CathyLV
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April 2nd, 2016 at 8:34:06 PM permalink
My husband and I were at a Station casino in Las Vegas. We were getting food at the food court when a security guard approached us saying that they had video proof that we got a ticket out of a slot machine that someone else was playing (and I guess left) and cashed it in for $280. We told him that we cashed in a ticket from the machine my husband was playing for 25 cents. And if they have the video, why don't they play it back and see where we came from and what machine he was playing (for at least 10 minutes) and then watch us get our ticket and go to the redemption machine.

The security guard said that watching the machines was another department. My husband said then why don't you zoom into the video to see the amount dispensed as listed on the screen or watch his hands take the quarter from the machine.

Again we were told they had proof that we took someone's ticket and cashed it in, and if we returned the $280 there would be "no harm, no foul."

My husband said we never had or cashed in a ticket for $280 and if they looked at the video, they would see it was for 25 cents. And they could check our player's card to see what machine we were at.

The security guard then said if we didn't return the $280 which they knew we had as they had proof on video, we would be trespassed from the casino and all station casinos., and would have to leave immediately. But it was odd as they had proof we "stole" $280, but wouldn't arrest us or anything, just trespassed us.

Since we didn't take or cash in the ticket as we were being accused of, we said then you'll have to do that. But my husband said, that we would leave as soon as our food was ready (we were at the food court) and told the food person to make it a to go order. The security guard was OK with this.

He read us the NRS trespass notice saying that we could never return to any Station Casino. He waited for us to get our food, and walked with us to the elevators for the parking garage.

Here's what confuses us. They didn't detain us, call the police, take our names, take our pictures or accompany us to our car to get the license plate. They didn't give us anything to sign. It seemed all very unofficial.

Obviously the security guard and a few security people and two slot workers who were talking to the security guard know what we look like. We consider ourselves banned from all Station Casinos. Talking to friends, we found out that they own other casinos not branded as a Station Casino (like Texas Station) such as Green Valley Ranch and Red Rock and Wildfire.

Some questions: How would we know if the casino isn't branded as a Station Casino that we are trespassing (until we figured out that they use the same reward card) which means we would be on the property? And we understand it means the bowling alley and movie theater (which is a shame).

How do they know who we are? The didn't take any info but we assume that they have our pictures and, obviously, any employee involved in the situation knows what we look like. If thy know from my husband's player's card, why didn't they know that we went directly from the machine he was playing to the redemption machine?

This seems a bit confusing (and as I said, unofficial), but a ban is a ban. But it seems like we may not have been trespassed properly. By telling us we are banned at all Station Casinos, it almost could be mistaken for all branded Station Casinos, since we don't know everything they own.

Thanks for any insight.
beachbumbabs
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April 2nd, 2016 at 10:50:07 PM permalink
That just seems bizarre from start to finish. They didn't prove anything to you, they didn't have you sign anything? The guard didn't know your names? It almost sounds like you were being played for the money ("give me the cash and no questions asked"), except I've never been trespassed, so I have no experience to rely on in saying that.

Did either of you flash a wad of cash, where the guy thought you had that much on you so he could hit you for it? Did you get a name or a badge number? I myself would have to kick the whole thing upstairs, and insist on seeing what they think they saw, and not leave until they showed me, though I suppose they can ask anyone to leave at any time (it's private property). Worst case, you're still trespassed.
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RS
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April 2nd, 2016 at 10:53:18 PM permalink
I'm no lawyer, but...

Did they ever say "you are trespassed"? Or was it "you will be trespassed if you don't return the $280"?

To me, if it is based on the condition you don't RETURN the $280, then you aren't trespassed, since technically, the condition (to return $280) is a null point, as you cannot return something that you never got. Sort of like "If you stop beating your wife..." (when you never beat your wife to begin with).

Did they say "if you return to a stations property, you'll be trespassed" or "if you return to a stations property, the police will be called and you will be arrested"?


IMO, easiest thing to do is wait until you and/or wife get a mail offer (the thing you get once a month with free play, discounted rooms, food, etc.) from stations, and you're good to go -- as far as I know/heard, getting a mailer basically makes a trespass void, since they are inviting you back. Using your player's card may not be a good idea, though, since they may come and re-trespass you....but if you don't use your card you should be fine for the most part....and if they try to have you arrested, well, ya got a mailer from the casino inviting you back.


