username)
Quote: Lemieux66I just choose my favorite and the best hockey player of all time.
Hmmm... nothing in the rules about sacrilege. I suppose I'll put this away... for now...
I got my eye on you, friend o.O
Quote: FaceHmmm... nothing in the rules about sacrilege. I suppose I'll put this away... for now...
I got my eye on you, friend o.O
Who do you think is the best?
Quote: Lemieux66Quote: FaceHmmm... nothing in the rules about sacrilege. I suppose I'll put this away... for now...
I got my eye on you, friend o.O
Who do you think is the best?
Well, I think number 99 would have to be the first player to come to mind. What Tiger has done for PGA tour golf, so did Gretzky for modern hockey.
Lemieux was a great player, no argument there. But not great enough to surpass Gretzky.
Like most sports, it is hard to compare greats from different eras. Orr, Hull, Howe, Richard all have impressive resumes.
Quote: Lemieux66
Who do you think is the best?
To be clear, I wasn't ragging on your opinion. We're all allowed ours here, and he can be your favorite with no issue whatsoever =)
But this site demands facts, and when all of Lemieux's stats include the sentence fragment "...second only to Gretzky", it becomes all but impossible to defend your title of "best". The best isn't compared to anyone, he is the one being compared to.
Howe vs Gretzky, now that's a good discussion as they were two vastly different players playing in two vastly different leagues. One has room to argue what stats mattered and what kind of hockey player was best for its time. But Mario and Wayne were the same type of player playing at the same time. And only one of them had their number retired throughout the entire league. Only one of them required the very rules to be changed to counteract his dominance. Only one is referred to as "The Great One".
Gretzky > Lemieux, and it's not even close.
P.S. - In case your newness to the forum leaves you wondering, this is all in jest. I'm just messing with you ;)
P.P.S. - My favorite players include Roy, Housley, Roenick, just about any recognizable name from the 90s. Favorite of all time goes to Tie Domi. So what do I know? ;)
Quote: Lemieux66I just choose my favorite and the best hockey player of all time.
Then shouldn't your name be Orr4?
Quote: Lemieux66I just choose my favorite and the best hockey player of all time.
For me it would be #9 mr. Hockey. Got to see him in the WHA and in his final season with the Hartford ne New England Whalers. A lotta young bucks back then crunchin him, and still played well... at age 50 !, and with his kids Mark and Marty. And in the FWIW dept. My Whalers Captain's Cup... Joel Quennevillle, Ron Francis, Dave Tippett. This is Hartford Whaler Hockey, where dad and the kids watch a hockey game, and mom goes shopping in the mall. Gotta love it.
Quote: FaceTo be clear, I wasn't ragging on your opinion. We're all allowed ours here, and he can be your favorite with no issue whatsoever =)
But this site demands facts, and when all of Lemieux's stats include the sentence fragment "...second only to Gretzky", it becomes all but impossible to defend your title of "best". The best isn't compared to anyone, he is the one being compared to.
Howe vs Gretzky, now that's a good discussion as they were two vastly different players playing in two vastly different leagues. One has room to argue what stats mattered and what kind of hockey player was best for its time. But Mario and Wayne were the same type of player playing at the same time. And only one of them had their number retired throughout the entire league. Only one of them required the very rules to be changed to counteract his dominance. Only one is referred to as "The Great One".
Gretzky > Lemieux, and it's not even close.
P.S. - In case your newness to the forum leaves you wondering, this is all in jest. I'm just messing with you ;)
P.P.S. - My favorite players include Roy, Housley, Roenick, just about any recognizable name from the 90s. Favorite of all time goes to Tie Domi. So what do I know? ;)
A lot of people make this mistake. They only compare numbers and completely leave out situation.
Mario Lemieux: GP: 915 Goals: 690 Assists: 1033 PPG: 1.89. In the seasons that he played, he missed 496 games as well as three full seasons in between.
http://m.hkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXlXXlemiema01.html&t=0
Wayne Gretzky: GP: 1487 Goals: 894 Assists: 1963 PPG: 1.92. In the seasons that Wayne played, he missed 178 games. Not only that, but Gretzky also had much better teams over all and that Wayne being healthy and Mario being healthy were different deals. Mario needed guys to tie his skates at times. So if you take all this data, it's really clear that Mario was better. I mean there shouldn't be a debate.
Quote: Lemieux66I mean there shouldn't be a debate.
You're right. When all major network announcers, the majority of hockey fans, the NHL themselves, and any random person you ask on the street says there is only one greatest and he is the Great One, there is no debate. Only when a hard core fan comes in with their "but-but-but"s do we have to go through it all again.
