ID'd on Cashier Payout for Chips
Recently I was in an Indian casino playing a table for several hours. I was ID'd at the cashier for a payout of around four thousand. More than half of the payout was the original buy-in I used to gamble with. Asking for the ID didn't seem odd to me but then a boss was called and took my ID somewhere for five minutes. I can imagine that maybe they were photocopying it, otherwise why wouldn't they just enter the information in right at the cashier console, in front of me. This is what seemed odd to me. Obviously, I had to wait to be paid until my ID was returned. I filled out no paperwork. Their reasoning was that the ID they had on file was expired from years ago. They used some term "OD". At the same time the year they stated the ID was expired from is completely different from the ID expiration sequence history. I'm certain I had been in this casino in the last couple of years. Assuming they were photocopying, is this standard for everyone. I'm no high roller and not a frequent flyer, whatsoever. What gives here? What were they doing? What standard practice does this fall under?
Quote: variant256First off, great site, full of great information.
Recently I was in an Indian casino playing a table for several hours. I was ID'd at the cashier for a payout of around four thousand. Almost half of the payout was the original buy-in I used to gamble with. Asking for the ID didn't seem odd to me but then a boss was called and took my ID somewhere for five minutes. I can imagine that maybe they were photocopying it, otherwise why wouldn't they just enter the information in right at the cashier console, in front of me. This is what seemed odd to me. Obviously, I had to wait to be paid until my ID was returned. I filled out no paperwork. Their reasoning was that the ID they had on file was expired from years ago. They used some term "OD". At the same time the year they stated the ID was expired from is completely different from the ID expiration sequence history. I'm certain I had been in this casino in the last couple of years. Assuming they were photocopying, is this standard for everyone. I'm no high roller and not a frequent flyer, whatsoever. What gives here? What were they doing? What standard practice does this fall under?
Welcome to the WOV family! :D Thanks for your compliments! :D II guess they were making sure you weren't on the self exclusion list by doing what they did with the ID. I remember there was a big stink when a woman on the self exclusion list won over $3,000 and when they came to verify her win they found out she was on the SEC and didn't pay her, and kicked her out for trespassing. They put the money she would have been given to Charity IIRC.
Quote: variant256Wow...and I'm guessing that if you add yourself for permanent ban that you can never remove yourself. Not to belittle the collateral damage that both of these types of behaviours cause. Is there a self exclusion (your banned year, 5, life) list for going into taverns or drinkeries? :)
In a casino I overheard a gambler telling another gambler that their sister forced them to put themselves on a life time self exclusion list with the possibility of reinstatement after 5 years at another casino after gambling two days after another sister was killed. They said that months later they asked the Casino to remove them from the self exclusionist since they were being forced to put themselves on the SEC and didn't actually want to go on it. They said the Casino denied the request saying as an adult they should have stood up to their sister and not agreed to go on the SEC.
My guess is they took your ID for approx. 5 minutes and updated your players card information at the players card booth. They would not make a copy for the paperwork they need to do for the $4,000. If they use a modern system, they would scan the ID into the system, along with your address, play history, card level, etc.
Next just say "No thank you".
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Even though they asked for your ID, you had the option to decline. They still would have cashed you out until/unless you reached a total of $10,000.01 for the day.
This is simply false! Many players, and I'm not talking about AP's, have had their chips confiscated or refused for not providing ID.
P.S. The same applys to large TITO amounts as well.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThis is simply false! Many players, and I'm not talking about AP's, have had their chips confiscated or refused for not providing ID.
P.S. The same applys to large TITO amounts as well.
Really? You know it's false that he had the option to decline? Grow up.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Really? You know it's false that he had the option to decline? Grow up.
ZCore13
Nice rebuttal. Just shows I'm 100% correct.
And I'm not saying don't show ID. If you're asked to, just show it.
Quote: Zcore13Even though they asked for your ID, you had the option to decline. They still would have cashed you out until/unless you reached a total of $10,000.01 for the day.
