2016 Election -- Part II
Poll
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| | 10 votes (8.4%) | ||
| | 4 votes (3.36%) | ||
| | 3 votes (2.52%) |
119 members have voted
Quote: JoeshlabotnikWell, no surprises. Trump repeated his third-grader-on-the-playground mantra of "Cheaters! Cheaters! Cheaters!" and threatened to take his ball and go home. There was some discussion of policy, but it was mostly idiotic crap from Trump like his statement that he would instantly overturn Roe v. Wade--as if a President has to power to nullify Supreme Court decisions!
What are you talking about?
Quote: MathExtremistThe question is what kind of economy will support a society where most people don't need to work but still need to eat and live in buildings? It may be a UBI, it may be a non-capitalist society altogether. And the shorter-term question is how to we transition between our current capitalist economy to that one without widespread riots?
But the worst thing we can do is pretend that the economic shifts I'm talking about aren't going to happen. They're already happening. That's why Trump has so many supporters. The rug of the old economy has been pulled out from under them, and nobody's put a new rug down yet.
Ubi sounds pretty good and I don't know many alternatives. It's nice to think will be living in star trek after that. I hope our seemingly inevitable fascist swing is a stop on that route.
But, I see a lot of problems. Are average people happy when they have no role or purpose in life? Yes, some will be thrilled to sit around writing bad poetry. But will would be mechanics and small businessowners?
If we rely on the authorities to directly provide our sustenance, how do we maintain a culture of freedom?
We're in a period where elites are pulling out all the stops to make sure, not only that they have as much as possible, but that the rest have as little as possible. We've been moving to a third world/Russia module for decades. Why will they suddenly change their minds?
If common people are largely useless, except as consumers, perhaps theyll be treated like surfs.
I fear what we'll really see is more of what we see already, with mass incarceration, endless war, and so forth. We know that's the direction for at least eight more years.
Quote: RigondeauxI fear what we'll really see is more of what we see already, with mass incarceration, endless war, and so forth. We know that's the direction for at least eight more years.
In the future...
Young people will spend their days in sport competition. (the best substitute for war)
Older people in VR,
Anyone left who is complaining too much will be turned into Soylent Green.
Bon Appétit!
Quote:
Clinton Nukes Trump's Remaining Chances
I don't care how sure others are about Trump losing, I'm not relaxing until I see the electoral count out of reach for him on election night.
http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/NECK-AND-NECK-Gore-concedes-to-Bush-then-3236618.php
I can't defend Trump because I don't really believe that he is talking about the validity of the actual vote count...but I can't really tell from the way he talks about it. I think his issues have more to do with the leanings of press coverage, the behind-the-scenes things done to Bernie by the Dems, and things like that. The vote, after all, is the vote. Barring another Florida, there isn't much to say once the votes are counted and reported. Is he talking about the possibility of him winning the vote and not the electoral college? That situation can be in play every cycle; it still changes nothing.
...but he is not the first and will likely not be the last to question the vote...Gore definitely did.
I don't think Trump will be challenging it come election day. I think his margin of loss will likely answer all of his questions.
Please find me some examples of Al Gore whining about the vote count 3 weeks before the election.
Florida state law mandated the recount, NOT Al Gore.
Righties: if you're best defense is "Al Gore did it too," you are LOSING the argument.
Quote: ams288The Al Gore comparisons are complete and utter BS.
Please find me some examples of Al Gore whining about the vote count 3 weeks before the election.
Florida state law mandated the recount, NOT Al Gore.
Righties: if you're best defense is "Al Gore did it too," you are LOSING the argument.
Agree 100%, no one should ever want to be compared to Al Gore. The 90s will forever be known for having the 2 worst VPs in US history.
Quote: ams288The Al Gore comparisons are complete and utter BS.
Expected response. Nothing any Republican does is ever comparable to anything a Democrat does. Amazing!!
(...and before that other persons starts his daily posting deluge, I did already say that there likely won't be anything to whine about since the margin of victory...for Hillary...will be large...and that I am not writing to "defend" Trump at all...I am sure that won't matter, but I am putting it out there...)
I do think Gore is not an apt comparison at this time.
