2016 Election -- Part II

Quote: MichaelBluejay

There's nothing hypocritical about having losses that wipe out your taxes. It would be extremely unfair and unreasonable if we *couldn't* use losses to offset income.

No one is alleging he did anything illegal. Anyone would take advantage of the loopholes like he has. But anyone is not running for President...

There is absolutely hypocrisy in running a campaign saying that America's infrastructure is failing apart, that America's veterans aren't being cared for, etc. and then having it turn out that Trump has likely paid no federal income tax for years and years.

Trump says Hillary's body guards should disarm because of her 2nd Amendment views. Trump should have to pay for his secret service protection out of his pocket. American taxpayers are footing that bill. That doesn't seem right.

Quote: ams288

No one is alleging he did anything illegal. Anyone would take advantage of the loopholes like he has. But anyone is not running for President...

There is absolutely hypocrisy in running a campaign saying that America's infrastructure is failing apart, that America's veterans aren't being cared for, etc. and then having it turn out that Trump has likely paid no federal income tax for years and years.

Trump says Hillary's body guards should disarm because of her 2nd Amendment views. Trump should have to pay for his secret service protection out of his pocket. American taxpayers are footing that bill. That doesn't seem right.

Nor is it right that so many have figured out it pays more to work Part Time instead of FT based on Earned Income Credit. It's not right that some people have short dicks or are simply ugly. What is fair or right? That's why we have elections, and in this country the majority* rules.

* Majority equals people who actually vote in states that matter.

Quote: Paradigm

Did you want to comment on the Solyndra fiasco at this point...it seems relevant.

Sure, every failure potentially costs votes if a President has something to do with it.

If you're going to tell me Democrats are the only ones who show bias I'll LOL.

Quote: Boz

Nor is it right that so many have figured out it pays more to work Part Time instead of FT based on Earned Income Credit. It's not right that some people have short dicks or are simply ugly. What is fair or right? That's why we have elections, and in this country the majority* rules.

Hey it's not right that the IRS let's any refund expire in 3 years if it's not collected, yet doesn't forgive tax penalties if it's over 3 years. Or 5 years, Or 8 years...

Guess they only have room for penalties.

Quote: ams288

Anyone would take advantage of the loopholes like he has. But anyone is not running for President.

You think not paying taxes on losses is a loophole?! Seriously?

Quote: ams288

There is absolutely hypocrisy in running a campaign saying that America's infrastructure is failing apart, that America's veterans aren't being cared for, etc. and then having it turn out that Trump has likely paid no federal income tax for years and years.

Even though he effectively had no income that was subject to tax? What, you think he should have paid taxes on his losses? That's...bizarre.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

You think not paying taxes on losses is a loophole?! Seriously?

Even though he teffectively had no income that was subject to tax? What, you think he should have paid taxes on his losses? That's...bizarre.

No it's typical of the liberal mentality. You had 100 million on January 1st. So what if you have $95 million on December 31st. It's still too much and you had to have cheated along the line get it.

Quote: ams288

No one is alleging he did anything illegal. Anyone would take advantage of the loopholes like he has. But anyone is not running for President...

There is no helping him MBJ...he has not idea what a loophole is...he should be talking about the carried interest actual "loophole" that hedgefund managers use, but he doesn't understand that either...yet on he goes using terms like "loophole" without a concrete understanding of what that means. It is par for the ams288 course.

Evidently ams288 believes that if you run for President you shouldn't compute your taxes under the law, but rather just write checks to the US Treasury and forget about the IRC & Treasury Regulations lest you be accused of "taking advantage of the loopholes". You see paying your taxes according to what the law required, isn't paying your fair share according to ams288...in fact this is his example of "hypocrisy". In order to not by hypocritical, Trump should have concluded that even though he doesn't owe any taxes under the law, he should be sending $ to the US Treasury because the federal government has been incompetent in keeping up infrastructure and taking care of VA, etc. with the taxes they have legally collected.

Once again, ams288's positions on taxes and all things financial are laughable.

Dream on. Even if they could get the bill heard, they're in recess until after the election.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Dream on. Even if they could get the bill heard, they're in recess until after the election.

What would this bill say BBB? If you have tax losses and are deemed rich, you should send in $$ to the US Treasury anyway? You are smarter than that and you know it!

Republicans: Trickle down economics works!
Democrats: Nope. It doesn't.
Trump: I'm a billionaire who pays no federal income tax.
Republicans: ....
Democrats: lololololol
Republicans: Genius!!!

