IRS Return: Rags or Riches?
Poll
 | 1 vote (2.85%) | ||
| | 8 votes (22.85%) | ||
| | 5 votes (14.28%) | ||
| | 12 votes (34.28%) | ||
| | 4 votes (11.42%) | ||
| | 8 votes (22.85%) | ||
| | 7 votes (20%) | ||
| | 4 votes (11.42%) | ||
| | 3 votes (8.57%) | ||
| | 5 votes (14.28%) |
35 members have voted
Quote: unJon
No. Doesn’t really make sense except as sophistry. State tax is a forced charitable contribution. Person in PA can choose to donate another $400 to charity of choice and pay same federal taxes as the CA person. Federal government isn’t robbed by either the voluntary $400 charitable donation by PA person or forced extra $400 charitable contribution of CA person.
By "forced charitable contribution" you mean "theft," I assume? Taxes are theft. They are not "charity." The state is not charity, it is your lord, to whom you must pay tribute at the point of a gun. But that is for other posts.
Choosing to donate to charity has zero to do with CA not paying its fair share. The person in CA can also donate to the charity of their choice.
Nice try, as nice as the blue states trying to make an "optional" charity out of their state taxes. Which I will assume at least partly influenced your thinking.
Quote: AZDuffmanBy "forced charitable contribution" you mean "theft," I assume? Taxes are theft. They are not "charity." The state is not charity, it is your lord, to whom you must pay tribute at the point of a gun. But that is for other posts.
Choosing to donate to charity has zero to do with CA not paying its fair share. The person in CA can also donate to the charity of their choice.
Nice try, as nice as the blue states trying to make an "optional" charity out of their state taxes. Which I will assume at least partly influenced your thinking.
No. Never heard of blue states and “optional” charity. If something newsworthy or current eventsy doesn’t make the 5 Things daily CNN email, then I haven’t heard of it. That’s about all the time I have for news or politics.
And there’s no “nice try” here. It’s simply a fact. There are lots of things you get a deduction for on your federal taxes. And no qualitative difference to my mind between a deduction for charitable contributions or a deduction for state taxes (these days up to the SALT cap).
It’s a projection by you to characterize one as resulting in “not paying fair share” and not the other. No basis in objective truth (whatever that means).
.Quote: billryanTaxes are theft? What a ridiculous argument. Why don't you go build your own roads, educate your own children. Go remind my brothers fighting overseas how they are stealing from you. Go call your drinking buddies next time your house catches fire. I'm sure they will be right over and have the equipment you'll need.
You have no choice to not pay taxes. If you do not, men with guns will come and take what you owe. That is theft where I come from
Quote: unJonNo. Never heard of blue states and “optional” charity. If something newsworthy or current eventsy doesn’t make the 5 Things daily CNN email, then I haven’t heard of it. That’s about all the time I have for news or politics.
Trust me, it was an idea that was floated. I have to figure the IRS said no dice as soon as they heard it as it was a very naked attempt at state sponsored tax evasion.
Quote:And there’s no “nice try” here. It’s simply a fact. There are lots of things you get a deduction for on your federal taxes. And no qualitative difference to my mind between a deduction for charitable contributions or a deduction for state taxes (these days up to the SALT cap).
Yes, it was a "nice try." I showed two equal taxpayers. The one in CA is making the same as the one in PA yet sending in less to the feds. IOW, not paying their fair share. You added in a variable for just the one in PA to show the one in PA *could* send in less, if that thing changed. Totally changes the subject.
Quote:It’s a projection by you to characterize one as resulting in “not paying fair share” and not the other. No basis in objective truth (whatever that means).
It is not "projection." It is math.
Two people make an equal amount. One pays less in federal taxes. That one paying less is not paying their fair share.
Quote: AZDuffman
Two people make an equal amount. One pays less in federal taxes. That one paying less is not paying their fair share.
I’ll try one more time on the assumption you aren’t intentionally dodging.
“Fair share” is a characterization. The math in your example simply showed that the CA person paid less than the PA person. The math say absolutely nothing about what a “fair share” is or which one (if any) is paying it.
I gave a different example where the PA person makes a charitable contribution, which reduces his federal tax burden and makes it equal to the CA person. You avoided the implications of my hypothetical. Is your opinion that the PA person is now not paying “his fair share” like the CA person? Or is the PA person still “paying his fair share” but the CA person still is not, despite paying Uncle Sam the same amount?