I'm not a lawyer, but my 2 cents.
fivespot
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April 2nd, 2016 at 11:20:46 PM permalink
Quote: CathyLV

Here's what confuses us. They didn't detain us, call the police, take our names, take our pictures or accompany us to our car to get the license plate. They didn't give us anything to sign. It seemed all very unofficial.

It is. And it's intended to scare you more than anything else.

The likelihood of anyone at any other property recognizing you, unless you choose to identify yourself, is almost nonexistent. The likelihood of anyone bothering you if you go to the bowling alley or movie theater is almost nonexistent. Their actual legal recourse even if you return is minimal. You do not need to sweat about showing up at some other casino, being surprised to learn that they're owned by Stations, and having something bad happen.

Once, while playing a one-day promotion at Suncoast, I was asked to leave for the day. I continued to receive freeplay offers, and showed up to collect them without incident. Later, when they ran another appealing promotion, I went to the players club and asked to speak to a supervisor to make sure they'd honor it for me. He showed up with security guards and asked why I was there when they'd trespassed me. I said they had done no such thing, and even if they had, they'd sent me promotional emails inviting me to return and nullifying any previous demand not to return.

He clearly didn't believe me, but all he did was instruct the guards to trespass me "again". I walked away towards the exit, prompting the hilarious scene of guards yelling at me not to leave because they needed to formally tell me to leave. They also yelled demands to see my ID - no thanks. They shouted the trespass act at my back. Whatever. I left.

Amazingly, I had a similar experience at another casino. They asked me not to play video poker there anymore. I didn't. Several years later I showed up and asked for a players card. They said they couldn't give me a players card because I'd been 86'd, which I absolutely had not. I declined their offer to get a supervisor to "try and clear things up" and left.

If you're trespassed - or they think they've trespassed you - and you show up again, what are they going to do? Look at it from their perspective. If they detain you so that they can call the cops to have you arrested, they're creating enormous hassles for themselves, and running a legal risk. If they're wrong about having trespassed you, or wrong about no part of the enormous corporate entity having ever invited you back - and how can they be sure about either, and prove it? - that's false imprisonment and they're looking at a possible lawsuit. Unless you're showing up over and over and being a major nuisance, they have no reason to do anything other than tell you to leave.

tl,dr: Don't worry about it. Don't go back to that particular casino, but why would you want to give such rude idiots your business anyway?
fivespot
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April 2nd, 2016 at 11:26:17 PM permalink
Oh, this also isn't the first time I've heard of someone being 86'd for something they didn't do. A friend of mine got trespassed from a small Vegas casino because he physically resembled a man who had started a drunken brawl there a week earlier. This friend never, ever drinks while playing. Didn't matter.

(Look at it from the perspective of the security people involved. If they trespass someone who looks kinda like the person who did something bad, they get to feel tough and write down that they successfully resolved a problem! If they drive away an innocent customer in the process... that doesn't affect them personally, why should they care?)
AxelWolf
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April 3rd, 2016 at 1:43:50 AM permalink
Quote: CathyLV

My husband and I were at a Station casino in Las Vegas. We were getting food at the food court when a security guard approached us saying that they had video proof that we got a ticket out of a slot machine that someone else was playing (and I guess left) and cashed it in for $280. We told him that we cashed in a ticket from the machine my husband was playing for 25 cents. And if they have the video, why don't they play it back and see where we came from and what machine he was playing (for at least 10 minutes) and then watch us get our ticket and go to the redemption machine.

The security guard said that watching the machines was another department. My husband said then why don't you zoom into the video to see the amount dispensed as listed on the screen or watch his hands take the quarter from the machine.

Again we were told they had proof that we took someone's ticket and cashed it in, and if we returned the $280 there would be "no harm, no foul."

My husband said we never had or cashed in a ticket for $280 and if they looked at the video, they would see it was for 25 cents. And they could check our player's card to see what machine we were at.

The security guard then said if we didn't return the $280 which they knew we had as they had proof on video, we would be trespassed from the casino and all station casinos., and would have to leave immediately. But it was odd as they had proof we "stole" $280, but wouldn't arrest us or anything, just trespassed us.

Since we didn't take or cash in the ticket as we were being accused of, we said then you'll have to do that. But my husband said, that we would leave as soon as our food was ready (we were at the food court) and told the food person to make it a to go order. The security guard was OK with this.

He read us the NRS trespass notice saying that we could never return to any Station Casino. He waited for us to get our food, and walked with us to the elevators for the parking garage.

Here's what confuses us. They didn't detain us, call the police, take our names, take our pictures or accompany us to our car to get the license plate. They didn't give us anything to sign. It seemed all very unofficial.