Quote: ams288

Republicans: Trickle down economics works!
Democrats: Nope. It doesn't.
Trump: I'm a billionaire who pays no federal income tax.
Republicans: ....
Democrats: lololololol
Republicans: Genius!!!

ams288: I really have no response to my ridiculous use of the term "Loophole"...let me change the subject to some general gibberish
The Rest of the Forum: lolololol

Quote: Paradigm

ams288: I really have no response to my ridiculous use of the term "Loophole"...let me change the subject to some general gibberish
The Rest of the Forum: lolololol

I like how much it bothers you. So I will continue to call anything that allows a "billionaire" like Trump to avoid paying federal income taxes a "loophole."

#sorrynotsorry

I'm no expert on labyrinthine business taxes -- my business is a Schedule D LLC -- but how is it that someone whose businesses have net operating losses somehow manages to pay no personal income tax? The three pages posted by the NY Times are not Federal returns, as some have reported, but are individual pages from three different state returns.

I don't think anyone's really faulting Trump for taking advantage of tax laws. Or if people are, their criticism is misdirected. But there are a few real issues here:
a) The optics of a wealthy presidential candidate not paying taxes are just terrible, regardless of the reason. There is no good way to justify Trump's businesses losing money and having debts discharged in bankruptcy, yet increasing his wealth by millions of dollars yet paying roughly 0% of those millions to the IRS, especially when juxtaposed against the typical median-income earner paying about 13% to the IRS. It doesn't matter if he gamed the system legally, he still gamed the system. When you're campaigning to represent the public, that matters.
b) As above, I don't understand how it's just that his casino business mis-management that lead to hundreds of millions in losses nevertheless generated significant tax-free income for him personally. I understand having accrued NOLs within a business, but I don't see how it's appropriate for those business benefits to flow out of that business to him personally. Of course, this is the same guy who raided his "charitable" trust to pay his corporate legal bills (which actually *is* illegal), so I don't think ethics are high on his list.
c) Bigger picture, if the tax code is such that only the wealthy can afford to set up a labyrinthine business structure and take advantage of all the provisions (I won't call them loopholes) regarding debt, losses, and bankruptcy, then that is obviously an exacerbating factor in the acceleration of the wealth gap. In other words, suppose both you and Donald Trump were the only two winners in the Powerball lottery jackpot next month. Trump would end up paying less in taxes than you would. That seems counter to the premise of a progressive tax system.
d) That wealth gap is the reason so many people are so mad -- they feel they can't get ahead. Ironically, those people most affected by stagnating incomes seem to favor Donald Trump, yet it's precisely his actions and those of his compatriots that have created the problem in the first place. Trump's campaign just tweeted: "Mr. Trump knows the tax code far better than anyone who has ever run for President and he is the only one that knows how to fix it." The first part might be true, but the second isn't believable at all. The existing tax code is part of what got him into his position of great wealth in the first place, so why on earth would he actually "fix" anything? In fact, his tax proposals would only exacerbate the problem.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out, but I can't see a scenario where this possibly helps him. His campaign is spinning it like he's a genius, but I think Trump's perfectly legal tax avoidance scheme is going to turn into a PR disaster in much the same way that Martin Shkreli's perfectly legal price hike on Daraprim was a PR disaster.

Quote: ams288

. So I will continue to call anything that allows a "billionaire" like Trump to avoid paying federal income taxes a "loophole."

I will just refer to it as Trump's failure was so big he was able to write it off for 18years. FAILURE SO BIG, IT'S HUUUUUUUGEEE!

perfect.

But read MEs post above.

Quote: ams288

I like how much it bothers you. So I will continue to call anything that allows a "billionaire" like Trump to avoid paying federal income taxes a "loophole."

#sorrynotsorry

I like how you are proud of your lack of comprehension. The fact that you are sticking to a position that is intellectually bankrupt tells us all a lot about your approach to life.

Tell us what that Trump Tax Loophole Bill would include? That is a term you came up with, so surely you can you share with us the basics of this new bill.

Here's Sanders on the same point. I agree with everything he's saying here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-taxes_us_57f1127be4b082aad9bbbf27?r55gpxs1yw3mh7iudi&

Bottom line, the vast majority of Trump supporters paid more to the IRS last year than Trump did himself. I don't think all of those supporters will be happy when they learn that.

Quote: Paradigm

What would this bill say BBB? If you have tax losses and are deemed rich, you should send in $$ to the US Treasury anyway? You are smarter than that and you know it!

I've no idea what the bill would say and was not advocating it. I was saying it was a pipe dream with them in recess, that anything will be accomplished until after the election, let alone a Dem sponsored bill.

Merrick Garland must be looking pretty damned good right now, btw.