Look, to me, Barry Sanders is the greatest runner to ever touch a football. The greatest of all time, bar none, in the history of the universe. There's has been none better before him, after him, and I doubt there ever will be. But he still ranks lower than Payton, Smith, and a handful of other guys. I could argue that he was on the Lions, a horrendous team by any account, and still put up those numbers. I could argue that he quit perfectly healthy after 10th season where he put up the same numbers that he came into the league with (ie stunning), and he was still in his prime. I could argue this, that, and the other thing, but the fact remains; he wasn't the best of all time.
Just like Sanders, Lemieux was undeniably one of the great ones, one of the greatest players who ever lived, whose stats may well stand long after he's dead and gone. Maybe he had more hurdles, both physical and team based. Maybe he had a tougher schedule. Maybe the ice in Pittsburgh was soft and maybe his wife was a nag. But at the end of the day, it's the numbers you put up and your effect on the league which separates the "greats" from the "also rans".
Lemieux was great, a member of a list of greats, an honor by any measure. But there is only one greatest. He is the Great One.
Quote: Lemieux66A lot of people make this mistake. They only compare numbers and completely leave out situation.
Mario Lemieux: GP: 915 Goals: 690 Assists: 1033 PPG: 1.89. In the seasons that he played, he missed 496 games as well as three full seasons in between.
http://m.hkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXlXXlemiema01.html&t=0
Wayne Gretzky: GP: 1487 Goals: 894 Assists: 1963 PPG: 1.92. In the seasons that Wayne played, he missed 178 games. Not only that, but Gretzky also had much better teams over all and that Wayne being healthy and Mario being healthy were different deals. Mario needed guys to tie his skates at times. So if you take all this data, it's really clear that Mario was better. I mean there shouldn't be a debate.
Are you in Pittsburgh? If so you should join us at the get together this weekend.
Face, ever hear of Jim Brown? And an even greater man after he retired from football.
Jim Brown accomplished these records despite never playing past 29 years of age.
Brown led the league in rushing a record eight times.
He told me, 'Make sure when anyone tackles you he remembers how much it hurts.' He lived by that philosophy and I always followed that advice.
—John Mackey, 1999
The only top-ten all-time rusher who even approaches Brown’s totals, Barry Sanders, posted a career average of 99.8 yards per game and 5.0 yards per carry. However, Barry Sanders’ father, William, was frequently quoted as saying that Jim Brown was “the best I’ve ever seen.”[26]
Quote: GWAEAre you in Pittsburgh? If so you should join us at the get together this weekend.
Nah born and raised in NYC. Just a giant Pens fan my whole life.
Quote: FaceYou're right. When all major network announcers, the majority of hockey fans, the NHL themselves, and any random person you ask on the street says there is only one greatest and he is the Great One, there is no debate. Only when a hard core fan comes in with their "but-but-but"s do we have to go through it all again.
Look, to me, Barry Sanders is the greatest runner to ever touch a football. The greatest of all time, bar none, in the history of the universe. There's has been none better before him, after him, and I doubt there ever will be. But he still ranks lower than Payton, Smith, and a handful of other guys. I could argue that he was on the Lions, a horrendous team by any account, and still put up those numbers. I could argue that he quit perfectly healthy after 10th season where he put up the same numbers that he came into the league with (ie stunning), and he was still in his prime. I could argue this, that, and the other thing, but the fact remains; he wasn't the best of all time.
Just like Sanders, Lemieux was undeniably one of the great ones, one of the greatest players who ever lived, whose stats may well stand long after he's dead and gone. Maybe he had more hurdles, both physical and team based. Maybe he had a tougher schedule. Maybe the ice in Pittsburgh was soft and maybe his wife was a nag. But at the end of the day, it's the numbers you put up and your effect on the league which separates the "greats" from the "also rans".
Lemieux was great, a member of a list of greats, an honor by any measure. But there is only one greatest. He is the Great One.
If you only account for pure numbers without situation, it's flawed logic. Bad logic even.
Quote: Lemieux66If you only account for pure numbers without situation, it's flawed logic. Bad logic even.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with that statement.
You can ONLY judge on what is, not on what might have been. Otherwise, you then need to start bringing in who was more valuable to their team. Mario was injured and missed some prime years. Cold fact was he was getting paid and not producing anything for the team. Wayne went to LA in the end of his career, and was responsible for how many ticket sales? He was way more valuable to the Kings at that point. But this is all a silly argument.
Mario may have been able to put up the top numbers, but bottom line is he is still second in stats.