Obviously the security guard and a few security people and two slot workers who were talking to the security guard know what we look like. We consider ourselves banned from all Station Casinos. Talking to friends, we found out that they own other casinos not branded as a Station Casino (like Texas Station) such as Green Valley Ranch and Red Rock and Wildfire.

Some questions: How would we know if the casino isn't branded as a Station Casino that we are trespassing (until we figured out that they use the same reward card) which means we would be on the property? And we understand it means the bowling alley and movie theater (which is a shame).

How do they know who we are? The didn't take any info but we assume that they have our pictures and, obviously, any employee involved in the situation knows what we look like. If thy know from my husband's player's card, why didn't they know that we went directly from the machine he was playing to the redemption machine?

This seems a bit confusing (and as I said, unofficial), but a ban is a ban. But it seems like we may not have been trespassed properly. By telling us we are banned at all Station Casinos, it almost could be mistaken for all branded Station Casinos, since we don't know everything they own.

Thanks for any insight.

Bizarre is a mild description.

I was almost thinking this wasn't a real security guard at first.

The only possible thing I can think of is if you guys looked like meth heads or something.

You yourself should've called the police or gaming. At very least you should've demand to talk to the head of security or upper management. They can absolutely tell the machine and amount of a cash out if you used your players card. They can even key the cash out machine you used and verify.

I have a feeling there's more to this story than you are telling us. You don't mention if your husband actually put in his own money to start with.

I'm going to have to refer to Judge Judy on this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epVv2EJn7lk
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/61004211.jpg
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 6:36:42 AM permalink
Quote: RS

I'm no lawyer, but...

Did they ever say "you are trespassed"? Or was it "you will be trespassed if you don't return the $280"?

To me, if it is based on the condition you don't RETURN the $280, then you aren't trespassed, since technically, the condition (to return $280) is a null point, as you cannot return something that you never got. Sort of like "If you stop beating your wife..." (when you never beat your wife to begin with).

Did they say "if you return to a stations property, you'll be trespassed" or "if you return to a stations property, the police will be called and you will be arrested"?


IMO, easiest thing to do is wait until you and/or wife get a mail offer (the thing you get once a month with free play, discounted rooms, food, etc.) from stations, and you're good to go -- as far as I know/heard, getting a mailer basically makes a trespass void, since they are inviting you back. Using your player's card may not be a good idea, though, since they may come and re-trespass you....but if you don't use your card you should be fine for the most part....and if they try to have you arrested, well, ya got a mailer from the casino inviting you back.


I'm not a lawyer, but my 2 cents.



Sorry for correcting RS but getting mail after you have been trespassed does 10000 million percent in no way void the trespass, I have dealt with this first hand and it is not a second hand story
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DJTeddyBear
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April 3rd, 2016 at 7:08:36 AM permalink
I agree. An offer does not nullify a trespass. After all, creating and mailing those things takes time. It make take a while to remove you from the list, etc.

However, if after a reasonable amount of time, you get an offer for free rooms, and are able to book it, that sounds like you're invited back. Of course I wouldn't try it is unless you're a Las Vegas local. There's nothing like arriving at the hotel to find out a room reservation was canceled…
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Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 8:41:58 AM permalink
Hey dj even then it's an issue, I believe there is precedence of bulk mail offers, since the data base is simply dumped and sometimes goes back a long long time, however if you get a hand written letter from a host or a phone call then you could argue it, but I still get offers from a place that I was trespassed from and prefer not to put the details on here but I wouldn't chance it.

As far as the above story - the issues are so black and white that there has to be more to the story , maybe he added his voucher to the machine with 280 on it played it off and. Cashed out only a quarter . That being said it doesn't make sense and I'm sure there is way more to the story.
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Face
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April 3rd, 2016 at 8:57:38 AM permalink
Quote: CathyLV


Some questions: How would we know if the casino isn't branded as a Station Casino that we are trespassing (until we figured out that they use the same reward card) which means we would be on the property?



You'll have to check. Google is your friend. Wing it and you risk a hassle.

Quote: CathyLV

How do they know who we are? The didn't take any info but we assume that they have our pictures and, obviously, any employee involved in the situation knows what we look like. If thy know from my husband's player's card, why didn't they know that we went directly from the machine he was playing to the redemption machine?



They do know who you are from your player's card. They don't know what you did after because it's not a GPS. It is only read when you insert it into a machine with a reader, which a TRU is not.

Quote: CathyLV

By telling us we are banned at all Station Casinos, it almost could be mistaken for all branded Station Casinos, since we don't know everything they own.