Quote: Paradigm

What would this bill say BBB? If you have tax losses and are deemed rich, you should send in $$ to the US Treasury anyway?

Did Trump have the tax losses, or did his business(es)? Isn't there a difference?

If Trump keeps bragging "I took advantage of the broken system," it'll be very easy for Clinton to add "and that's why our kids don't have band class anymore." There's no way to make that look good, and he should stop. But at least he's not talking about how fat his pageant contestants were, so that's a plus.

What I can't reconcile is how Trump supposedly made ,I think he said in the debate, 695 million dollars personally last year, but presumably paid no income taxes. As an example.

If he's actually worth 9 or 10 billion dollars (I've heard him claim both in the past.year), is that somehow ALL exempt from paying taxes? If he has an army of lawyers figuring this all out, they're probably a personal expense that gets written off, but how do you have a net gain over decades in those amounts and consistently not pay taxes?

Quote: MathExtremist

Here's Sanders on the same point. I agree with everything he's saying here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-taxes_us_57f1127be4b082aad9bbbf27?r55gpxs1yw3mh7iudi&

Bottom line, the vast majority of Trump supporters paid more to the IRS last year than Trump did himself. I don't think all of those supporters will be happy when they learn that.

Huh? I must have missed the release of his 2015 personal and business tax returns. I just googled them; I don't see them. Plus all of those damned deplorables are really just knuckle-dragging folks that lack education, how could the possibly pay anything on income taxes with their menial jobs? If they are out there, please link them...I could have defective browser...

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trumps-u.s.-federal-income-tax-returns

Quote: MathExtremist

d) That wealth gap is the reason so many people are so mad -- they feel they can't get ahead. Ironically, those people most affected by stagnating incomes seem to favor Donald Trump, yet it's precisely his actions and those of his compatriots that have created the problem in the first place. Trump's campaign just tweeted: "Mr. Trump knows the tax code far better than anyone who has ever run for President and he is the only one that knows how to fix it." The first part might be true, but the second isn't believable at all. The existing tax code is part of what got him into his position of great wealth in the first place, so why on earth would he actually "fix" anything? In fact, his tax proposals would only exacerbate the problem.

Huh?

First, you have to concede that a "wealth gap" is some kind of "problem." Trump supporters tend to not see a problem in someone making more than they do. They, and I consider myself one, see a bigger problem in a government allowing illegal aliens and importing refugees and handing them tens of thousands in taxes and other aid. THAT is a problem to me. Trump develops properties, increasing their value to the local tax rolls. Tens of thousands of jobs in the construction phases and others during regular operations. Yet this is somehow "bad" if you are a Trump-hater.

You would have to explain how the tax code got him into a position of wealth. The wealthy are paying effectively almost all the taxes in the USA. The bottom half effectively none. So I do not get that.

On the leaked taxes, clearly they are corporate. There is no major carry-forward on personal taxes, just a minimal amount for capital losses. Nowhere near enough for 18 years of no tax paying. Trump is also smart in that he clearly minimizes personal income. Any smart person does that. People I know who are in business title their cars and even boats to the business to take expenses or depreciation. Before the people on the board who clearly do not understand this concept complain they need to add up all they get in health insurance and other untaxed benefits.

Minimizing taxes is the same smart as walking past 6:5 BJ for the real thing.

ME, first my guess is your business is a Sch C (LLC), meaning it is a single member LLC that is reported on your Form 1040 Schedule C.

Let's take you points one at a time, because unlike ams288, you actually approach issues with logic and thoughtfulness:

a) How would you propose changing the optics. You surely don't want Trump to pay taxes that he doesn't owe along the lines of ams288. Why are you using the terms "gaming the system"? The guy lost $900M of his own money doing something outside of a C Corporate structure that his casino businesses represented. Keep in mind this is a 1995 tax return, way before things went south in AC. If I had to guess this was a real estate development deal that went bad and he lost the money he put into the venture. It was likely structured as a Limited Partnership which is kind of what you would have if you had another owner in your LLC.