You can only judge and rank on what is, not on what could have been.
Quote: RaleighCrapsSorry, but I have to disagree with that statement.
You can ONLY judge on what is, not on what might have been. Otherwise, you then need to start bringing in who was more valuable to their team. Mario was injured and missed some prime years. Cold fact was he was getting paid and not producing anything for the team. Wayne went to LA in the end of his career, and was responsible for how many ticket sales? He was way more valuable to the Kings at that point. But this is all a silly argument.
You can only judge and rank on what is, not on what could have been.
Why do ticket sales matter when it comes to who was the better player? And even if I played along, I can point out that LA is a far bigger market than Pittsburgh and LA fans are notoriously bandwagon.
Quote: Lemieux66Why do ticket sales matter when it comes to who was the better player? And even if I played along, I can point out that LA is a far bigger market than Pittsburgh and LA fans are notoriously bandwagon.
They matter because I said if we were going to rate on things other than what was, I was adding in who was most valuable to their team. Wayne drove massive ticket sales, which brought in huge revenue to the Kings. I have even seen it argued that Wayne was a major reason why there is hockey in the west and south west (LA and Phoenix). I'm sure ML was responsible for a lot of fannies in Pitt as well, although there have been a lot of strong players along side of Mario, so the tix sales may have been the same either way.
We could go on for days with this discussion. As Face said, I don't need to try and make you change your view, but in the same vein, there is no argument you can produce (unless you come up with one that I haven't yet heard) which is going to change my view.
The FAA air marshal is probably going to bust this hijacking any minute, now that she is online......... ;-)
Quote: RaleighCrapsThey matter because I said if we were going to rate on things other than what was, I was adding in who was most valuable to their team. Wayne drove massive ticket sales, which brought in huge revenue to the Kings. I have even seen it argued that Wayne was a major reason why there is hockey in the west and south west (LA and Phoenix). I'm sure ML was responsible for a lot of fannies in Pitt as well, although there have been a lot of strong players along side of Mario, so the tix sales may have been the same either way.
We could go on for days with this discussion. As Face said, I don't need to try and make you change your view, but in the same vein, there is no argument you can produce (unless you come up with one that I haven't yet heard) which is going to change my view.
The FAA air marshal is probably going to bust this hijacking any minute, now that she is online......... ;-)
I don't think there's anything else to bring to bring to the table. I mean, I would take Gretzky on my team if I could lol
Quote: BuzzardAnd this from another observer :
The only top-ten all-time rusher who even approaches Brown’s totals, Barry Sanders, posted a career average of 99.8 yards per game and 5.0 yards per carry. However, Barry Sanders’ father, William, was frequently quoted as saying that Jim Brown was “the best I’ve ever seen.”[26]
Its late in the sidetrack, but I would like to opine that Jim Brown was the best rusher I ever saw. Barry Sanders could just escape like a magician, and Walter Payton stands between them. Sanders retired not wanting to break Sweetness' record, an homage to greatness, I will say this about these three and one O.J. Simpson, the D knows they're getting the ball, nearly every play, and always when it counts.
I would say the same of Lemieux, Gretzky, Howe, and Messier.
But I admire him most for his work with gangs in inner cities. I remember when Magic Johnson was going to bring movies theaters into black neighborhoods. And Montel William was going to work for black communities after his TV show. Now I see those two guys doing TV commercials for Rent-A-Centers and Pay Day loans.
Richard Pryor used to do a hilarious bit about Jim Brown. Will try and find it.
GOT IT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6e1sP7v_hk
Quote: BuzzardRichard Pryor used to do a hilarious bit about Jim Brown. Will try and find it.
GOT IT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6e1sP7v_hk
Richard Pryor was indisputably the greatest comedian of all time. Anyone who believes otherwise is wrong.
Quote: gpac1377Richard Pryor was indisputably the greatest comedian of all time. Anyone who believes otherwise is wrong.
Gpac, that's ridiculous. George Carlin was the greatest of all time. It's true, he didn't accomplish as much as Pryor, but that's only because he was out sick with the flu for three weeks in 1977.
Quote: gpac1377Gpac, that's ridiculous. George Carlin was the greatest of all time. It's true, he didn't accomplish as much as Pryor, but that's only because he was out sick with the flu for three weeks in 1977.
Carlin bombed on TV, Rickles bombed on tv, dumb tv viewers.
Richard Pryor, had he died when he set himself on fire, would be remembered as great comedian.
But too many people remember the shell of a man he was after that.
Richard walked off stage at the Comedy Club, half way thru this act, mumbling he was not funny anymore.