Next just say "No thank you".
ZCore13
They might cash you out but as aces said They also may refuse and just confiscate your chips.
Quote: Zcore13Really? You know it's false that he had the option to decline? Grow up.
ZCore13
A question Zcore. is it possible the 4K might have caused a request for ID, due to the following ? "Because multiple transactions are aggregated for the purpose of Title 31 reporting, casinos create tracking programs to identify large transactions and automatically aggregate them in real time to ensure that they are compliant with the regulations."
I mean there are 3 shifts in the cage in a 24 hour period. Don't they need to know who you are to aggregate large transactions? Just asking.
Quote: HunterhillThey might cash you out but as aces said They also may refuse and just confiscate your chips.
The chances of that are slim and slimmer. Out of the millions of cash outs at casinos every year, you hear a couple of stories and you think that's the norm? It's not.
It's an MTL request. 99.999% of the time, you say no and nothing happens. Even on the rare occurrence you might hear about, there could be more to the story. You guys act like your life is in jeopardy every time you go to a casino and play, count, cashout or do something the casino doesn't like. Hilarious.
ZCore13
Quote: edwardjsmithA question Zcore. is it possible the 4K might have caused a request for ID, due to the following ? "Because multiple transactions are aggregated for the purpose of Title 31 reporting, casinos create tracking programs to identify large transactions and automatically aggregate them in real time to ensure that they are compliant with the regulations."
I mean there are 3 shifts in the cage in a 24 hour period. Don't they need to know who you are to aggregate large transactions? Just asking.
They would have required ID and not allowed the transaction to continue had there been multiple transactions exceeding $10,000 total. The OP did not say he had made any previous cashouts, so I assume it was just the $4,000 that he was cashing out after buying in for some amount less than that.
They do not need to know who you are. They can ask. In most cases, they will use a description. On any given day where I work, we might have 20 or 30 descriptions of people for buyins that we are tracking to make sure they don't exceed $10,000. The cage does the same thing for cashouts. It's an every day occurrence at every casino in the Country.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13You guys act like your life is in jeopardy every time you go to a casino and play, count, cashout or do something the casino doesn't like. Hilarious.
They keep reading too many of ZeKing's threads
ZCore is right, MTL.
Quote: GlenGThey keep reading too many of ZeKing's threads
ZCore is right, MTL.
No. We've had these situations happen to us many times.
Quote: IbeatyouracesNo. We've had these situations happen to us many times.
Sure you have.
ZCore13
Quote: variant256It was a one time cash out after about 4-6 hours of play in high limit table area.
As I originally said, it was most likely just to keep a running total for you in case you play again and reach the $10,000 mark. All casinos do this and have different amounts they start at. As much as I played $1 Spin Poker at MotorCity, I knew theirs was $3000 or higher. Even though they all knew me, I still had to provide ID of my players card for the cameras to see.
Aside from that, I'm pretty sure I have been to this casino on post occasions since.
What does "OD" stand for? This was the term the cashier boss repeated 2 times in response.
They gave me no opportunity to say no. The boss just took the ID and walked away before I could even ask what they were doing.
It just seemed odd to me, as I have been to other casinos in the area and the action of requesting an ID is sporadic, at best.
What is a MTL?
Quote: Zcore13Sure you have.
ZCore13
What's it like viewing the casinos through rose-colored glasses? I've worked in a casino and the way you make the casino seem like everything's all good and fair is simply untrue.
Quote: GlenGThey keep reading too many of ZeKing's threads
ZCore is right, MTL.
When I saw the this thread title, I thought, "Hey, Zenking made a new thread!" ;) Qas surprised Zen didn't start this thread. ;)
What triggers tracking of a hobby player who plays for fun? Amount, standard number of visits? Shared database of transaction compiled amounts?
For instance in the case that there are several casinos within a close geographical location and a hobby player frequents these different locations?