Brief by memory synopsis; please see link above for actual numbers and time line.
1. He won the popular vote by ~ 600,000 votes, but appeared to have lost the EC on election night. So he conceded.
2. Florida results mandated a recount. It had been projected Bush by the networks, and they were wrong to call it. It turned late in the evening, and most if not all networks retracted their call.
3. There was a specific skewed result in Palm Beach County, heavily Democratic, where something like 27000 people, mostly elderly, had voted for Pat Buchanan, about 30x the vote expected for him there from polling. Turned out the butterfly ballot, with alternating punch out choices, had confused a lot of people who intended to vote for Gore, many of whom protested their vote was misrepresented, in much larger numbers than the vote count difference.
4. So at some point in the next 24-48 hours, Gore retracted his concession pending several determinations in the recount and Palm Beach results.
5. Even though the recount was still underway, and there were various biased moves by Jeb Bush, SOS Kathleen Harris, and the FL Supreme Court, Gore conceded once the SCOTUS ruled, for the good of the country.
Seems to me, he did the right thing the whole way as the situation evolved. You can't compress this into a comparative sound byte with Trump's stance. False equivalency. Total spin.
Quote: RonCExpected response. Nothing any Republican does is ever comparable to anything a Democrat does. Amazing!!
It's certainly not comparable in this case.
Quote:1. On election night, several television networks called Florida for George W. Bush, clinching the electoral college — although Gore would end up winning about 500,000 more votes. Gore called Bush to concede.
2. Then the networks uncalled Florida — and Gore unconceded, realizing that he was ahead in the popular vote and if he ended up winning Florida he would have won the election. The election was literally too close to call.
3. A legally mandated recount began.
4. Bush (not Gore) sued to stop recounts in some counties.
5. Gore sued to extend deadlines for recounts.
6. The Florida Supreme Court ordered a more extensive recount. Bush (not Gore) appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court.
7. The U.S. Supreme Court stopped the recount.
8. Gore conceded.
Quote: ams288It's certainly not comparable in this case.
Quote:1. On election night, several television networks called Florida for George W. Bush, clinching the electoral college — although Gore would end up winning about 500,000 more votes. Gore called Bush to concede.
2. Then the networks uncalled Florida — and Gore unconceded, realizing that he was ahead in the popular vote and if he ended up winning Florida he would have won the election. The election was literally too close to call.
3. A legally mandated recount began.
4. Bush (not Gore) sued to stop recounts in some counties.
5. Gore sued to extend deadlines for recounts.
6. The Florida Supreme Court ordered a more extensive recount. Bush (not Gore) appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court.
7. The U.S. Supreme Court stopped the recount.
8. Gore conceded.
...and he eventually accepted the results of the election (I guess; people still whine about it). Trump will accept the results of the election. It will not be close.
End of story.
I can't believe a third of my countryman are.voting for this buffoon.
Quote: billryanTrump supporters are retweeting another option- the second amendment. Twist.
I can't believe a third of my countryman are.voting for this buffoon.
...and some Hillary supporters are actually creating riots at trump rallies.
There are enough stupid people on both sides to go around.
I don't find any of it mind boggling; civility is not very important in our society anymore and our politics reflect it.
"It is hard to think of an innocent reason why Democrats spend so much time, energy and money, scarce resources all, resisting attempts to purge the voter rolls, that is to remove people who are dead or otherwise have left the jurisdiction. It's hard to think of an innocent reason why they fight so tremendously against Voter I.D. laws. They say, well that burdens the exercise of a fundamental right. The Supreme Court has said that travel is a fundamental right and no one thinks that showing an I.D. at the airport burdens that fundamental right."
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/17/george_will_trump_has_point_that_elections_are_rigged_if_he_would_just_make_it_more_clearly.html
Quote: RonCTrump-hater George Will isn't so sure about elections either...
Yes, he's a Trump hater.
But he's also a right wing Republican. They have been obsessed with making it as hard as possible for minorities, students, poor people, etc. to vote for ages now. So this op-ed isn't surprising coming from him.
