Threshold of transaction/winnings that requires ID
April 20th, 2020 at 7:15:27 AM
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What amount is the threshold that the casino will require an ID? Is it just the amount that causes a tax form to be required? Is it $10,000? Can card counters avoid being banned by winning under the threshold and refusing to give their name to the casino? Can the casino still read and enforce the trespass law or whatever to a person without knowing their name? I am assuming that the total amount of chips that the player cashes in at the cage is the amount that is considered for the threshold? For example, if a player buys $10,000 in chips and doesn’t even place a bet (maybe he or she changes their mind), wouldn’t he or she still have to fill out a tax form?
April 20th, 2020 at 7:35:33 AM
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Quote: quickpickFor example, if a player buys $10,000 in chips and doesn’t even place a bet (maybe he or she changes their mind), wouldn’t he or she still have to fill out a tax form?
The casino will require a valid issued and not expired state or federal ID. The patron does not have to fill out or sign any form but the casino will have to. The form being submitted is a Currency Transaction Report (CTR). It really isn't a tax form at all, it does go to the government because they are tracking where large amounts of cash are being used. It has no affect on the patron unless the government determines you might be laundering money.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
April 20th, 2020 at 3:07:53 PM
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The real answer is: It depends on the casino.
I've been to, well, a lot of casinos. From my experience I'd say the threshold for where they'll ask for an ID is around $2000-$2500. Of course I've had small shops ask for my ID when cashing out $900. I've also had other shops let me cash out $6k with no ID request. Hell I've had the same shop but different cage workers have different amounts. This does NOT mean they are writing up a CTR. Casinos are aware that people "structure" (which I do not recommend since it is illegal) in order to avoid a CTR. Basically, if you had $10k in chips (even if you bought in for $9k then won $1k, doesn't matter) and go to cash them out, CTR, guaranteed. However if you go to the cage to the left, cash out $5k, then go to the cage on the right, cash out $5k, no $10k threshold on any 1 transaction. Again, this is structuring and illegal if you are doing it on purpose.
Anyways, casinos will start requiring, and I say that as an INTERNAL rule NOT law, ID to cash out around $2500 because most of them keep an internal log to catch this. If you go to cash out $2500 they'll ask for your ID because they keep your "daily transaction total" in the background. So if you do cash out $5k at cage A then $5k at cage B they'll see that you cashed out $10k total and write up a CTR with your information. If they think you're an AP and doing it on purpose they could write up a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report) as well if they have your information. Obviously one can see that they could cash out on separate days, lesser amounts, etc, to avoid this. I only say this not for structuring to avoid a CTR, but to avoid giving a casino your ID since LAWFULLY you do not have to for these smaller transactions... even though casinos QUITE OFTEN hold players chips hostage in order to get the players information. This is where gaming usually gets called in and THEN the casino must pay out, but it's a freeroll for them and it causes a scene for the player. A memorable scene...
Just like casinos have thresholds for reporting any "big" winnings or losses to the shift manager for review, they have their own internal rules about trying to get player information and ID's. If a casino tells you they must have your ID for a CTR or SAR for an amount under $10k, you legally do not have to give it to them. Bob N. was on GWAE talking about this in the past. The law dictates for an amount less than a CTR (<$10k) you do not have to give your ID and the casino should take the best possible physical description of you for their logs and even CTR's. Be aware of your rights, contact a lawyer or gaming in your jurisdiction, and know your rights. While it might be a big scene to deny giving your ID and to call gaming, losing 1 casino might be better than going in to databases which doesn't ruin a career, but can make it more complicated. Always look for the best EV on and off the tables.
I've been to, well, a lot of casinos. From my experience I'd say the threshold for where they'll ask for an ID is around $2000-$2500. Of course I've had small shops ask for my ID when cashing out $900. I've also had other shops let me cash out $6k with no ID request. Hell I've had the same shop but different cage workers have different amounts. This does NOT mean they are writing up a CTR. Casinos are aware that people "structure" (which I do not recommend since it is illegal) in order to avoid a CTR. Basically, if you had $10k in chips (even if you bought in for $9k then won $1k, doesn't matter) and go to cash them out, CTR, guaranteed. However if you go to the cage to the left, cash out $5k, then go to the cage on the right, cash out $5k, no $10k threshold on any 1 transaction. Again, this is structuring and illegal if you are doing it on purpose.
Anyways, casinos will start requiring, and I say that as an INTERNAL rule NOT law, ID to cash out around $2500 because most of them keep an internal log to catch this. If you go to cash out $2500 they'll ask for your ID because they keep your "daily transaction total" in the background. So if you do cash out $5k at cage A then $5k at cage B they'll see that you cashed out $10k total and write up a CTR with your information. If they think you're an AP and doing it on purpose they could write up a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report) as well if they have your information. Obviously one can see that they could cash out on separate days, lesser amounts, etc, to avoid this. I only say this not for structuring to avoid a CTR, but to avoid giving a casino your ID since LAWFULLY you do not have to for these smaller transactions... even though casinos QUITE OFTEN hold players chips hostage in order to get the players information. This is where gaming usually gets called in and THEN the casino must pay out, but it's a freeroll for them and it causes a scene for the player. A memorable scene...
Just like casinos have thresholds for reporting any "big" winnings or losses to the shift manager for review, they have their own internal rules about trying to get player information and ID's. If a casino tells you they must have your ID for a CTR or SAR for an amount under $10k, you legally do not have to give it to them. Bob N. was on GWAE talking about this in the past. The law dictates for an amount less than a CTR (<$10k) you do not have to give your ID and the casino should take the best possible physical description of you for their logs and even CTR's. Be aware of your rights, contact a lawyer or gaming in your jurisdiction, and know your rights. While it might be a big scene to deny giving your ID and to call gaming, losing 1 casino might be better than going in to databases which doesn't ruin a career, but can make it more complicated. Always look for the best EV on and off the tables.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
April 21st, 2020 at 7:17:26 AM
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Quote: quickpick<snip>Can the casino still read and enforce the trespass law or whatever to a person without knowing their name?<snip>
quickpick,
Yes, they can.
Dog Hand
April 21st, 2020 at 10:43:30 AM
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Quote: DRichThe casino will require a valid issued and not expired state or federal ID. The patron does not have to fill out or sign any form but the casino will have to. The form being submitted is a Currency Transaction Report (CTR). It really isn't a tax form at all, it does go to the government because they are tracking where large amounts of cash are being used. It has no affect on the patron unless the government determines you might be laundering money.
They do have to sign the W9 or W8BEN.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