"Ignorance of the law is not an excuse". Do not rely on this unless you enjoy hassles.

As an aside, it was likely "unofficial" because they probably determined you did not commit a crime. Most casinos adopt a "not responsible for abandoned credits" policy. If you're hawking other players, an argument can be made about intent and could bump it up closer to theft. An accident is just that. They can't and won't charge you, but for customer service reasons, they want it back. In those cases, you get the treatment you just received. Also, they likely had all your pertinent info including pics well before they even approached.
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fivespot
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April 3rd, 2016 at 12:50:07 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

As far as the above story - the issues are so black and white that there has to be more to the story , maybe he added his voucher to the machine with 280 on it played it off and. Cashed out only a quarter . That being said it doesn't make sense and I'm sure there is way more to the story.


People keep saying "there must be more to the story". Why? Do you really think so highly of casino security that you think they wouldn't trespass someone based on mistaken identity? That they wouldn't fail to use every tool at their disposal to make sure they had the right person, rather than take the easy route? Some casinos are better than that, but you think it's implausible that *any* casino would do that?

It's possible that there's more to the story, but the original poster's story is completely plausible as it stands.
Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 1:04:44 PM permalink
Because think about it/ if you were accused wouldn't you ask for a supervisor / whenever I've seen people or been trespassed there is always more then one guard, also it doesn't apply to each property - not that they can't but as far as legally my pretty certain you could fight it if you went to another property/ also

Who cashes 25 cent vouchers 🙊
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fivespot
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April 3rd, 2016 at 1:04:45 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Sorry for correcting RS but getting mail after you have been trespassed does 10000 million percent in no way void the trespass, I have dealt with this first hand and it is not a second hand story

You've tested it in court? You've seen case law to that effect? Or is your firsthand experience just that you've been harassed by security and/or cops saying this? Security and cops routinely express mistaken opinions about the law, or simply lie about it, and harass anyone they want to harass.

If an entity tells me "get lost" and then tells me "we miss you, come back", I would be astonished if the law considered me to be warned not to enter their property. If they have an automated system telling people "we miss you, come back", that's their problem, not mine.

More and more of the offers I receive have small print saying that barred or trespassed players are excluded from the offer - I find that to be strong evidence that the casinos *also* believe their offers would otherwise nullify a previous trespass notice, why else would they include such text?

Really, given the expense of taking anything to court, the law is rarely relevant for minor stuff like that. The bigger issue is where, and how much, the original poster is likely to be harassed. If I were the original poster, I would not expect to be harassed anywhere but the casino floor of the specific Station where they had their encounter. (And I would expect the potential for harassment there regardless of any subsequent offers and regardless of the law.)
Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 1:07:05 PM permalink
I've dealt with it first hand and with the gaming commission/
I also believe their is court precedent however i don't want to say who on the board knows first hand but it also was confirmed but I reputable member of the forum
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fivespot
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April 3rd, 2016 at 1:11:54 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Because think about it/ if you were accused wouldn't you ask for a supervisor / whenever I've seen people or been trespassed there is always more then one guard, also it doesn't apply to each property - not that they can't but as far as legally my pretty certain you could fight it if you went to another property/ also

I probably wouldn't ask for a supervisor, because I'm sure the supervisor would stonewall me and I'd be wasting my time. I'm pretty sure 90% of people wouldn't ask for a supervisor because they are intimidated by people in uniforms and do whatever they say. (How often do cops get told "no" when they ask if they can "look around the car"? How often do people walk right past the security guard checking people's receipts at a grocery store exit? Judging from the reactions I get, not very often!)

Quote:

Who cashes 25 cent vouchers 🙊

Uh, lots of people, and they're usually in front of me in line for the cashout kiosk :(
RS
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April 3rd, 2016 at 1:20:52 PM permalink
I'm finding this EXTREMELY hard to believe, that a casino can send a mail offer to a trespassed person and keep the trespass in tact. If this happened to you (WON), I'd have to guess there was a little something extra goin' on.
fivespot
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April 3rd, 2016 at 1:23:59 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

I've dealt with it first hand and with the gaming commission/
I also believe their is court precedent however i don't want to say who on the board knows first hand but it also was confirmed but I reputable member of the forum

I would be very interested to hear more about your case, if you're willing to say or provide a link, or about the court precedent, if anyone else can give more details.
Mission146
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April 3rd, 2016 at 1:28:58 PM permalink
Quote: RS

I'm finding this EXTREMELY hard to believe, that a casino can send a mail offer to a trespassed person and keep the trespass in tact. If this happened to you (WON), I'd have to guess there was a little something extra goin' on.