What a stupid comment from a candidate who already has problems winning over women voters.
www.NastyWomenGetShitDone.com now redirects to Hillary's website.
http://www.vox.com/2016/10/20/13342580/trump-nasty-woman-insult-clinton-debate
Quote: ams288"Such a nasty woman." - Donald Trump
What a stupid comment from a candidate who already has problems winning over women voters.
www.NastyWomenGetShitDone.com now redirects to Hillary's website.
http://www.vox.com/2016/10/20/13342580/trump-nasty-woman-insult-clinton-debate
You have to give him credit, he says what he thinks. That alone is rare for a politician. He wasn't the best candidate, but he was refreshing in a PC crazy world.
And I for one will laugh at the "I don't remember" commercial for years to come. Yea, it is funny and we all have laughed at stuff like that over the years. Most just won't admit it.
Trump obviously stayed at his own hotel.
I'm just curious. I tried to google it and I couldn't find the answer.
Quote: ams288Here's a random question, but this is a Vegas board after all: Does anyone know what hotel Hillary stayed at in Vegas before the debate?
Trump obviously stayed at his own hotel.
I'm just curious. I tried to google it and I couldn't find the answer.
Isn't it more likely she stayed in a private mansion? Probably easier for necessary security.
Quote: SOOPOOIsn't it more likely she stayed in a private mansion? Probably easier for necessary security.
Same thought I had. Lots of nice places around Vegas. And they had a lot of time to plan ahead.
If I were planning it, I would put her in The Signature. Short direct motorcade from the airport and to UNLV with no need to shutdown LV Blvd. Short distance from the elevator to the car with minimal public interaction.Quote: ams288Here's a random question, but this is a Vegas board after all: Does anyone know what hotel Hillary stayed at in Vegas before the debate?
Trump obviously stayed at his own hotel.
I'm just curious. I tried to google it and I couldn't find the answer.
Edit: The above is probably naive on my part. There is probably a VIP back way in and out of MGM completely hidden from the public.
Quote: RonCExpected response. Nothing any Republican does is ever comparable to anything a Democrat does. Amazing!!
Gore's reaction to a very close and disputed actual election is not, in fact, comparable to Trump's whining about an election that hasn't even happened yet.
It's symptomatic of just how flaccid the Republicans have gotten that this comparison is all that they can come up with to defend Trump.
Quote: RonCTrump-hater George Will isn't so sure about elections either...
Anyone with any sense of common decency should be a Trump-hater. That said, Will is a dedicated righty and has been an apologist for the Republiholes' farces for years.
I suppose that "the Democrats rig elections" will be a persistent Republican meme now. Of course, their aggressive gerrymandering, their continual attempts to keep the inferior classes from being able to vote--naah, that's not election-rigging.
Quote: SOOPOOIsn't it more likely she stayed in a private mansion? Probably easier for necessary security.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense and that would explain why I can't find any info on where she stayed.
I know the Clintons have stayed at Mandalay Bay before when in Vegas for speeches and other events.
The only information I could find was this article detailing the roads that were closed for their motorcades:
http://www.reviewjournal.com/politics/motorcades-clinton-trump-cause-few-traffic-problems
Quote: BozYou have to give him credit, he says what he thinks. That alone is rare for a politician. He wasn't the best candidate, but he was refreshing in a PC crazy world.
And I for one will laugh at the "I don't remember" commercial for years to come. Yea, it is funny and we all have laughed at stuff like that over the years. Most just won't admit it.
Why do we have to give him credit for saying whatever bubbles to the surface of his child-brain? Your drunk uncle Dan always says what he thinks. That's why you dread having him over for Thanksgiving. He'll dominate the conversation, "share" his political views with everyone whether they want to hear them or not, and finally, barf on the turkey.
I'm rather sick of seeing people say that common decency is "PC." Now, it appears that acting like an adult (such as not interrupting your opponent in the middle of a debate response) is also "PC." So people who are rude, nasty, and don't want to follow the rules are just being refreshingly non-PC. Hmmm. Maybe in the near future, dentists will consider administering anesthetic prior to a root canal to be PC as well.
Quote: ams288Yeah, I guess that makes sense and that would explain why I can't find any info on where she stayed.