In the mid '90's lots of real estate developers got their heads handed to them. Think about what your house value did from 1989 to 1995. That is what happened to anyone developing real estate in the early '90's. And the losses from real estate partnerships flow through to your individual return provided you lost your money. When you get debt discharged in bankruptcy, even in a partnership situation, you don't get to hang on to the deductions/losses that those debts funded...the portion of the loss funded by debt you don't repay is recaptured. So the fact pattern that he borrowed money, didn't pay it back via BK and now has a loss carryforward to offset future income is a false one...but please wait for ams288 to start talking about this narrative, that would be par for the course!

b) None of his personal loss carryforwards are the result of his casino businesses or any other C Corporate business generating losses. You are correct that those losses don't flow to him personally. Just like none of the shareholders or employees of GM were able to deduct the operating losses of GM even if they owned stock in GM that ended up being worthless. They would get to deduct a loss to the extent they used their own money to buy GM stock which went to zero.

c) This doesn't exist...you have to lose your own personal funds in a venture to get a personal tax loss carryforward.

d) You're getting into ams288-land here. You can't possible think that losing money, claiming it on your tax return, having the IRS audit the returns and assure that the losses taken were legitimate is the reason Trump is rich. And you don't get his kind of rich, stiffing the small business contractor out of a portion of his money for whatever reason regardless of the legitimacy of the argument for not paying. You're a business guy, you know that at times you and your clients don't agree on what value was provided and you negotiate a deal that is acceptable to both sides.

This won't come close to the Turing situation...the every day American who evaluates the factual situation is more likely to say "Wow, Trump lost $900M...maybe he isn't as great a business guy as I thought"...and that would be a legitimate conclusion that could be drawn. But to come to the conclusion that prior losses of your own money shouldn't offset future year's income or that as a good taxpayer, you should send money into the US Treasury even if you don't owe it, will never be popularly supported no matter how rich you are.

The bottom line is the NYT story isn't really a story except for the fact that Trump, this supposed business mastermind, somehow lost $900M in the real estate downturn...that would be the narrative the Dems should take out of this story. But that doesn't sell as well as Trump is a tax cheat or isn't paying his fair share. Hillary's camp knows that despite all the rhetoric, people know that while Trump may have had some business failures along the way, the guy has had some very public business successes. You can't spin that fact.

Quote: MathExtremist

Here's Sanders on the same point. I agree with everything he's saying here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-taxes_us_57f1127be4b082aad9bbbf27?r55gpxs1yw3mh7iudi&

Bottom line, the vast majority of Trump supporters paid more to the IRS last year than Trump did himself. I don't think all of those supporters will be happy when they learn that.

And there is Sanders with ams288 "loophole" term...why didn't Bernie stand up and say "I am against a taxpayer losing money in year one in a business and being able to deduct those losses in year two if that year the business made money"...because that won't sell, but using a general term like Trump is taking advantage of a "loophole" makes him seem evil.

By the way, I think the wealth gap is a problem in this country, for whatever that is worth.

A big problem I see is that an American with average intelligence simply cannot compete in the information age. These average Americans used to be able to build cars and make things in the manufacturing industries, but those jobs are going away. Now if you are of average intelligence and can't figure out computers, but are willing to physically work hard and want to provide for a family in the US, what options do you have? The blue collar worker is being left behind and that is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. I don't have an answer for it, but what I do know is mandating a $15 minimum wage doesn't change the value proposition these individuals are able to provide in exchange.

Quote: AZDuffman

On the leaked taxes, clearly they are corporate. There is no major carry-forward on personal taxes, just a minimal amount for capital losses. Nowhere near enough for 18 years of no tax paying.

You are wrong AZ, do a Google search on Individual Net Operating Loss...why do people continue to spout off about stuff they don't know about?

I am out...I have to get back to tax returns...it is what I do for a living.

Quote: beachbumbabs

What I can't reconcile is how Trump supposedly made ,I think he said in the debate, 695 million dollars personally last year, but presumably paid no income taxes. As an example.

If he's actually worth 9 or 10 billion dollars (I've heard him claim both in the past.year), is that somehow ALL exempt from paying taxes? If he has an army of lawyers figuring this all out, they're probably a personal expense that gets written off, but how do you have a net gain over decades in those amounts and consistently not pay taxes?

He has not released his taxes, therefore everyone is speculating about what he has paid or not. If he wasn't within the law he would be up on charges. This administration and the entire establishment is desperate to nail him to a tree. They fear him.

The better question to ask is how the Clinton's who have spent their entire lives in public service have accumulated 300 million dollars in total net worth and control a "charitable" foundation that has taken in billions. What are they peddling?

I see no evidence of illegal activity regarding Trump and his taxes.

The arguments about Republicans and Democrats are pointless. Establishment politicians are all one corrupt party today. That is why Bush is endorsing Hillary and his daughter is out partying with Huma. Trump has always said he didn't want the job but would take it if he was needed as a last resort. Trump loves America and his family's future depends on its success, due mostly to real estate. When he gets elected a whole lot of existing corruption will be exposed.

Quote: Paradigm

You are wrong AZ, do a Google search on Individual Net Operating Loss...why do people continue to spout off about stuff they don't know about?