On one trespass letter I received, it specifically stated that any mail offers were erroneous and to be disregarded. In that event, they do not supercede the ban. That's a paraphrase, but you get the idea.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 1:32:15 PM permalink
No link because it never went to trial
Have dealt with it numerous times


I believe there was a podcast gam with an edge with bob nersasian years ago that said the same thing. I'm sure other members can chime in also on this.


Basic gist of issue was I was 86d from a casino .:
14months later got mail for 2500 in free play as a welcome back
It was actually worded as we have not seen you in a long time please come visit
Someone screwed up and deactivated my account the wrong way/ it was kind of funny y changed my middle name in the system to inactive - and it said my first and last name on mail with my middle name as inactive .
Went and was refused and trespassed / went to gaming and had zero results got lawyer t send letter to gaming and casino no results- lawyer came back and said don't waste your time

Edited somewhat for privacy
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Ibeatyouraces
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April 3rd, 2016 at 2:00:30 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

No link because it never went to trial
Have dealt with it numerous times


I believe there was a podcast gam with an edge with bob nersasian years ago that said the same thing. I'm sure other members can chime in also on this.


Basic gist of issue was I was 86d from a casino .:
14months later got mail for 2500 in free play as a welcome back
It was actually worded as we have not seen you in a long time please come visit
Someone screwed up and deactivated my account the wrong way/ it was kind of funny y changed my middle name in the system to inactive - and it said my first and last name on mail with my middle name as inactive .
Went and was refused and trespassed / went to gaming and had zero results got lawyer t send letter to gaming and casino no results- lawyer came back and said don't waste your time

Edited somewhat for privacy


Basically the same as "Malfunction voids all pays and plays." Marketing malfunctioned here.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 2:18:10 PM permalink
When I have free time later I'll look at Westgate but I think there has been precedence here with this issues
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GWAE
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April 3rd, 2016 at 2:37:25 PM permalink
Op if the story is one hundred percent correct then you should have gone to a manager and gaming. Hell even though you left I would still do it. I may even get a lawyer and sue intimidation and defamation.

My guess is there was money in the machine and it was lost. I believe that .25 was cashed out, just curious if $279.75 was lost on the machine.

My wife left money in the machine once. Within 10 minutes they were able to pull the numbers of the voucher from the machine and void it. If it were cashed already they would have been able to track the person easily.

On another instance when I found credits on a machine . I was tracked down 20 minutes later and threatened by no less than 3 security guards, 2 state police, and some casino manager. I gave the money back and all was good. No 86 or anything.
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Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 2:48:14 PM permalink
100!"!percent agree
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SanchoPanza
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April 3rd, 2016 at 3:04:54 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

My wife left money in the machine once. Within 10 minutes they were able to pull the numbers of the voucher from the machine and void it. If it were cashed already they would have been able to track the person easily.

How can they track people who redeem vouchers at redemption machines (or even the cage)?
Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 3:06:47 PM permalink
Each voucher has number - every time it's redeemed it' shows where and is time stamped location and time it's really pretty simple
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SanchoPanza
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April 3rd, 2016 at 3:42:31 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Each voucher has number - every time it's redeemed it' shows where and is time stamped location and time it's really pretty simple

How is it so very simple if the person who absconded with the voucher and cashed it never presented any ID?
Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 3:47:18 PM permalink
If he absconded and never had a card there or presented I'd then he isn't banned then either. Can't ban an anonymous person
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SanchoPanza
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April 3rd, 2016 at 5:21:16 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

If he absconded and never had a card there or presented I'd then he isn't banned then either. Can't ban an anonymous person

So it's clear that in this situation, "My wife left money in the machine once. Within 10 minutes they were able to pull the numbers of the voucher from the machine and void it. If it were cashed already they would have been able to track the person easily," there is inherently no way that the person who took off with and redeemed the voucher could be tracked.
Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 5:25:25 PM permalink
I'm not sure at all that I followed what you just said
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SanchoPanza
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April 3rd, 2016 at 5:57:03 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

I'm not sure at all that I followed what you just said

The assertion that someone could pick up a voucher from an unattended slot machine and then cash it without avoiding tracking is unfounded.
Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 5:59:54 PM permalink
Isn't that what I said....: that every single voucher is traceable however if a person that have never been to that casino walks in picks it up cashes it and leaves that person would not be known however the voucher itself would still be traceable
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GWAE
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April 3rd, 2016 at 6:06:30 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

The assertion that someone could pick up a voucher from an unattended slot machine and then cash it without avoiding tracking is unfounded.