Depending on your answers above, you are making a value judgement distinction between deductions for state taxes and charities. One that I don’t think is justified. Or you just think there should not be any deductions. That would be an interesting position and we could discuss the ramifications of that if you like.
Or you could just respond with a “na na na na na na”” post that avoids the questions and accuses me of changing the facts in some meaningful way. That’s fine. I’m ok not engaging further if you don’t want to investigate the causes of your “value judgement” about what a “fair share” means. But if that’s the case, then I can’t take your value judgments as containing any meaning. Hence sophistry.
*shrug*
Quote: AZDuffman.
You have no choice to not pay taxes. If you do not, men with guns will come and take what you owe. That is theft where I come from
The ones that pay the least in taxes and benefit the most from a tax system that punishes success and hard work usually complain the most about others “Not paying their fair share”.
Quote: BozThe ones that pay the least in taxes and benefit the most from a tax system that punishes success and hard work usually complain the most about others “Not paying their fair share”.
This is my main point. I'm paying $20k more this year thanks to the tax cut I received (sarcasm intended). So instead of paying for 18 American families I am now paying for 19 or 20, or whatever it turns out to be. And that's ok. I'm fortunate to be in this situation. But always hearing those on the left telling me I'm not paying "my fair share" (see AOC), that is what riles me. What I really should be receiving from the left is a thank you note. I'm not holding my breath.
Quote: SOOPOOWhat I really should be receiving from the left is a thank you note. I'm not holding my breath.
As a local poor I'd thank you, I'm just not sure what for. My neighbor's been patching our road for 7yrs now, my school consistently ranks bottom of state, and it takes 50 min for the police to arrive. I'd thank you for sending our convicts to college, but I've no friends or family in the clink.
So... thanks for the Sabres tickets and free med referrals =)
Quote: FaceAs a local poor I'd thank you, I'm just not sure what for. My neighbor's been patching our road for 7yrs now, my school consistently ranks bottom of state, and it takes 50 min for the police to arrive. I'd thank you for sending our convicts to college, but I've no friends or family in the clink.
So... thanks for the Sabres tickets and free med referrals =)
No more sabres tix. I gave up my season tix. I only went to two games this year.
Your complaints, by the way, are NYS complaints, not federal. My rant is about Federal taxes. My NYS taxes stayed around the same I think.
Funny thing about the illegals getting free tuition, and not the kids from Gold Star families, is that everyone in NYS below a certain income level can get free tuition at SUNY schools IF they sign a contract saying they will stay in NYS for 4 years after graduating. Crushing the local private colleges...
Quote: SOOPOOThis is my main point. I'm paying $20k more this year thanks to the tax cut I received (sarcasm intended). So instead of paying for 18 American families I am now paying for 19 or 20, or whatever it turns out to be. And that's ok. I'm fortunate to be in this situation. But always hearing those on the left telling me I'm not paying "my fair share" (see AOC), that is what riles me. What I really should be receiving from the left is a thank you note. I'm not holding my breath.
I'd think springing for $100 breakfasts should be your own rewards.
You worked very hard to accomplish what you have done. You had a plan, saw what you wanted and went for. You wanted to make a bazillion dollars and you are. By the same token, you knew all along that being successful means paying more in taxes. It's a bargain you were aware of, so complaining about it doesn't accomplish much.
Years ago,, when Roth IRAs were introduced, I didn't think they were that hot. My money guys recommended them so I stuck my foot in the water.Around 2007, they convinced me to convert almost all my IRAs to Roths and settle the taxes up. I didn't like it, but I pay them because they know better than me.
End result-last year I started withdrawing my retirement money with next to no taxes due.
Plans. They actually work. Who'd have thunk?
Quote: unJonI’ll try one more time on the assumption you aren’t intentionally dodging.
“Fair share” is a characterization. The math in your example simply showed that the CA person paid less than the PA person. The math say absolutely nothing about what a “fair share” is or which one (if any) is paying it.
The math shows two people of equal income. One is sending less to the feds than the other. Thus one is not paying their fair share. What is more fair than equal people paying an equal amount.
Quote:I gave a different example where the PA person makes a charitable contribution, which reduces his federal tax burden and makes it equal to the CA person. You avoided the implications of my hypothetical. Is your opinion that the PA person is now not paying “his fair share” like the CA person? Or is the PA person still “paying his fair share” but the CA person still is not, despite paying Uncle Sam the same amount?
Your example has nothing to do with paying a fair share. Your example changes the situation for one person but not the other. I do not even understand why you brought it up.