Loved the into line on his website, when he was at death's door from MS
" I am not dead yet, motherf*ucker "
Quote: BuzzardCarlin bombed on TV, Rickles bombed on tv, dumb tv viewers.
Richard Pryor, had he died when he set himself on fire, would be remembered as great comedian.
But too many people remember the shell of a man he was after that.
Richard walked off stage at the Comedy Club, half way thru this act, mumbling he was not funny anymore.
Loved the into line on his website, when he was at death's door from MS
" I am not dead yet, motherf*ucker "
Richard Pryor wins because The Toy was awesome.
Quote: gpac1377Gpac, that's ridiculous. George Carlin was the greatest of all time. It's true, he didn't accomplish as much as Pryor, but that's only because he was out sick with the flu for three weeks in 1977.Quote: gpac1377Richard Pryor was indisputably the greatest comedian of all time. Anyone who believes otherwise is wrong.
Well played, sir.
Quote: GWAEone of the mods should split this thread. The original topic was a good one IMO. Not that this hockey one isn't but its not the OT.
Agreed. I made the mess, I'll fix it when I get home (don't wanna try to split on a clunky phone and erase the whole thread)
Quote: 98ClubsQuote: BuzzardAnd this from another observer :
The only top-ten all-time rusher who even approaches Brown’s totals, Barry Sanders, posted a career average of 99.8 yards per game and 5.0 yards per carry. However, Barry Sanders’ father, William, was frequently quoted as saying that Jim Brown was “the best I’ve ever seen.”[26]
Its late in the sidetrack, but I would like to opine that Jim Brown was the best rusher I ever saw. Barry Sanders could just escape like a magician, and Walter Payton stands between them. Sanders retired not wanting to break Sweetness' record, an homage to greatness, I will say this about these three and one O.J. Simpson, the D knows they're getting the ball, nearly every play, and always when it counts.
Sanders retired not wanting to have to learn a brand new system from the Lions, and a brand new set up for the 42nd in his career. Or what felt like it. He busted a gut for a team that seemed to never really appreciate what they had in him. I hope this doesn't happen with Megatron as well, but that seems unlikely... there's something different about how he's treated.
I'd go for Sanders over Brown, but I'm a biased Lions fan (This is not a insult, Face. Not even a self-insult :p). Brown is second, Payton third. But it's much closer than the debate about Gretsky.
Quote: Lemieux66There something, as a Pens fan, that makes me very happy Ovechkin will never be involved in the Greatest Of question.
See! When you try hard enough, there is always common ground to be found. ;-)
My wife and I were torn. We would have loved to see Semin get a medal in the Olypmics, but that would have meant Ovechkin would have gotten one too. NO way rooting for that to happen. Sorry Sem.
I do not like Ovechkin at all, but I would be happy if the Canes signed him. He is easy to hate as an opposing player, and I think he is a dirty player too, but he knows how to score.
Are your choices for "all time greats" simply based on the players and their acheivements or does it matter which teams they play/played for?
In my case (I like baseball), Cal Ripken JR will always be the best ball player for me (in large part because he played for my favorite team). He probably wasn't the best all time but for me he was.
What characteristics do you use when selecting "all time great"?
Quote: TomspurJust based on this skewed motion in this thread now I have to ask this question......
Are your choices for "all time greats" simply based on the players and their acheivements or does it matter which teams they play/played for?
In my case (I like baseball), Cal Ripken JR will always be the best ball player for me (in large part because he played for my favorite team). He probably wasn't the best all time but for me he was.
What characteristics do you use when selecting "all time great"?
Well, since the thread is getting split anyway, I'll continue with the OT.
If you start factoring in the strength of the team they played for, then you have to factor in the relative strength of each of their opponents, when each game was played. You would also have to rate the effect of each teammate. For instance, if Cal is batting third, and you have a monster batting clean up, Cal will get better pitches to hit in certain situations.
In the end, I think you can really only base your opinion on what was accomplished, with some minor discretionary tweaks . Cal was a workhorse. And I don't recall ever reading where he had any 'personal' issues that follow so many stars. I'm not sure I would rate him the greatest, but he is very close to the top for me.
Quote: TomspurJust based on this skewed motion in this thread now I have to ask this question......
Are your choices for "all time greats" simply based on the players and their acheivements or does it matter which teams they play/played for?
In my case (I like baseball), Cal Ripken JR will always be the best ball player for me (in large part because he played for my favorite team). He probably wasn't the best all time but for me he was.
What characteristics do you use when selecting "all time great"?
