Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

Quote: MrV

The questioned action did NOT cross the line; in essence it asked those who wanted to vote "after hours" to state affirmatively that they had a good reason not to vote earlier.

It did not in essence ask that. To caucus on Saturday evening one had to affirm they missed the morning caucus for religious reasons.

"Hundreds of people who crowded into the Adelson Educational Campus in Summerlin witnessed repeated clashes between local Republican party officials and would-be caucus-goers who resented being required to affirm their religious beliefs before being allowed to participate." -- LVRJ article.

That is pure and simple religious discrimination. I applaud those who attempted to caucus anyway for other reasons.

Quote: Nareed

Hypocritical ones do, anyway.

Someone I'm familiar with was walking through a very Jewish neighborhood in New York on a hot Saturday afternoon. He noticed a Jew standing on the sidewalk. When it came time to pass, the Jew asked the walker if he could come into his home to turn on the air conditioner.

I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous to me. It requires a lot more effort to stand around on a hot day and wait for someone to come by and agree to your request than just turn it on yourself. In other words, he rested LESS by refusing to turn it on himself.

Quote: Wizard

I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous to me. It requires a lot more effort to stand around on a hot day and wait for someone to come by and agree to your request than just turn it on yourself. In other words, he rested LESS by refusing to turn it on himself.

The truly orthodox must turn off their motion sensors before Sabbath so that they don't inadvertently turn on something by walking in a room. Some people wait until the refrigerator motor is running until they open the door, since otherwise they may inadvertently raise the temperature inside the refrigerator and start the motor. Some rabbis go so far as to prohibit any thermostats whatsoever. They are permitted to set the DVR to record a show on the Sabbath to watch the next day.

I don't think you can assert standards like Kilojoules of work expended to a religious tradition and call one decision ridiculous. These rules are set up knowing full well that an elderly person might suffer in the Nevada heat if a thermostat breaks down or is prohibited.

Religious decisions sometimes defy logic on a fundamental level.

Quote: Wizard

Someone I'm familiar with was walking through a very Jewish neighborhood in New York on a hot Saturday afternoon. He noticed a Jew standing on the sidewalk. He came up to him the Jew asked if the walker could come into his home to turn on his air conditioner.

I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous to me. It requires a lot more effort to stand around on a hot day and wait for someone to come by and agree to your request than just turn it on yourself. In other words, he rested LESS by refusing to turn it on himself.

You're absolutely right. It IS ridiculous. Or hypocritical.

The reality is, the Jew is also prohibited from asking for the non-Jew to turn on the A/C.

If the person approached, and the Jew said, "Boy I'm glad you came by. It's hot in my home, but I'm not allowed to turn on the A/C. Would you mind?..." That is not only forbidden, but damned hypocritical.

If, on the other hand, the exchange went differently, such as the person initiating the conversation: "What are you doing outside on such a hot day?"
"It's too hot inside, and I forgot to turn my A/C on before Shabbos."
"Oh. Well I'll turn it on for you..."
THAT is a different situation. In my opinion, it's still hypocritical, but allowed.

The term "Shabbos goy" refers to someone hired to do all manner of things on Shabbos that the Jew is not permitted to do. However, all the things the goy does must be things he ordinarily does in the course of his regular job. I.E. A person working for a synagogue on Shabbos, turning lights on and off is not necessarily doing that on Shabbos. It would be his job to do that any time there is any sort of activity at the synagogue, regardless of the day of the week.

Sure, he'd also be the one turning on the sound system. But to actually use the sound system is something orthodox Jews also say is forbidden. You won't see sound systems in orthodox synagogues.

Quote: pacomartin

Religious decisions sometimes defy logic on a fundamental level.

Sometimes?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The term "Shabbos goy" refers to someone hired to do all manner of things on Shabbos that the Jew is not permitted to do. However, all the things the goy does must be things he ordinarily does in the course of his regular job.

Bull.

Here's the relevant line: "Six days you shall labour and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates."

Granted it says nothing about employees, but it seems that if even animals get to rest, then employees should too.

Granted the whole thing is foolishness to begin with, but at least I can have some respect for people who do follow the principles they claim to follow.

35 years ago, I had a religious Jewish friend. We were teenagers and he was trying to follow all the rules of Judaism as best as a kid could. He stayed Kosher, went to synogogue, etc... I came home from basketball one Saturday and saw him carrying my mother's suitcases from her car to our apartment. He said that he thought God would be angrier with him if he didn't beak the 'no carry' rule and watched my mother struggle with her bags. If only more could use religion and their belief in God that way.....

Quote: Nareed

Here's the relevant line: "Six days you shall labour and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates."