Quote:Depending on your answers above, you are making a value judgement distinction between deductions for state taxes and charities. One that I don’t think is justified. Or you just think there should not be any deductions. That would be an interesting position and we could discuss the ramifications of that if you like.
Or you could just respond with a “na na na na na na”” post that avoids the questions and accuses me of changing the facts in some meaningful way. That’s fine. I’m ok not engaging further if you don’t want to investigate the causes of your “value judgement” about what a “fair share” means. But if that’s the case, then I can’t take your value judgments as containing any meaning. Hence sophistry.
*shrug*
I am not talking about additional donations to charities. You are doing that. STATE TAX IS NOT A CHARITY!
YOU are making value judgments, not me. My statement is a simple one. My position is if two people make equal, they should pay equal. One should not pay less because their state takes more from them in the form of state taxes.
Your position as I see it is that we need to take more than dollar value into account. That we need to adjust "fair" to include other things, whatever they are. You are making the value judgment, not me. Mine is simple dollars and cents. Equal CA taxpayer sends less to the feds, they are not paying their fair share.
You want to talk about what a state receives in federal spending, that is a different and unrelated rabbit hole. CA gets more from the feds in the form of border protection, naval/coast guard protection, tsunami warning systems, and other things. A state like Nebraska may get more in farm subsidies. CA gets more in highway spending, more student loan subsidies.
That is far more complicated, but a different conversation.
The challenge was:
Quote: beachbumbabsPffff. Sprinkling truth glitter on your lie like sawdust on vomit. :) What is California's "fair share"? California is a donor state. They have been every year people make this argument on here, never of course with anything to back it up.
I backed it up with actual numbers. I showed people in CA are paying less to the feds. Nobody has shown with any kind of number that a person in CA is paying less in federal tax than a lower tax state.
If people in CA do not like their high-tax status then they need to start voting for smaller government and pols who do not want to tax anything that moves. High taxes and big government are the way they want it. Well, they get it. I just want them to quit complaining when they get what they keep voting for.
Thank you for clarifying your position. Avoidance and sophistry it is. We can end the dialogue here since there’s no engagement with what I’m saying.Quote: AZDuffmanThe math shows two people of equal income. One is sending less to the feds than the other. Thus one is not paying their fair share. What is more fair than equal people paying an equal amount.
Your example has nothing to do with paying a fair share. Your example changes the situation for one person but not the other. I do not even understand why you brought it up.
I am not talking about additional donations to charities. You are doing that. STATE TAX IS NOT A CHARITY!
YOU are making value judgments, not me. My statement is a simple one. My position is if two people make equal, they should pay equal. One should not pay less because their state takes more from them in the form of state taxes.
Your position as I see it is that we need to take more than dollar value into account. That we need to adjust "fair" to include other things, whatever they are. You are making the value judgment, not me. Mine is simple dollars and cents. Equal CA taxpayer sends less to the feds, they are not paying their fair share.
You want to talk about what a state receives in federal spending, that is a different and unrelated rabbit hole. CA gets more from the feds in the form of border protection, naval/coast guard protection, tsunami warning systems, and other things. A state like Nebraska may get more in farm subsidies. CA gets more in highway spending, more student loan subsidies.
That is far more complicated, but a different conversation.
The challenge was:Quote: beachbumbabsPffff. Sprinkling truth glitter on your lie like sawdust on vomit. :) What is California's "fair share"? California is a donor state. They have been every year people make this argument on here, never of course with anything to back it up.
I backed it up with actual numbers. I showed people in CA are paying less to the feds. Nobody has shown with any kind of number that a person in CA is paying less in federal tax than a lower tax state.
If people in CA do not like their high-tax status then they need to start voting for smaller government and pols who do not want to tax anything that moves. High taxes and big government are the way they want it. Well, they get it. I just want them to quit complaining when they get what they keep voting for.
Quote: AZDuffmanTaxes are theft.
Would you be in favor of repealing the 16th amendment?
Quote: TigerWuWould you be in favor of repealing the 16th amendment?
Absolutely. But only if it was replaced with PROHIBITION of an income tax. Move to excise and sales taxes.
Thank you for clarifying your position. Avoidance and sophistry it is. We can end the dialogue here since there’s no engagement with what I’m saying.Quote: unJon
Correct. I am talking straight numbers and the tax code. I honestly do not understand what you are trying to get at. Not sure why you think the actual numbers are somehow avoiding and deceiving.
Quote: AZDuffmanAbsolutely. But only if it was replaced with PROHIBITION of an income tax. Move to excise and sales taxes.