I know the Clintons have stayed at Mandalay Bay before when in Vegas for speeches and other events.
The only information I could find was this article detailing the roads that were closed for their motorcades:
http://www.reviewjournal.com/politics/motorcades-clinton-trump-cause-few-traffic-problems
Looks like Clinton got long hauled.Quote:After Clinton delivered a brief speech, her motorcade traveled south on I-15, prompting another round of closures to McCarran International Airport.
There are two real problems with trying to do that right now -- a financial one and a political one. If you could press a magic button and give everyone enough food, shelter, and health care, frankly, that sounds like being retired. Why bother working in the first place? But if enough people make that choice, we don't have the income tax base you think we do and then tax rates need to be in excess of 100% to pay for everything. So that's not sustainable now because we haven't yet hit the "everything's automated" scenario where we actually can put food on the table without humans working for it.Quote: JoeshlabotnikIf we had any problem with providing the basics, we wouldn't be able to support our immensely bloated military without there being food riots in the streets. The fact that we have the luxury of all that waste suggests to me that we could meet the 19% goal with room to spare. If you can't make the numbers work in a given scenario, just cut military spending by 20%--meaning that we won't be able to blow up EVERYBODY we want to blow up--and you're there easily.
The political problem is that there is significant opposition to statist mandates in this country, especially when it comes to socialist policies like you're describing. In the U.S. at least, you won't get to socialism based on political origins, it will have to come from economic ones. There are a lot of things we could do with policy to change that but there's not a critical mass of demand for it now. The economy first needs to veer toward post-capitalism by itself (via hyperproduction and increased technological unemployment) before it starts making sense to look at policy solutions. Just look at the vehement opposition to the ACA. That's a philosophical dispute, not an economic one: there are a lot of people in this country who think the government has no right to tax them at all. It's an asinine viewpoint, but that's what we're working with. The question is how we get to a post-capitalist, post-employment society in a peaceful way despite that minority viewpoint. You'll never get there from the ground up by asking people to willingly hand over 57% of their income and trusting the government to provide them bread and circuses. That appetite just isn't here and never has been.
We must have watched a different debate.Quote: ams288She's killing him again.
Maybe not quite the blowout the 1st debate was, but close.
The general theme in these debates has been Trump comes in, has a good first 20-30 minutes where he's not sniffing, and Hillary just continues to needle him until he loses his composure. Not what I want in my POTUS. Cool, calm, collected, thoughtful, deliberate, tactical, and smart, everything that Hillary has shown us so far.
This isn't close. I mean I get it that the country is pretty evenly divided and that half of us are going to tow the party line, but at some point (I believe we passed that point a looooooooooong time ago), being an American supersedes being a Republican.
No, Gore accepted that he lost the process. The results of the actual election were that the voters in Palm Beach were disenfranchised and, correcting for that error, Gore wins Florida and the presidency. He conceded because he was willing to put the harmony of the country above his own personal ambitions, and also because he didn't view his opponent as a nasty woman with hate in her heart.Quote: RonC...and he eventually accepted the results of the election (I guess; people still whine about it). Trump will accept the results of the election. It will not be close.
And he certainly didn't challenge the legitimacy of the election process itself several months prior to the election. No presidential candidate ever has, except Trump.
You're basically drawing an equivalency between Gore complaining about legitimate voter confusion in Palm Beach after the vote with Trump complaining about widespread conspiracy to rig the votes around the country months before the election. But that's not a legitimate comparison at all. This is the same Trump who says "The only way we can lose, in my opinion -- and I really mean this, Pennsylvania -- is if cheating goes on." In Pennsylvania, where he's polling behind by more than 6%, he's already pre-ordained that when he loses it's because the results were rigged.
Trump is speaking right now at a rally where he's saying these things. He is laying the groundwork for his voters -- and he will probably have more than 50M of them -- to feel cheated by the U.S. democratic process. Many of these voters have publicly discussed violence on social media, including mentions of coups and assassinations. Trump is doing nothing to calm that mob rage; if anything, he is stoking those flames. There will likely be violence on voting day and the days that follow. Trump will be responsible for that violence. Nobody -- regardless of their political views -- should be supporting that.