I am out...I have to get back to tax returns...it is what I do for a living.

OK, this was not covered when I did what I admit was low end tax work. OTOH, if it was a loss from, a bankruptcy that would be a capital not operating loss.

However, I find it hard to believe it is not corporate as nobody would put that much in assets in a personal name.

Why are you doing tax returns in October?

Whether you like or dislike Trump, you should read this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/09/28/i-sold-trump-100000-worth-of-pianos-then-he-stiffed-me/?utm_term=.0edac9c21218

When you hire small family business owners as contractors, they are depending on you to live up to your word. When you screw them over on something that is big for them and small for you, you're screwing them out of their livelihood, you can drive them out of business. Reading this is disgusting. I don't know why any small business owner believes that Trump would put in policies good for small business, there is little in his track record that provides evidence that he intends to do anything but shit on them. Now if you think it's the best of two bad options, I can see that, they both look like bad options.

If someone stiffed me on a bet or a play, or I heard from credible sources that they had, I would not consider working with them and would consider them untrustworthy, their word meaning little. This is no different. Hill is also a proven liar. What to do?

Quote: AZDuffman

Tens of thousands of jobs in the construction phases and others during regular operations. Yet this is somehow "bad" if you are a Trump-hater.
.

This is only a benefit if he actually pays them, something he has a spotty, at best, record of doing.

Quote: AZDuffman

However, I find it hard to believe it is not corporate as nobody would put that much in assets in a personal name.

Why are you doing tax returns in October?

That's exactly my question. How does someone personally (and legitimately) lose nearly a billion dollars on a tax return?

Also, basically everyone who filed for an extension last April is doing their paperwork now. Extensions are due in 2 weeks.

Quote: MathExtremist

It doesn't matter if he gamed the system legally, he still gamed the system.

Claiming actual losses isn't gaming the system, it's normal, proper, and above all, *reasonable*. There's nothing strange, esoteric, or questionable about it.

Gaming the system is when you have actual profits but still pay no taxes. U.S. corporations are experts at paying zero taxes, despite huge profits. Yet Rush Limbaugh and Fox News will tell you that American corporations suffer under the highest corporate tax rate in the world (because they're quoting only the tax rate on the books, not the tax rate the corporations actually pay).

Quote: MathExtremist

I think Trump's perfectly legal tax avoidance scheme is going to turn into a PR disaster in much the same way that Martin Shkreli's perfectly legal price hike on Daraprim was a PR disaster.

The price hike on Daraprim was legal but it wasn't normal, proper, or reasonable.

Quote: MathExtremist

Did Trump have the tax losses, or did his business(es)? Isn't there a difference?

Not necessarily, it depends on how it's structured. I'm the sole shareholder of an S Corporation. If the business loses money, I have a personal loss on my personal tax return. If you're the majority owner of a C Corporation, and you paid for the stock you own, and the company goes bankrupt and you have to sell your stock at a loss, that'll be a Schedule D loss on your personal return. There are probably other ways that business losses can wind up on your personal return.

Quote: rxwine

I will just refer to it as Trump's failure was so big he was able to write it off for 18years. FAILURE SO BIG, IT'S HUUUUUUUGEEE!

That seems to be the much more accurate interpretation.

Quote: Paradigm

And there is Sanders with ams288 "loophole" term...why didn't Bernie stand up and say "I am against a taxpayer losing money in year one in a business and being able to deduct those losses in year two if that year the business made money"...because that won't sell, but using a general term like Trump is taking advantage of a "loophole" makes him seem evil.

By the way, I think the wealth gap is a problem in this country, for whatever that is worth.

A big problem I see is that an American with average intelligence simply cannot compete in the information age. These average Americans used to be able to build cars and make things in the manufacturing industries, but those jobs are going away. Now if you are of average intelligence and can't figure out computers, but are willing to physically work hard and want to provide for a family in the US, what options do you have? The blue collar worker is being left behind and that is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. I don't have an answer for it, but what I do know is mandating a $15 minimum wage doesn't change the value proposition these individuals are able to provide in exchange.

Well, I think there are a lot of blue collar opportunities going begging. There are massive amounts of things being thrown away just because it's easier to buy new than fix them; junk dealers, small appliance repair, large appliance repair. Again in a related field, salvaging raw materials and reutilizing or redirecting parts has great value.

Infrastructure; still lots of blue-collar work on roads, bridges, public buildings, airports; where is the investment in maintaining and improving those?

Nursing homes and other quasi - medical facilities are going begging for caregivers, orderlies, staffers.