Any other amendments you'd like to repeal?
Quote: AZDuffman.
You have no choice to not pay taxes. If you do not, men with guns will come and take what you owe. That is theft where I come from
You do have a choice. You can go live elsewhere.
It's pretty amusing that you position yourself as the biggest patriot on this board, but you think taxes are theft. The logical progression of this argument would be that you don't think you should pay taxes.
And yet, I could find a hundred posts by you here and on DT trolling those people who don't pay them, either through poverty or by other exemptions (unless they're Trump, of course, who's proud to pay no taxes).
Add in the loser's flag (see War of Northern Aggression ie Civil War) you insist on flying, and your various other rejections of US law and standards, and I really wonder why you don't leave the US permanently. The Confederate States did, after all - I'm sure there's some autocratic dictatorship somewhere that would welcome you.
Quote: SOOPOONo more sabres tix. I gave up my season tix. I only went to two games this year.
Your complaints, by the way, are NYS complaints, not federal. My rant is about Federal taxes. My NYS taxes stayed around the same I think.
Funny thing about the illegals getting free tuition, and not the kids from Gold Star families, is that everyone in NYS below a certain income level can get free tuition at SUNY schools IF they sign a contract saying they will stay in NYS for 4 years after graduating. Crushing the local private colleges...
I genuinely don't understand why this bill failed, which probably means I don't understand NYS politics. Was it a clean bill, no riders, no poison pill attached? Was the Gold Star addendum to something else (that was unpassable for an unrelated reason), but pulled out for attention by the media? Was the budgeting able to absorb it, or was it deemed a lower priority than whatever the money needed would fund?
Can you give me an objective read on the basics? I'd appreciate it.
Quote: TigerWuAny other amendments you'd like to repeal?
Yes. I would like to get rid of direct election of Senators and have them return to being elected by the state legislatures.
Modify citizenship so you can not just be born here but must have at least one US Citizen as a parent to get natural born citizenship.
Quote: beachbumbabs
It's pretty amusing that you position yourself as the biggest patriot on this board, but you think taxes are theft. The logical progression of this argument would be that you don't think you should pay taxes.
Talk about putting words in someones mouth who didn't say it! He specifically posted a few posts back that we should pay excise and sales taxes, not income taxes! So you want to make it appear that AZ is unaware that the government needs funding and he does not want to participate in its funding!?!?? He is just CLEARLY proposing another way to fund the government. Your characterization of him is blatantly unfair.
Quote: AZDuffman
Correct. I am talking straight numbers and the tax code. I honestly do not understand what you are trying to get at. Not sure why you think the actual numbers are somehow avoiding and deceiving.
Sigh. You aren’t. You are making a value judgement about the deductibility of state taxes from federal taxable income.
Straight numbers: Person in CA that makes the same as someone in PA and otherwise has identical deductions (other than state tax deduction) pays less in federal taxes.
Value judgment: Person in CA that makes the same as someone in PA and otherwise has identical deductions (other than state tax deduction) isn’t paying “fair share” of taxes.
If you want to make an argument that state taxes should not be deductible at all (as opposed to the current $10k cap), then fine make that argument. But you aren’t doing that. You are claiming (sophistically) that you are just laying out math.
There are lots of federal deductions, and you could debate the merits of all of them. That might make an interesting thread.
And as an aside your math needs work as it ignores the standard deduction.
To be fair, excise and sales taxes are also theft. :-)Quote: SOOPOOTalk about putting words in someones mouth who didn't say it! He specifically posted a few posts back that we should pay excise and sales taxes, not income taxes! So you want to make it appear that AZ is unaware that the government needs funding and he does not want to participate in its funding!?!?? He is just CLEARLY proposing another way to fund the government. Your characterization of him is blatantly unfair.
Quote: unJonTo be fair, excise and sales taxes are also theft. :-)
Had that been AZ's position, then what BBB posted would have been fair. But it is NOT what he posted!
Quote: beachbumbabsI genuinely don't understand why this bill failed, which probably means I don't understand NYS politics. Was it a clean bill, no riders, no poison pill attached? Was the Gold Star addendum to something else (that was unpassable for an unrelated reason), but pulled out for attention by the media? Was the budgeting able to absorb it, or was it deemed a lower priority than whatever the money needed would fund?
Can you give me an objective read on the basics? I'd appreciate it.
Here's some more info about it.