Granted it says nothing about employees, but it seems that if even animals get to rest, then employees should too.

I would interpret "manservant or maidservant" or be employees.

Quote: Wizard

I would interpret "manservant or maidservant" to be employees.

I think the servants talked about are slaves. People who would, without this commandment, be working 7 days per week.

The same goes for work animals.

On the other hand, certain types of work is allowed. For example, dairy cows must be milked daily (twice daily?). Failure to do that is painful and dangerous for the cow.

Similarly, the sabbath laws may be broken when lives are at stake.

For example, each time my sister-in-law was pregnant, my brother had an envelope with cab fare to the hospital, with tip, set aside. When "Time to go" came on shabbos, he called the cab company, they rode to the hospital, and he gave the driver the envelope.

In fact, he tells me that after calling until the cab arrives, it is ok to answer the phone - in case it's the cabbie and he can't find the house. It's OK for him to ride along, in case his wife needs help of any sort. Of course, once he gets to the hospital, and the doctors take over, he is once again bound to the rules. If it turns out to be a false alarm, they have to wait until after shabbos to get a ride home.

Note that the shabbos laws were set aside, even though pregnancy is usually not a life-treatening event. But the key word is "usually."


On a similar note, did SooPoo's friend do the right thing? Maybe. Maybe not. But it's hard to argue with the rationale employed.



I could go on and on. It's all interesting stuff.

Quote: Wizard

I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous to me.

The whole thing is ridiculous. What is more work, or what takes more effort: to drive to the temple or to walk there? To use a microphone or to raise your voice to be heard in a large room? To stumble around in the dark, or to switch on the lights? To turn on the A/C, or a fan, or to swelter in the heat? To use the elevator, or the stairs?

Granted the "commandment" says no work for you, your family, employees (maybe), servants and animals. It doesn't mention machines or devices, which have no feelings, don't get tired and require no rest. One more curious omission by the omnipotent deity, no doubt...

To their credit, I know several observant Conservative Jews who make use of timers and motion sensors to run some machines and lights. Though they still won't drive.

The Torah and associated commentary are pretty clear on what "manner of work" is or is not allowed. It's not precluding work in the mechanical sense -- you're allowed to flex muscles to do things like getting dressed, even though that is thermodynamically "work". But the Hebrew "melachot" doesn't truly mean "work" in the sense that modern English speakers think of it. Wikipedia has an article on the 39 melachot, and explains why things like completing a circuit by turning on a switch are disallowed.

On a related topic, I understand that a single woman can't be in the company of men, except family members, on the Sabbath.

So, there was an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where Larry was on a ski left with a very orthodox single Jewish woman. About an hour before the sun set they were going on "one last run" when the ski lift broke and they were just sitting there. As the sun got closer to setting the woman got more and more nervous about breaking the Sabbath. Larry tried to explain that these were extenuating circumstances and that it wasn't her fault. However, she would have none of it. Seconds before the sun dipped below the horizon she jumped off the ski lift. As I recall, it was a long way down, like 60 feet. Although she would have landed in snow, I tend to think broken bones would have been involved.

So, my question is how realistic was this scene?

Here is a link to the video.

Quote: Wizard

On a related topic, I understand that a single woman can't be in the company of men, except family members, on the Sabbath.

So, there was an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where Larry was on a ski left with a very orthodox single Jewish woman. About an hour before the sun set they were going on "one last run" when the ski lift broke and they were just sitting there. As the sun got closer to setting the woman got more and more nervous about breaking the Sabbath. Larry tried to explain that these were extenuating circumstances and that it wasn't her fault. However, she would have none of it. Seconds before the sun dipped below the horizon she jumped off the ski lift. As I recall, it was a long way down, like 60 feet. Although she would have landed in snow, I tend to think broken bones would have been involved.

So, my question is how realistic was this scene?

Here is a link to the video.

I didn't have a chance to watch the video. I'm sure it was very funny. His stuff usually is.

To answer the question: Not at all realistic.

There are so many things to do in preparation for the sabbath, that, even if she was living in a house on the edge of the ski slope, she shouldn't have been on skis that late in the day. But ignoring that, once she was in that situation, Larry was right about the extenuating circumstances. Or at least right about not risking life and limb to jump.

Any invocation of a religious purpose suspends the rules of precise logic.

Pressing an elevator buttoned that gloes red upon being activated sometimes comes under the rules for fire but there is no relationship between the two.

Many an Amish man encourages his son to join the church and then announces he has just sold off the farm and hired some Englishman to drive an RV down to Florida for him.

At a blackjack table one can carry the odds out to a zillion places and anyone with a calculator and some patience will happily check it, but once religion enters the framework, everything else is meaningless.