Quote: NathanWhen I saw the this thread title, I thought, "Hey, Zenking made a new thread!" ;) Qas surprised Zen didn't start this thread. ;)
I thought the same thing. Same for the one saying "Hypothetic legal advice"
Quote: RSWhat's it like viewing the casinos through rose-colored glasses? I've worked in a casino and the way you make the casino seem like everything's all good and fair is simply untrue.
I play in them all the time. Comp rooms at Cosmo or Ceasars any time. I live in reality, not rare horror stories. Yes, dumb people make bad decisions sometimes.
When you go to the movies do you tell all the people in the theatre that someone's going to come in shooting because you saw it once on the news?
If you fly do you announce in the cabin that this plane will probably go down because you've heard of plane crashes?
Thousand and thousands of people get requested for ID at casinos cashiers and table games every day and politely say no. I do it myself. It's a request. You can ask them why. If it's for MTL purposes, you can say no. If it's for CTR purposes, you can still say no, but you will not be able to cash out your chips, you will most likely be asked to leave the premises and you will most definitely end up on a Suspicious activity report to the IRS.
ZCore13
Quote: variant256To my knowledge I do not have a players card, unless I had one from years ago.
Aside from that, I'm pretty sure I have been to this casino on post occasions since.
What does "OD" stand for? This was the term the cashier boss repeated 2 times in response.
They gave me no opportunity to say no. The boss just took the ID and walked away before I could even ask what they were doing.
It just seemed odd to me, as I have been to other casinos in the area and the action of requesting an ID is sporadic, at best.
What is a MTL?
Not sure about OD, but MTL is Multiple Transaction Log. Nothing to fear.
Quote: GlenGI thought the same thing. Same for the one saying "Hypothetic legal advice"
Apologies, I don't know Zenking.
I'm just trying to get some factual information as it pertained to what seemed to be an odd transaction with the cashier box.
I have had different experiences, but I thought this one was very different as to : I don't recall any merchant type that takes a persons' ID, walks away with it, out of view or range of the customer.
Now maybe I'm not a customer in a casino and a IDs' purpose is to officially identify an individual, but I still find the information on an ID (imho) to be private personal information.
I find it odd for someone to walk away with an ID out of view of the person of ownership of the ID.
Doesn't anyone feel that way, here? Or is this just BAU?
Quote: variant256Is the 10K threshold for multiple casinos daily or only under one casino corp.?
What triggers tracking of a hobby player who plays for fun? Amount, standard number of visits? Shared database of transaction compiled amounts?
For instance in the case that there are several casinos within a close geographical location and a hobby player frequents these different locations?
$10k threshold is for a single casino within their 24-hour day. Most casinos' "day" isn't 12a-12a, but something like 2a-2a or 4a-4a.
Generally, if you cash out $3k+ at a time, they'll make a note of it on an MTL (Multiple Transaction Log), so that if/when you cross the $10k barrier, they'll file a CTR on you. The entire process is to thwart structuring, where people cash out amounts less than $10k to avoid a CTR, which is typically done (AFAIK) by people who are laundering money or doing some illegal activity....although some may structure their cashouts simply to avoid showing ID. Structuring is illegal, btw.
At the table, you'll generally be tracked once your buy-in exceeds $3k, although some may do it immediately, especially if you have a big initial buy in, like $2k or $2500...or you're a frequent player who's likely to get in for $10k+. One guy I dealt to would buy in for a few hundred at a time, but the bosses would track him as soon as he started playing, because he'd be in for $20k by the end of the night (he'd be doing sh** like $400 hilo, hopping hardways for a few hundred, etc.).
Quote: Zcore13The chances of that are slim and slimmer. Out of the millions of cash outs at casinos every year, you hear a couple of stories and you think that's the norm? It's not.
It's an MTL request. 99.999% of the time, you say no and nothing happens. Even on the rare occurrence you might hear about, there could be more to the story. You guys act like your life is in jeopardy every time you go to a casino and play, count, cashout or do something the casino doesn't like. Hilarious.