Quote: beachbumbabsAnd yet, I could find a hundred posts by you here and on DT trolling those people who don't pay them, either through poverty or by other exemptions (unless they're Trump, of course, who's proud to pay no taxes).
Add in the loser's flag (see War of Northern Aggression ie Civil War) you insist on flying, and your various other rejections of US law and standards, and I really wonder why you don't leave the US permanently. The Confederate States did, after all - I'm sure there's some autocratic dictatorship somewhere that would welcome you.
I'm not allowed to say the "t" word without getting banned, but it's in rule 12 of the forum rules. Duffman's been doing it for years. I'm surprised y'all have let him get away with it for so long.
Quote: beachbumbabsYou do have a choice. You can go live elsewhere.
There will be taxes no matter where I go.
Quote:It's pretty amusing that you position yourself as the biggest patriot on this board, but you think taxes are theft. The logical progression of this argument would be that you don't think you should pay taxes.
Taxes are theft. I explained why earlier and on other occasions. I would like to see income taxes repealed. I would find excise or sales taxes to be theft but less so as they are closer to a user fee.
Quote:And yet, I could find a hundred posts by you here and on DT trolling those people who don't pay them, either through poverty or by other exemptions (unless they're Trump, of course, who's proud to pay no taxes).
I do, because that same group complains that the people who are paying taxes of in some cases near 50% of their income are somehow not paying enough. It is a huge problem when 40% pay effectively no taxes while 10% pay about 90% of the taxes but the people in the pay no taxes group scream bloody murder when the people paying get something back.
As to Trump if he uses legal means to minimize his taxes good for him! He might have carry forward losses doing this, one of the few ways. AMZN is paying no taxes because of carry-forward. Why is there so much less complaining about Bezos I wonder?
Quote:Add in the loser's flag (see War of Northern Aggression ie Civil War) you insist on flying, and your various other rejections of US law and standards, and I really wonder why you don't leave the US permanently. The Confederate States did, after all - I'm sure there's some autocratic dictatorship somewhere that would welcome you.
I fly a modified battle flag (the Confederate Flag has no coiled snake) to show I do not like an over-powerful central government. Why would you think I would want to move to a dictatorship where it would be worse? As to rejecting US laws and standards, did you get upset when were being married before it was legal? Did you support PATCO going on strike in violation of the law? Do you support sanctuary cities? I wonder!
I think the best thing on an individual basis is to separate from the system as much as possible and quit playing the game. Easier said than done, for sure. It is easier if you already have most of your needs met thru the resources you have available. Every new generation has an exponentially decreasing chance of individual success, the way things are currently set-up.
Quote: AZDuffmanYes. I would like to get rid of direct election of Senators and have them return to being elected by the state legislatures.
Modify citizenship so you can not just be born here but must have at least one US Citizen as a parent to get natural born citizenship.
Are some Amendments more sacred than others? Would you trade the 2nd away if the 16th went away with it?
It's a shame you don't want to trust the people and want half of Congress installed by the very career politicians you rant about. Sounds like a very well thought out plan. Not unlike thinking dropping off undocumented people in sanctuary cities is going to stop others from coming here.
Quote: billryanAre some Amendments more sacred than others? Would you trade the 2nd away if the 16th went away with it?
It's a shame you don't want to trust the people and want half of Congress installed by the very career politicians you rant about. Sounds like a very well thought out plan. Not unlike thinking dropping off undocumented people in sanctuary cities is going to stop others from coming here.
I would not "trade" amendments.
No, I do not want the people picking senators, because it has been a disaster. The idea was for the House to represent the people and the Senate to represent the states. Keeping it indirect meant that Senators could be more careful in what they voted for or against. What you get now are Senators who vote to saddle the states with all kinds of mandates that cost all kinds of money. Vote for more big government at the federal level as well so they can buy votes with pork.
Then there is the need for balance across the state. Take a state like Michigan where most of the population is clustered around Detroit. With direct voting the two Senators will cluster more attention and money around Detroit. Indirect they have to pay attention to the whole state, UP and all.
What do you have against dropping off illegal aliens in sanctuary cities? Said cities want to make it as comfortable as possible for illegals. Wouldn't putting the illegals in the cities most welcoming be best?
Pedro is apprehended at the Texas border and bussed to New York where he is released and reminded he has a hearing in Texas in three months. He calls his brother in Guatemala City, tells them of the free bus ride to NY and they should all come get on the bus.
Seems like a plan an open borders supporter would love. My church sponsored a Syrian refugee family for two years. We'd do another if trump allowed them in. We'll happily take in a few more.