Quote: AxelWolfWe must have watched a different debate.
Most likely.
Hillary Clinton's 3 Debate Performances Left the Trump Campaign in Ruins
The best thing about that article is how plain it makes the fact that Hillary outmaneuvered Trump. Trump spent so much time complaining how Obama and Clinton got outplayed by Iran or Russia, and then he himself gets outplayed by Clinton in the debates and doesn't even recognize it because he's too angry (which was largely the point).Quote: ams288Most likely.
Hillary Clinton's 3 Debate Performances Left the Trump Campaign in Ruins
It's like watching me play 1-on-1 against Steph Curry. I'd get demolished. One difference between me and Trump is that I wouldn't complain that Steph was rigging the game.
Quote: gamerfreakI thought Trump did well in the third debate, aside from the hombres comment, the "Nasty Woman" comment, and saying he isn't sure if he'll accept the outcome of the election if he loses.
You can't make this up:
Quote: Donald Trump, 10/20/2016I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters and to all of the people of the United States that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election, if I win.
Quote: MathExtremistThere are two real problems with trying to do that right now -- a financial one and a political one. If you could press a magic button and give everyone enough food, shelter, and health care, frankly, that sounds like being retired. Why bother working in the first place? But if enough people make that choice, we don't have the income tax base you think we do and then tax rates need to be in excess of 100% to pay for everything. So that's not sustainable now because we haven't yet hit the "everything's automated" scenario where we actually can put food on the table without humans working for it.
The political problem is that there is significant opposition to statist mandates in this country, especially when it comes to socialist policies like you're describing. In the U.S. at least, you won't get to socialism based on political origins, it will have to come from economic ones. There are a lot of things we could do with policy to change that but there's not a critical mass of demand for it now. The economy first needs to veer toward post-capitalism by itself (via hyperproduction and increased technological unemployment) before it starts making sense to look at policy solutions. Just look at the vehement opposition to the ACA. That's a philosophical dispute, not an economic one: there are a lot of people in this country who think the government has no right to tax them at all. It's an asinine viewpoint, but that's what we're working with. The question is how we get to a post-capitalist, post-employment society in a peaceful way despite that minority viewpoint. You'll never get there from the ground up by asking people to willingly hand over 57% of their income and trusting the government to provide them bread and circuses. That appetite just isn't here and never has been.
The essential objection has always been a practical one: remove one of the basic incentives to work (survival) and some people won't work at all--they will be content to be parasites. I think that can be solved in a number of ways. First, social approbation. If you sit around and collect government largesse but do nothing, that can be stigmatized. It already is to some extent. Second, removing the need to simply survive allows people to innovate, to specialize, and to take risks. That may convey economic benefit far in excess of the drag caused by the freeloaders. Third, allow people to contribute in non-income-generating ways, and allow that to count as credit toward one's social obligation.
Quote: MathExtremistYou can't make this up:
Quote: Donald Trump, 10/20/2016I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters and to all of the people of the United States that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election, if I win.
The best absurd quote ever. (or at least this week)
Quote: rxwineQuote: MathExtremistYou can't make this up:
Quote: Donald Trump, 10/20/2016I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters and to all of the people of the United States that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election, if I win.
The best absurd quote ever. (or at least this week)
Did he actually say that? If so, it sounds like self-satire, something that is way beyond the intellectual depth of a retarded orangutan.
Quote: gamerfreakI thought Trump did well in the third debate, aside from the hombres comment, the "Nasty Woman" comment, and saying he isn't sure if he'll accept the outcome of the election if he loses.
I'll agree with anyone who says it was his best of three. (backhanded compliment if I do say so myself)
Quote: JoeshlabotnikQuote: rxwineQuote: MathExtremistYou can't make this up:
Quote: Donald Trump, 10/20/2016I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters and to all of the people of the United States that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election, if I win.
The best absurd quote ever. (or at least this week)
Did he actually say that? If so, it sounds like self-satire, something that is way beyond the intellectual depth of a retarded orangutan.