Small service contracting. Landscaping, pressure washing, ...I'm boring myself, let alone anybody reading, reciting s list. So I'll stop. But blue-collar work is out there for people who want it.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Well, I think there are a lot of blue collar opportunities going begging.

The mention of understanding computers is also not a complete shutout to employment. You can write software to meet anyone's ability, so if there is job doing computer work one can do it.

However if the software becomes good enough, a lot more people than blue collar workers will likely be in trouble.

Although I think the future may hold a new model for human employment eventually, just not sure what. Maybe more people will be employed in public service areas of some sort.

Quote: MathExtremist

That's exactly my question. How does someone personally (and legitimately) lose nearly a billion dollars on a tax return?

Well you start with several billion dollars, invest them in a few real estate developments that end up getting foreclosed on and you take a deduction for the billion dollars you put into the projects (not the debt that you didn't repay). As a real estate developer, real estate is not a capital asset, so you end up with an ordinary net operating loss. And it wasn't in his name AZ...it was likely in a limited partnership and that type of structure was common place in the 90's. That still means the losses flow through to him personally, so just start believing it is possible, because every part of the story is very possible and in the early 90's, quite likely.

This isn't rocket science, Trump losing $900M+ could have legitimately happened in the real estate downturn that took place in the early 90's. He did, the IRS likely audited it based on Trump's statements. The NYT article alluded to the likelihood of and audit as well.

So tell me again why this is a big story for anyone that is reasonably intelligent...oh, that's right "optics" which evidently Trump could only have changed by making a large charitable contributions to the US Treasury over the years...because that is what an intelligent logical person would have done...and just in case you were wondering, that doesn't count as a charitable deduction for tax purposes.

There is no loophole, that term is bantered about as spin to highlight the fact that Trump likely didn't pay taxes as he was using the net operating loss carry forward. But all those hard to understand details don't work in a sound bite, for crying out loud they don't even seem to work on this Forum and most of the members here are pretty smart.

"Trump doesn't pay his fair share and as a result shouldn't be President", there, that works a lot better. Of course you have to be uneducated in the facts to come to that conclusion...and you likely also believe that Bernie Sanders is someone to listen to on how Trump's taxes work!

Quote: Paradigm

So tell me again why this is a big story for anyone that is reasonably intelligent

I think the big story is it looks like he was planning on keeping it from the public until after the election.

And this is a guy has has been calling out others since he started on Obama's birth certificate.,

One of the hypocritical things about this is how Trump has complained about various different groups of people not paying taxes.

http://time.com/4516001/donald-trump-taxes-twitter/

Half of Americans, a billionaire moving out of the country, and Amazon are mentioned in that article.

The irony is Clinton's own campaign has admitted she used the same law in her tax filings to carry forth a 700k loss in 2015. This is a witch hunt and absolutely baseless. When will people wake up?

Quote: Paradigm

ME, first my guess is your business is a Sch C (LLC), meaning it is a single member LLC that is reported on your Form 1040 Schedule C.

Yes, that's probably right, I haven't unearthed my paperwork to look. Whatever is the schedule for pass-through income. I don't currently file a separate tax return for my business, but after this Trump revelation I'm going to ask my CPA about my options. I'm not rich like Trump, but I have the money to file a bunch of shell companies and move funds around to create business gains and losses. I'd be happy to pay a tax guy $50k now if he can save me hundreds of thousands by exploiting loopholes in optimizing my filings for the tax code over the next two decades...

Quote:

a) How would you propose changing the optics. You surely don't want Trump to pay taxes that he doesn't owe along the lines of ams288. Why are you using the terms "gaming the system"? The guy lost $900M of his own money doing something outside of a C Corporate structure that his casino businesses represented. Keep in mind this is a 1995 tax return, way before things went south in AC. If I had to guess this was a real estate development deal that went bad and he lost the money he put into the venture. It was likely structured as a Limited Partnership which is kind of what you would have if you had another owner in your LLC.

The optics are that he hasn't been paying taxes -- I don't know that there is a way to change how that's perceived by the typical taxpayer.

Worse, the whole story doesn't add up. Let's assume those tax documents are legitimate, despite the weird mis-aligned type on several of them. The Trump campaign certainly hasn't issued its expected denial if those documents were inauthentic, even as they've denied other things that turned out to be true (birther conspiracy, climate change, Iraq war support, etc.) Maybe it's reverse psychology, but let's go with the documents being correct.