Obviously if the person is unknown then you can't track. However they can track the person via camera from the time they entered until the time they left. If at anytime they used a card they would know who it was.
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Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 6:14:57 PM permalink
Correct
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DRich
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April 3rd, 2016 at 7:17:53 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

The assertion that someone could pick up a voucher from an unattended slot machine and then cash it without avoiding tracking is unfounded.



It happens quite often. Many people troll looking for credits and cash them out immediately without playing.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
djatc
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April 3rd, 2016 at 7:55:35 PM permalink
I'm waiting for what paigowdan has to say first.
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TwoFeathersATL
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April 3rd, 2016 at 8:09:40 PM permalink
You can just walk thru looking for a dollar here, 50 cents there, cash em out quick and run? First I will try this, then I will publish the book ;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
fivespot
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April 3rd, 2016 at 8:23:35 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Basic gist of issue was I was 86d from a casino .:
14months later got mail for 2500 in free play as a welcome back
It was actually worded as we have not seen you in a long time please come visit
Someone screwed up and deactivated my account the wrong way/ it was kind of funny y changed my middle name in the system to inactive - and it said my first and last name on mail with my middle name as inactive .
Went and was refused and trespassed / went to gaming and had zero results got lawyer t send letter to gaming and casino no results- lawyer came back and said don't waste your time

Not honoring a free play offer seems kinda different from, like, having you arrested for trespassing :) Are those offers even binding on the casino? I've had plenty of cases where a casino offered me freeplay throughout a month, then stopped offering it to me mid-month, or it never showed up to begin with, or whatever.

I'm curious if anyone knows of a case where someone was trespassed, got an invitation to return, did so, and was arrested for trespassing. That's what I'm expressing doubt about, not the casino's ability to deny offers by claiming they were mistakenly sent.
Wizardofnothing
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April 3rd, 2016 at 9:09:32 PM permalink
I know of people first hand that we're trespassed received an offer and then refused admittance - it didn't go so far as an arrest because they left / but there was a case mentioned in gambling with an edge
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fivespot
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April 4th, 2016 at 9:09:51 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

I know of people first hand that we're trespassed received an offer and then refused admittance - it didn't go so far as an arrest because they left / but there was a case mentioned in gambling with an edge

Well, sure, they can refuse to admit anyone they like! (for the most part)

What I believe to be the case is that, if you've been trespassed and then receive an invitation to return, you can return to the property and the worst thing that can (legally) happen is that they tell you to leave again. They aren't obliged to be nice to you, or give you anything, or not kick you out again - but the TRESPASS WARNING, the legal notification that you are not welcome on the property and can be arrested for trespassing if you set foot on their property again, is no longer in effect.

I've yet to see any evidence that this isn't the case, and would be very interested to see such evidence.
Wizard
Administrator
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April 4th, 2016 at 9:51:39 PM permalink
Quote: fivespot

I'm curious if anyone knows of a case where someone was trespassed, got an invitation to return, did so, and was arrested for trespassing.



As I understand the story, somebody was trespassed from somewhere, got a mailer, returned to get the free play under the assumption the mailer voided the trespass, was approached by security and back-roomed. I'm not sure what happened in the back-room but in the end the player got a six-figure settlement. I'm not sure if he got it because the mailer indeed voided the trespass or they got physical in the back-room. This happened I think the 80's or early 90's, when there was still more of an "old school" attitude. Sorry I can't be more specific but I got this story second hand.

Communication between departments in a casino is very poor. If you are trespassed, I wouldn't expect marketing to quickly know about it, if they ever do. So, I wouldn't assume that getting mail means they want you back. Whether it legally voids a trespass, I'm not sure, but I tend to think it doesn't.

I'd also like to agree with those who say that security cameras are very powerful. I'm pretty sure they can read a serial number off a slot ticket or dollar bill as long as it is in plain view anywhere in the casino. This was demonstrated to me at the South Point surveillance office.

Getting to the OP -- I would bet on this being a case of mistaken identity. However, I wouldn't necessarily rule out rogue security employees, who made up the whole thing and hoped to just pocket the $280, a figure they came up with as maximizing the product of the amount and the probability the victim will produce it.
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RS
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April 5th, 2016 at 12:31:39 AM permalink
Of course, getting a mailer doesn't mean they want you back. But there are plenty of people whom they don't want to return but are still able to return (i.e.: drunks fleas shot takers rude people etc.). The way I see it, if they invite you back, you can legally return, otherwise: entrapment.