Wizard, "I understand that a single woman can't be in the company of men, except family members, on the Sabbath. "

That is BS

The rule is a women can't be alone with a man not in her immediate family. If a third person is there (I think a child has to be at least 3 yrs old), or in a public place such as outside with other people (staff trying to fix a lift) you can't be alone!!!

Quote: whatme

The rule is a women can't be alone with a man not in her immediate family. If a third person is there (I think a child has to be at least 3 yrs old), or in a public place such as outside with other people (staff trying to fix a lift) you can't be alone!!!

I stand corrected.

I meant to mention that it's being alone with one man in my reply above.

And it extends to ANY woman, on ANY day.

And it also means that, regardlss of whoever else is around, men and women that are not closely related shouldn't have any sort of physical contact. Many orthodox people take this to a further level by not swimming in the same pool at the same time.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I meant to mention that it's being alone with one man in my reply above.

And it extends to ANY woman, on ANY day.

And it also means that, regardlss of whoever else is around, men and women that are not closely related shouldn't have any sort of physical contact. Many orthodox people take this to a further level by not swimming in the same pool at the same time.

True story--- I had a nice large pool, a wonderful place to relax on a warm Buffalo summers day. An uncle, religious, had a colleague who had converted to Judaism and had lots, I think 8, kids. They were visiting him and he asked if the wife and kids could come over and swim. Of course I said yes. When I was told that I would not be allowed to be present I changed my mind.

Quote: Wizard

So, my question is how realistic was this scene?

Absolutely not realistic, if indeed the woman was very orthodox and learned and not short-sighted. Personal well-being and the well-being of others always comes first. A religious Jew would not hestitate to violate the Sabbath if a life or serious bodily injury was as stake. You don't jump off a ski lift and risk hurting/killing yourself if you might violate the Sabbath. No rabbi would advise that.

As for the male/female rules, there are a lot of them and observance runs the gamut. The three main doctrines are N'giah (the prohibition of male/female umarrieds touching), tzinus (modesty), and yichud (prohibition of seclusion of male/female unmarrieds). Anyhow, there's a lot more one could go into there.

By the way, I agree with everything DJTeddyBear said and I would like him to be designated co-Judaism expert :)

Now that I finally watched the scene, I'll say that it wasn't realistic AT ALL.

Ignoring for a moment that she should have already been home getting ready for sabbath, or that the rule she quoted doesn't exist, the prohibition of a woman and man being alone together and avoiding contact should have precluded her from getting on the chairlift with him in the first place.


For fun and argument's sake, say that they got on the lift at noon. Plenty of time for her to get home. Then it breaks down, and they are there for hours, and sabbath is approaching. FYI: Can't use a ski lift on sabbath, so she COULD have been concerned with being on it after sabbath begins, if she's on it much longer. Is that any reason to jump? No. Too dangerous. Continue to wait for it to resume or for help to arrive.

Note, assuming it's never fixed, and the rescue squad arrives with a cherry picker, there will probably be a man in the bucket to assist. Should she then be concerned with him touching her to help her out of the lift? No.

Larry had it exactly right: Extenuating circumstances.

Quote: teddys

By the way, I agree with everything DJTeddyBear said and I would like him to be designated co-Judaism expert :)

Thanks for that vote, but is this where I remind everyone that I'm a Reverend?

For what it's worth, I was raised orthodox, and have a brother who is two-spoons shy of being a Rabbi, and still love going to his house for Passover Seder, even though the food doesn't come out until around midnight.

As a result I know more about Judaism than I really care to.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Is that any reason to jump? No. Too dangerous. Continue to wait for it to resume or for help to arrive.

Maybe they could install an eruv around the skiing area.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Larry had it exactly right: Extenuating circumstances.

Larry thinks being Jewish is ridiculous, but you
notice he doesn't give it up. I have a Jewish
friend and he's always complaining how dumb
the religion is, yet he's very proud of being Jewish.
Oy...

I don't think it is a dumb religion. There are some aspects of the rabbinic teaching that I think are strained and, if you will, a little "dumb." But the basic values of the religion are strong: worship One God, treat your fellow man decently, etc., etc. A lot like Christianity except for the Christ part.

There is also a whole spectrum of observance; there is even something called "secular Judaism" which competely does away with the religious aspect and just focuses on cultural things like eating corned beef, celebrating Hanukah, left-wing politics... :)

Sorry for the late post.

One should not be included/excluded from a political group based upon faith and its rules. Reagan is probably turning in his grave.
So like what was wrong with Wednesday? Oh wait, thats a business day, some might be excluded because they have a JOB (alliterative pun intended).