So we have a $900M loss at some point during or before 1995. We also have reports that he was worth $500M in 1990:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/04/weve-been-trying-figure-out-how-much-trump-worth-20-years/349875/
Given how you correctly characterized the decline in the real estate market between 1990 and 1995, he should have had a total net worth of less than $500M by 1995 if he started in 1990 with $500M. So where did he get $900M to lose in the first place? The only thing that makes sense is that somehow he did what you say shouldn't be done -- took the real-estate business NOLs as personal deductions.

Quote:

d) You're getting into ams288-land here. You can't possible think that losing money, claiming it on your tax return, having the IRS audit the returns and assure that the losses taken were legitimate is the reason Trump is rich. And you don't get his kind of rich, stiffing the small business contractor out of a portion of his money for whatever reason regardless of the legitimacy of the argument for not paying. You're a business guy, you know that at times you and your clients don't agree on what value was provided and you negotiate a deal that is acceptable to both sides.

Okay, a few things here. We do know that he stiffed his contractors, and we also know that he dodged taxes by redirecting charitable donations to pay his legal bills. That's not in dispute. Both of those are illegal, and both of them are worth six or maybe seven figures by themselves. He's also made suspiciously-timed donations to public figures and had investigations dropped shortly thereafter. Given that pattern, there is every reason to believe that Trump and his accounting team have played fast and loose with other income and expenses. I have absolutely no reason to conclude that his businesses were properly accounted for with regard to business vs. personal income and expenses. And I don't think I'm the only one who will reach that conclusion.

Quote:

This won't come close to the Turing situation...the every day American who evaluates the factual situation is more likely to say "Wow, Trump lost $900M...maybe he isn't as great a business guy as I thought"...and that would be a legitimate conclusion that could be drawn. But to come to the conclusion that prior losses of your own money shouldn't offset future year's income or that as a good taxpayer, you should send money into the US Treasury even if you don't owe it, will never be popularly supported no matter how rich you are.

No, I don't think anyone is going to suggest that you should pay taxes you don't owe. I certainly don't suggest that. What I think the average American will realize is that "the system" truly is rigged against them and in favor of the Donald Trumps of the world, and that someone who has both rigged the system and handsomely profited from that rigging (like Trump) is totally the wrong person to "fix it".

This is somewhat like finding out there's a black-hat hacker that's been installing backdoors in your servers, and then he comes clean and says "hire me as your security expert for four years and I'll fix your firewall." Do you trust him to properly and honestly fix the firewall, or do you think he'll just install a sneakier backdoor so later on, after his four years are up, he can break into your network whenever he wants? It's like hiring the fox to guard the hen house. I think that's going to be the view on Trump's tax plan now, and I don't think there is anything Trump can do to change that.

duplicate

Quote: MaxPen

The irony is Clinton's own campaign has admitted she used the same law in her tax filings to carry forth a 700k loss in 2015. This is a witch hunt and absolutely baseless.

Wow, you really can't read, can you? On page 1 of the Schedule D, she lists the $700k loss, but then ON THE VERY NEXT PAGE that loss is limited to merely $3000. It's that mere $3000 loss that's listed on page 1 of the 1040 itself. The same 1040 that shows that she paid $3.6M in tax (on $10.6M in income).

2015 PDF tax return

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Wow, you really can't read, can you? On page 1 of the Schedule D, she lists the $700k loss, but then ON THE VERY NEXT PAGE that loss is limited to merely $3000. It's that mere $3000 loss that's listed on page 1 of the 1040 itself. The same 1040 that shows that she paid $3.6M in tax (on $10.6M in income).

Line 21 of Schedule D limits the subtraction to the lesser of $3,000 or the $700,000 loss. She still receives the carryover. Some people here and elsewhere have probably not incurred losses that can be carried over and therefore are not acquainted with the various limits.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Line 21 of Schedule D limits the subtraction to the lesser of $3,000 or the $700,000 loss. She still receives the carryover. Some people here and elsewhere have probably not incurred losses that can be carried over and therefore are not acquainted with the various limits.

So, with the carryover limited to $3k per year in offset, it'll take her only 233 years to claim all of it. Not in the same ballpark as what's being alleged of Trump.

And like I said, the return shows she paid $3.6M in tax. Also not in the same ballpark.

Quote: MathExtremist

Yes, that's probably right, I haven't unearthed my paperwork to look. Whatever is the schedule for pass-through income. I don't currently file a separate tax return for my business, but after this Trump revelation I'm going to ask my CPA about my options. I'm not rich like Trump, but I have the money to file a bunch of shell companies and move funds around to create business gains and losses. I'd be happy to pay a tax guy $50k now if he can save me hundreds of thousands by exploiting loopholes in optimizing my filings for the tax code over the next two decades...