Doesn't mean they won't kick you out again and re-trespass you. Doesn't mean they want you back. Doesn't mean they'll honor the free-play, free rooms or food, etc. Or that they won't try to do typical back-room-like tactics, call the police and/or get you arrested. And of course, it probably is not the smartest thing to return to a casino where you've been trespassed or a semi-trespass.

But legally speaking, I can't see one valid reason why the trespass would still be in effect after getting a mailer invited to come back.
AxelWolf
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April 5th, 2016 at 1:54:44 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I agree. An offer does not nullify a trespass. After all, creating and mailing those things takes time. It make take a while to remove you from the list, etc.

However, if after a reasonable amount of time, you get an offer for free rooms, and are able to book it, that sounds like you're invited back. Of course I wouldn't try it is unless you're a Las Vegas local. There's nothing like arriving at the hotel to find out a room reservation was canceled…

I know there's been some debate about this. If the invitation went out prior to the 86'ing then I would agree. But if it was sent after lets after 90 days(seems like a standard reasonable amount of time)

I even think Bob N has discussed it and said he didn't think it's a solid defense(I think) but has it ever been tested in a court or anything? Is there anything solid that shows an invite after the fact is automatically voided because of a previous trespassing? I disagree with that opinion especially using an example of an email I have received.

Years later i'm still getting personalized emails telling me to come play for x promotion. If they don't want me back then IMO it's their responsibility to make sure they stop sending me enticing letters and emails.

I want to know if you were trespassed, if after a reasonable amount of time you received something that included your name inviting you back if you were detained or arrested would you be 99% certain the charges would be dropped, and would you have a good case?
HAPPY BIRTHDAY

XXXXXXXX
A warm and fabulous happy birthday from all of us!
Join us to celebrate and enjoy your special offers with us

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
This offer expires on XXXXXXXXXXX. Please present certificate receipt of this offer to XXXXXXX Limit one certificate per person. Certificate may only be used once. Offer cannot be combined with any other special offers, discounts or promotions. Tax and Gratuity not included. Management reserves all rights.

I have received 56 emails and 10 snail mails in 3 years after the 86ing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Lets say someone requested to be taken off the mailing list from a place where they added themselves to a self exclusion list because of a gambling problem, but they kept receiving mail and that triggered them to go in and lose a bundle of cash.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Wizardofnothing
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April 5th, 2016 at 3:42:27 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I know there's been some debate about this. If the invitation went out prior to the 86'ing then I would agree. But if it was sent after lets after 90 days(seems like a standard reasonable amount of time)

I even think Bob N has discussed it and said he didn't think it's a solid defense(I think) but has it ever been tested in a court or anything? Is there anything solid that shows an invite after the fact is automatically voided because of a previous trespassing? I disagree with that opinion especially using an example of an email I have received.

Years later i'm still getting personalized emails telling me to come play for x promotion. If they don't want me back then IMO it's their responsibility to make sure they stop sending me enticing letters and emails.

I want to know if you were trespassed, if after a reasonable amount of time you received something that included your name inviting you back if you were detained or arrested would you be 99% certain the charges would be dropped, and would you have a good case?
HAPPY BIRTHDAY

XXXXXXXX
A warm and fabulous happy birthday from all of us!
Join us to celebrate and enjoy your special offers with us

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
This offer expires on XXXXXXXXXXX. Please present certificate receipt of this offer to XXXXXXX Limit one certificate per person. Certificate may only be used once. Offer cannot be combined with any other special offers, discounts or promotions. Tax and Gratuity not included. Management reserves all rights.

I have received 56 emails and 10 snail mails in 3 years after the 86ing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Lets say someone requested to be taken off the mailing list from a place where they added themselves to a self exclusion list because of a gambling problem, but they kept receiving mail and that triggered them to go in and lose a bundle of cash.





Axel/ with the last comment about self exclusion, that HAS happened in Atlantic city and the casinos face fines. It's been published on the record more then a couple times and also happened again in Ac when they started online and marketed to people who were self excluded s
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RonC
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April 5th, 2016 at 4:26:15 AM permalink
one thread one post three days ago...interesting start...
beachbumbabs
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April 5th, 2016 at 5:36:03 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

one thread one post three days ago...interesting start...