ZCore13
It's more common than you think,we know of more incidents because we talk to other Aps.
For the average customer it's a non issue.
You think these incidents don't happen,yet Somehow Bob Nersesian has more business than he can handle.
Casinos use this tactic to get players names.
Tribal casinos get away with it others get sued.
Quote: Hunterhill
For the average customer it's a non issue.
*every
Only the paranoid will make it an issue
Quote: HunterhillIt's more common than you think,we know of more incidents because we talk to other Aps.
For the average customer it's a non issue.
You think these incidents don't happen,yet Somehow Bob Nersesian has more business than he can handle.
Casinos use this tactic to get players names.
Tribal casinos get away with it others get sued.
Right, I don't really care to allow the casino to have my name, alone personal information on my ID. I don't mean to be offensive about it, nor try to seem like I'm skirting the system. I'm just tired of every street corner, store, bank, etc., having a video came recording everything. I realize that this is the day and age we live in, but shit, I'd like to pick my nose every now and then, in privacy.
Anyone feel the same?
Quote: GlenG*every
Only the paranoid will make it an issue
Maybe do a little research before being so sure of yourself.
Bob Nersesian has won several cases for players that casinos refused to cash out ,if the player didnt show Id.
Quote: GlenG*every
Only the paranoid will make it an issue
No Offence...but shouldn't it be fair to still be able to protect ones' privacy and not be labelled as being paranoid?
I'm not saying you would necessarily feel or make it that sort of situation. I'm just saying can't a person still have a bit of privacy?
I understand that the casino maintains the right to serve or not serve who they want, and I have the choice of simply not playing there.
Quote: HunterhillIt's more common than you think,we know of more incidents because we talk to other Aps.
For the average customer it's a non issue.
You think these incidents don't happen,yet Somehow Bob Nersesian has more business than he can handle.
Casinos use this tactic to get players names.
Tribal casinos get away with it others get sued.
Ok, so you know of how many? A dozen? Two dozen? Three dozen? An attorney with 5 cases might be more than he could handle at once.
So let's say you know of two dozen incidents. And I know of tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands that nothing happens. No ID granted and nobody cares. Is this now a regular event or a rare incorrectly handled situation?
Do people get kicked out of Starbucks for sitting every day multiple times a day, or just once that made the news? Every business has their issues. Restaraunts, banks, stores. Because an incident happens on occasion doesn't make every one of them bad or corrupt.
ZCore13
Quote: variant256No Offence...but shouldn't it be fair to still be able to protect ones' privacy and not be labelled as being paranoid?
I'm not saying you would necessarily feel or make it that sort of situation. I'm just saying can't a person still have a bit of privacy?
I understand that the casino maintains the right to serve or not serve who they want, and I have the choice of simply not playing there.
You chose to give them your ID. They asked and you obliged. You willingly gave up your privacy. Don't do it next time.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Ok, so you know of how many? A dozen? Two dozen? Three dozen? An attorney with 5 cases might be more than he could handle at once.
So let's say you know of two dozen incidents. And I know of tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands that nothing happens. No ID granted and nobody cares. Is this now a regular event or a rare incorrectly handled situation?
Do people get kicked out of Starbucks for sitting every day multiple times a day, or just once that made the news? Every business has their issues. Restaraunts, banks, stores. Because an incident happens on occasion doesn't make every one of them bad or corrupt.
ZCore13
NO,Thats why I said for most players its a non issue.
But just the fact that it happens two dozen times is too many.
Quote: HunterhillNO,Thats why I said for most players its a non issue.
But just the fact that it happens two dozen times is too many.
I agree.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13You chose to give them your ID. They asked and you obliged. You willingly gave up your privacy. Don't do it next time.
ZCore13
I really didn't choose to give them ID. They asked for it with the intention to cash my chips. They never disclosed that I had an option to refuse.
Is this standard practice?
If not, then it seems to me that they are planning on using it for some purposes that are not in my best benefit. That seems shady.