Team, health, stats, era played. Accomplishments to a degree, but the team part is a big piece of the accomplishments.
Tai Domi? Come on...!
aren't fit to shine his shoes.
Quote: EvenBobIn MI there's only Gordy Howe. The rest
aren't fit to shine his shoes.
He had a race horse named after him. A dark bay by Japanese sire Hat Trick.
Horse's name was Howe Great
Quote: Tomspur
In my case (I like baseball)...
Haha, kidding! ;)
Quote: Buzzard
Face, ever hear of Jim Brown? And an even greater man after he retired from football.
All due respect to the warriors of your era, but Brown retired 15 years before I was even born. And, since they didn't even have TV back in your day, I've never seen the man in action.
I kid, I kid. I'm on a roll tonight! XD
Quote: thecesspit
I'd go for Sanders over Brown, but I'm a biased Lions fan (This is not a insult, Face. Not even a self-insult :p).
We may bicker about many things, but it will never be this. Sanders was The Man.
Quote: RaleighCrapsSee! When you try hard enough, there is always common ground to be found. ;-)
My wife and I were torn. We would have loved to see Semin get a medal in the Olypmics, but that would have meant Ovechkin would have gotten one too. NO way rooting for that to happen. Sorry Sem.
Ovi bothers me to no end. He's one of those fancy European skaters, so I already by default want to see him get pummeled. But dude can move. He's got the stuff. That slightly makes up for it. What moves him into the "like" territory is his grit. Guy can smash someone and often does, which is something worth saying for a fancy guy. More than you'll ever see that slap fighter Cindy Crosby do. But what solidifies him into "hatred" territory to me is his lack of heart. I've seen that guy coast more than I do after 140 straight minutes without a line change. I don't care if it's minute 1 or minute 60, if it's the first game of the year or the last, if it's game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals or some throwaway game after you're already mathematically eliminated; if you're on the ice, you work for every second you're out there.
He's the worst thing one could ever be. He's a coaster.
Quote: boymimbo
Tai Domi? Come on...!
Bring it, boymimbo!
Quote: FaceHe's [Ovechkin] the worst thing one could ever be. He's a coaster.
Agreed, but I guess if he was on our team, then we wouldn't have to play against him. I don't like him, but I hate when we have to play against him.
Quote: Lemieux66Ovechkin is worse than a coaster. He is simply a loser! Playoffs? Loser! Olympics? Loser! He has the stench of fail all over him.
I guess me and you are gonna argue all day, huh? ;)
I've played with tens if not hundreds of losers. Losers have hope. Losers can learn. There's no a single loser that I've encountered that I couldn't turn into more than a loser. Not one.
A coaster is a lost cause. There is no one that can help him but himself, and himself is what caused him to be a coaster in the first place.
There is nothing, not one thing in this world, worse than a coaster.
Quote: FaceI guess me and you are gonna argue all day, huh? ;)
I've played with tens if not hundreds of losers. Losers have hope. Losers can learn. There's no a single loser that I've encountered that I couldn't turn into more than a loser. Not one.
A coaster is a lost cause. There is no one that can help him but himself, and himself is what caused him to be a coaster in the first place.
There is nothing, not one thing in this world, worse than a coaster.
This is so eternally true. Well said, Face.
My list.
Gretsky
Sanders
Michael Jordan
Tony Oliva
Robin Williams
Pele
Quote: beachbumbabsThis is so eternally true. Well said, Face.
My list.
Gretsky
Sanders
Michael Jordan
Tony Oliva
Robin Williams
Pele
You left off Obama. The Coaster in Chief.
Quote: ontariodealerin hockey, there's bobby orr, then the rest.
He carries Howe's luggage.
The best comic is Louis CK.
Greatest Hockey Player Ever - Wayne Gretzky (its not even close )
Greatest Baseball Player Ever - Mike Trout (in a few years it will be official )
Greatest Football Player Ever - Larry Allen (pound for pound no one in the nfl has ever dominated his position and his opponent like this guy did. And several NFL hof'ers and experts have said the same thing.)
In categories:
Boxing: Sugar Ray Robinson (pugilistic poetry in motion)
Baseball: Babe Ruth (Check out his pitching stats --- if he remained a pitcher he could have been one of, if not the, best pitcher of his era. In his prime he was 6'2" and weighed 220 pounds.)
Basketball: Michael Jordan (tough category with greats such as Chamberlain, Russell, Robertson, West, Johnson, Bird, James, Bryant and many more!)
I do not know enough about hockey or even football to get into who is or isn't the greatest in those sports.