Yes he did.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37722434
I don't deny those are factors that will work once AI-driven productivity can supplant human labor, but we're not there yet. The system can't work when there's still a stigma about not working, and the reason there's a stigma about not working is that there's too much work to be done. When systemic unemployment is 50% because robots are doing all the grunt work, that stigma will be gone. The mere fact that you used the word parasites is proof of that. Nobody thinks of their children as parasites but they're "freeloaders" as you're using the word...Quote: JoeshlabotnikThe essential objection has always been a practical one: remove one of the basic incentives to work (survival) and some people won't work at all--they will be content to be parasites. I think that can be solved in a number of ways. First, social approbation. If you sit around and collect government largesse but do nothing, that can be stigmatized. It already is to some extent. Second, removing the need to simply survive allows people to innovate, to specialize, and to take risks. That may convey economic benefit far in excess of the drag caused by the freeloaders. Third, allow people to contribute in non-income-generating ways, and allow that to count as credit toward one's social obligation.
And I'm all in favor of removing barriers to innovation and risk-taking. In the U.S., we have a huge structural problem in our entrepreneur economy that doesn't exist in other countries, and it's making us less competitive. Basically, the folks who are most likely to succeed as entrepreneurs are systemically discouraged from trying because they have kids at home and need a stable income and health benefits that most-affordably come from an employer. I bucked that trend (I took the risk to work for myself and pay for my own health insurance) but I am in the vast, vast minority. So you most often end up with entrepreneurs who are either in their mid-20s (plenty of ambition, too little experience, no kids yet) or in their mid-50s (plenty of experience, waning ambition, kids in college), with the sweet spot of folks in their 30s-40s with school-age children being discouraged from jumping in. I am in a small angel fund vetting new investments right now and this is exactly what we're seeing from the founders coming in. The best thing we could do to jump start the entrepreneur economy is provide affordable non-employer-based health insurance. It doesn't need to be state-funded, just affordable. I'm paying over $1000/month for a high-deductible plan. Too few entrepreneurs can afford that, but that won't change unless the tax breaks for health coverage that go to big businesses somehow get shifted to the individuals who are trying to start small ones.
Upon learning of his loss, he will smile, shake Clinton's hand, and proclaim "We did it".
You heard it here first.
Quote: MathExtremistYou can't make this up:
Quote: Donald Trump, 10/20/2016I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters and to all of the people of the United States that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election, if I win.
Oh. My. Gawd.
Get out the armbands and jackboots.
Fire the FEC; there won't be an election in 2020.
Hide your daughters.
That's what happens first. Second is that Clinton appoints Trump as ambassador to Russia.Quote: FaceAll these suppositions on what he's gonna do when he loses, how come no one's yet touched on the obvious? I guess I'll put on my seer's hat and give mine...
Upon learning of his loss, he will smile, shake Clinton's hand, and proclaim "We did it".
You heard it here first.
Here's a scary thought, though: if we're predicting violence as a result of Trump's current election-rigging rhetoric, imagine what would happen when 50M people realize they were bamboozled and that the election really was rigged by the guy they voted for?
Nice choice of words.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/transcript-palin-endorses-trump-no-pussy-footin-article-1.2502732
Quote: MathExtremistQuote: Donald Trump, 10/20/2016I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters and to all of the people of the United States that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election, if I win.
Yes, it's a stupid thing to say.
Far be it from me to defend Donald Trump, but I actually do think this one was said somewhat "tongue in cheek."
If you watch the video of him saying it, he prefaced it with something along the lines of "I have a huge announcement to make." He's playing the media. It's all they've been talking about since last night's debate. He knew saying this would get their attention and keep them talking. Donald Trump is, after all, the world's biggest and orange-est attention whore.
Quote: billryanI often hear this, but no one ever says what percent of income they receive.
Are they receiving 45% of the overall income? Are we only talking income taxes?
Over 95% of Americans pay payroll taxes on their entire incomes. Billionaires pay it only on the first $78,000 of income.
According to The Tax Policy Center, the top 1% had 16.5% of the total income in 2015, and paid 43.6% of federal income taxes.
When you factor in payroll, corporate, and other federal taxes, the percentage they pay for all federal taxes drops to 27.9%.
Tax Policy Center