Quote: Zcore13Ok, so you know of how many? A dozen? Two dozen? Three dozen? An attorney with 5 cases might be more than he could handle at once.
So let's say you know of two dozen incidents. And I know of tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands that nothing happens. No ID granted and nobody cares. Is this now a regular event or a rare incorrectly handled situation?
Do people get kicked out of Starbucks for sitting every day multiple times a day, or just once that made the news? Every business has their issues. Restaraunts, banks, stores. Because an incident happens on occasion doesn't make every one of them bad or corrupt.
ZCore13
You know of tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of times when someone refuses to show ID and there's no problem? Dude, come on, but that's complete bullsh**! At least make something up that's believable. 99.99% w/e of the time the player simply just shows ID, but you're saying there's tens or hundreds of thousands of times when they're asked to show ID, they don't, and there's no problem? ROFL.
Quote: Zcore13
Thousand and thousands of people get requested for ID at casinos cashiers and table games every day and politely say no. I do it myself. It's a request. You can ask them why. If it's for MTL purposes, you can say no. If it's for CTR purposes, you can still say no, but you will not be able to cash out your chips, you will most likely be asked to leave the premises and you will most definitely end up on a Suspicious activity report to the IRS.
ZCore is 100% correct. I teach classes to casinos about this and am heading to Reno this week to give refresher classes.
Quote: DRichZCore is 100% correct. I teach classes to casinos about this and am heading to Reno this week to give refresher classes.
What he said is correct,but what is also correct is that some casinos abuse this just to get players names.
Quote: HunterhillWhat he said is correct,but what is also correct is that some casinos abuse this just to get players names.
We've already agreed that is true and it is wrong. But it is also rare. You are more likely to be killed in a car accident tomorrow, or get shot, or probably even drown, than have your chips taken from you by Staff at a casino.
ZCore13
can visually inspect it and declined to allow them
to touch take it etc.. It puts them in a very
difficult situation if they want to copy/scan it.
You have complied with their rules by allowing them visual
access, giving them possession of your property is
a whole different matter. If you are articulate
and understand their rules and procedures you
can sometimes embarrass them into
submission.
Quote: rainmanFor fun I have just held my ID up so they
can visually inspect it and declined to allow them
to touch take it etc.. It puts them in a very
difficult situation if they want to copy/scan it.
You have complied with their rules by allowing them visual
access, giving them possession of your property is
a whole different matter. If you are articulate
and understand their rules and procedures you
can sometimes embarrass them into
submission.
fyi-I tried posting again, but it appears this site restricts the number of posts a new member can post in a day. Understandable, especially as it pertains to preventing spam posts, but in an instance when a topic like this goes off in different directions, the OP may need more posts to realign to the original OP question.
While this may be fun with a couple hundred dollars of chips waiting to be cashed out, when its a few thousand, it seems that this wouldn't be the best time to protest against having to share your ID.
I'm still not of the belief that if a customer refused to show ID when asked, that they wouldn't reap some form of punishment as it pertains to being welcomed for future casino visits.
On another note, do casinos plant seed players to manipulate the play?
I'm late to the party, but thought I'd re-iterate (or if no one else has stated)... This is very common. Most places will ID for a threshold of about $2500-$3000. It's usually for them to keep track for CTR and SAR reporting requirements.Quote: variant256First off, great site, full of great information.
Recently I was in an Indian casino playing a table for several hours. I was ID'd at the cashier for a payout of around four thousand...
I'm not advocating "structuring" (purposefully cashing out smaller amounts to avoid a CTR @ ~$10k) but in order to simply avoid this headache next time cash out like $1600 on 3 separate occasions (different cages, hours/days apart, etc). This will avoid the need for the ID (assuming it was from reporting purposes and not card counting / AP purposes). Again, I'm not saying to avoid IRS reporting, but if you're under the reporting limits just make it easier on yourself and cash out in smaller chunks.