Quote: mcallister3200Taxes aren’t so much theft as they are extortion IMO. Like neighborhood businesses paying the mob for protection, it’s BS but better than the alternatives you’ve been given. It’s not that things don’t need to get funded and perhaps some minimal taxes are justified, it’s that most things funded by taxpayers would be better off in the private sector with no government involvement or on a fee for use type basis like tolls and sales taxes.
I’d accept calling them extortion.
Quote: AZDuffmanI’d accept calling them extortion.
I'm sure the guys overseas appreciate that.
I look at taxes as a partnership. My partner takes care of a lot of stuff- maintains my roads, protects my neighborhood, educates the next generation of customers, ect, ect. His doing all that lets me do what I do best. Take money from other people who think they have too much of it and willingly give it over in return for stuff. Without my partner, none of that happens. The better I do, the better he does. The better he does, the easier it is for me to do better. He's got my back, is putting something away for my retirement, would have taken care of my kids if needed and generally makes my life better. Best investment I've made.
Quote: beachbumbabsYou do have a choice. You can go live elsewhere.
I always shake my head when people complain about state taxes. How about move to one of the many states that don't have state tax?
Quote: DRichI always shake my head when people complain about state taxes. How about move to one of the many states that don't have state tax?
I’ll take it a step further and say politics should play into it where your life allows it. There is little reason for any conservatives to stay in NY or CA if they can utilize their profession elsewhere. It’s not changing so you have to accept your vote is worthless there. Obviously they would have to do the math on income change versus taxes but there is a greater good.
I know everyone can’t move to Florida or Nevada, but these are 2 of the biggest battlegrounds for the future of this country. And both states need every good conservation they can get to vote down the crazies while paying zero State income tax. Win/win.
Quote: billryanI'm sure the guys overseas appreciate that.
I look at taxes as a partnership. My partner takes care of a lot of stuff- maintains my roads, protects my neighborhood, educates the next generation of customers, ect, ect. His doing all that lets me do what I do best. Take money from other people who think they have too much of it and willingly give it over in return for stuff. Without my partner, none of that happens. The better I do, the better he does. The better he does, the easier it is for me to do better. He's got my back, is putting something away for my retirement, would have taken care of my kids if needed and generally makes my life better. Best investment I've made.
Talk about a one sided partnership.
As far as Boz saying my vote is worthless, it is in a Presidential election, but my Congressman is elected by me, and Republicans tend to win this seat.
As far as MrV telling me to move to a no tax state, taxes are only a small factor in where I chose to live. The next phase of my life weather will be a big factor. Naples, Florida is presently in the lead for October through April. It's 40 and rainy today here.
Quote: BozThere is little reason for any conservatives to stay in NY or CA if they can utilize their profession elsewhere. It’s not changing so you have to accept your vote is worthless there.
You're not kidding. Go look at the county map for elections. The majority of NY by area votes republican. But the population of NYC cancels the rest of us out. Cuomo knows it and pretty much laughs in our faces because of it.
Quote: SkittleCar1You're not kidding. Go look at the county map for elections. The majority of NY by area votes republican. But the population of NYC cancels the rest of us out. Cuomo knows it and pretty much laughs in our faces because of it.
Democracy sucks. You give everyone the right to vote.and they do . What a horrible system.
Quote: billryanDemocracy sucks. You give everyone the right to vote.and they do . What a horrible system.
Best system made to date. Many upstaters just do not feel that State decisions adequately take their needs and wishes into considerations while making policy. They would prefer that NY be divided into two states... Upstate NY and NYC+. Each would have its own separate representatives and government and tax structure and police and etc....
If it ever happened, Upstate would soon be acutely aware about how much Downstate subsidizes us.
Quote: SOOPOOBest system made to date. Many upstaters just do not feel that State decisions adequately take their needs and wishes into considerations while making policy. They would prefer that NY be divided into two states... Upstate NY and NYC+. Each would have its own separate representatives and government and tax structure and police and etc....
If it ever happened, Upstate would soon be acutely aware about how much Downstate subsidizes us.
When I lived there I wished downstate would split off, probably at the Tap. The "downstate subsidy" was not all it was cracked up to be. Downstate was always passing laws unneeded upstate. Still are. Ask how many southern tier landowners would love to drill for gas. Downstate is keeping them poor.
Quote: SOOPOONaples, Florida is presently in the lead for October through April. It's 40 and rainy today here.
Naples is nice. I have family in Cape Coral and they really like it.