Your CPA will tell you that won't work and likely also tell you that isn't what the 1995 Tax Returns tell you either. Keep thinking, but please try and be intellectually honest with your posts, the above crap is below your intelligence level.

Quote: MathExtremist

So we have a $900M loss at some point during or before 1995. We also have reports that he was worth $500M in 1990:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/04/weve-been-trying-figure-out-how-much-trump-worth-20-years/349875/
Given how you correctly characterized the decline in the real estate market between 1990 and 1995, he should have had a total net worth of less than $500M by 1995 if he started in 1990 with $500M. So where did he get $900M to lose in the first place? The only thing that makes sense is that somehow he did what you say shouldn't be done -- took the real-estate business NOLs as personal deductions.

You know what is funny, this article actually supports Trump losing the $900 million. What you left out in what you posted from the article is that Forbes had his net worth in 1989 at $1.5B and then in 1990 his 1st wife/Forbes said he was only worth $400M - $500M.

You see the 1995 return actually also reports a Net Operating Loss Carry Forward. That is what the $909,459,915 negative number represents on Line 15 of the NY State Return. We can't tell which year the loss was generated, only that it is carrying forward from some year prior to 1995. But it sure would support the Forbes number in 1989 of $1.5B and the Forbes/Ivana numbers in 1990 of $400M - $500M. Surprise, Surprise that is about a $900K to $1B decrease in net worth, just about the amount of the loss carryforward. Well isn't that in an inconvenient truth!

You got to hand it to The Atlantic & Forbes, they appeared to have nailed it! So which part of the picture doesn't line up again. The guy legitimately lost $900 million.

Go ahead and rail on about stiffing contractors and charitable giving and whatever else you want to bash Trump over, but get off the tax loss carry forward, paying his fair share and tax loopholes. You have proven the legitimacy of the loss with your own post and by now must realize you are just flat wrong on this one...or at least you should have come to that conclusion by now.

Part of what this whole thing means is that the Trump has been part of Mitt Romney ' s 47% for decades. He didn't build it. He didn't pay for it; just took it. Good Republican values.

/sarcasm

Quote: beachbumbabs

Part of what this whole thing means is that the Trump has been part of Mitt Romney ' s 47% for decades. He didn't build it. He didn't pay for it; just took it. Good Republican values.

/sarcasm

CBS news played a video clip of Trump saying he knows of people making a lot of money who don't pay taxes and it's just not fair.

Here it is. Although he's talking hedge funds and fair tax. Still kind of amusing.

Quote:

CARSON: The people who [oppose flat taxes]--that's called socialism.
Q: What about the FairTax?
TRUMP: What I don't like about the FairTax is that if you make $200 million a year, you pay 10%, you're paying very little relatively to somebody that's making $50,000 a year, and has to hire H&R Block because the middle class. The hedge fund guys won't like me as much as they like me right now. I know them all, but they'll pay more. I know people that are making a tremendous amount of money and paying virtually no tax, and I think it's unfair.

He knows one, yup.

Source: 2015 Republican two-tiered primary debate on CNN , Sep 16, 2015

Quote: rxwine

CBS news played a video clip of Trump saying he knows of people making a lot of money who don't pay taxes and it's just not fair.

You hear that?

That's the sound of the Clinton campaign furiously editing together a new attack ad.

Quote: Paradigm

And there is Sanders with ams288 "loophole" term...why didn't Bernie stand up and say "I am against a taxpayer losing money in year one in a business and being able to deduct those losses in year two if that year the business made money"...because that won't sell, but using a general term like Trump is taking advantage of a "loophole" makes him seem evil.

Bernie gets his talking points from me, didn't you know?

I'm kind of a big deal.

Quote: MaxPen

The irony is Clinton's own campaign has admitted she used the same law in her tax filings to carry forth a 700k loss in 2015. This is a witch hunt and absolutely baseless. When will people wake up?

Hahahaha.

I wonder what right wing website MaxPen got this nonsense from.

http://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2016/10/03/right-wing-media-faceplant-rush-accuse-clintons-doing-same-thing-trump-taxes/213487

MediaMatters said, "The claim, which originated with a pseudonymous Reddit poster and has already spread to Fox News, fails to note that while the Clintons’ 2015 return shows that they did have a roughly $700,000 capital loss carried over from a prior year, that loss originates with the financial crash of 2008, and they received only a $3,000 deduction for those losses and paid $3.2 million in federal income taxes in 2015."

In my posts above, I said the exact same thing. (Before they did. Go me!)

Quote: rxwine

I will just refer to it as Trump's failure was so big he was able to write it off for 18years.

How would you know how long and to what extent the carryover existed without seeing the actual returns?