Yeah, was just looking at that myself. She hasn't returned (at least hasn't signed back in) to read the replies. Could be reading without signing in, though.
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darkoz
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April 5th, 2016 at 9:03:40 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Yeah, was just looking at that myself. She hasn't returned (at least hasn't signed back in) to read the replies. Could be reading without signing in, though.



The OP may have gotten her answers elsewhere. She was probably reaching out to multiple sources. Always nice to have new people joining but can't expect them all to be loyal or avid. Hopefully, she will come back.
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Sandybestdog
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April 6th, 2016 at 9:52:50 AM permalink
I was trespassed and continued to receive offers for about a month after until my online account was eventually locked and the offers stopped. I'm not going to attempt to go back but what would worry me is that the letter they sent me said that if I was caught trespassing, any wins would be forfeited. So if you were to get a big payout, they could just say they aren't paying you.

While I'm no fan of casino security, I recently had a good experience with them. I was playing at Sands Bethlehem and went to take a break. I had about $260 in chips on the table and as usual was just going to leave them there. I decided to take the $200 in green with me and leave the red cause I didn't want them to give up the seat. I got back a few minutes later and my chips were gone. I thought maybe they locked them up but I wasn't gone that long. I asked the dealer and then the pit boss. They had no idea what I was talking about. I assured them that I left a stack of about $60 in reds on the table. The pit boss called security. About 15 minutes later, two security managers came to the table and asked me if I was missing chips. I said yes. They handed me 3 $20's and said that somebody sat down and played them and then left. They said they tracked them down while they were still in the casino. Small slither of good in a nasty industry.
Paigowdan
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April 6th, 2016 at 10:38:27 AM permalink
Quote: djatc

I'm waiting for what paigowdan has to say first.


Thanks, I'm honored....

There are two sides to every story, with one side usually more wrong on an absolute scale.

1. The casino is usually accurate as to what people are doing; they have a lot of experience, but are also overly suspicious at times. Maybe the OP's account was accurate, maybe it was not, or shaded, I didn't see the surveillance video.

2. A casino asks you to leave, then you leave and be done with it. Go to another place. If the casino was indeed mistaken, but the people were not arrested or back-roomed, and are out no real money (25 cents), I don't see it as a life-altering event, even though a few would see it as a despicable back-rooming event and recommend calling Bob Nersesian to fight for justice and the American Way. You can say either "These people are morons, what the hell, what's new under the sun," or say "I'm ruined for life, - branded for life! - and I'm calling Bob" - or anything in between. You could write a letter to Stations explaining the situation, that no such thing happened, and ask to be re-instated, if that important.

3. Being barred from a local's casino chain can be viewed like being barred from Arthur Treacher's Fish 'n' Chips for life; there are so many options, the loss of one middle-of-the-road chain is no big deal. Card counters juggle places that they can still go to, and go there they do. It can even bestow bragging rights "Look at THIS! Tommy Carmichael don't have squat on me!" You can even have tongue-in-cheek tee shirts made commemorating your life in casino crime with a story to tell.

There are things in everyone's life that appear as if they were scripted by Franz Kafka, but are less important than the emotional import applied to it. Personally, if it were important to me, I'd write a letter to Stations explaining the situation, and be done with it.

If it weren't for all the people involved, I wouldn't be surprised if it were just a broke-a@@ security guard shaking down some people for about $300. ("Pay us the $280 and all is forgotten...") There's probably no record of it. Indeed, if you made the claim that that was what these guys were doing in your belief, AND the surveillance video showed that the OPs were on the up-and-up, the guards would be viewed as either incompetents - or crooks themselves, - and they would be shown the door.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Apr 6, 2016
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DRich
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April 6th, 2016 at 11:16:02 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


3. Being barred from a local's casino chain can be viewed like being barred from Arthur Treacher's Fish 'n' Chips for life; there are so many options, the loss of one middle-of-the-road chain is no big deal. Card counters juggle places that they can still go to, and go there they do. It can even bestow bragging rights "Look at THIS! Tommy Carmichael don't have squat on me!" You can even have tongue-in-cheek tee shirts made commemorating your life in casino crime with a story to tell.



Awesome, probably the first Arthur Treacher's reference ever on a gaming forum. I haven't been to one in over thirty years (not because I was barred, lol).
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
CathyLV
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April 6th, 2016 at 11:24:48 AM permalink
Sorry, I did come back and found the post without logging in. I'll answer a few questions:

1-The machine my husband played had no credits in it when he inserted his money

2-We cash out all vouchers, even 25 cent ones, it's our money

3-We didn't want to drag out the situation, as we had food and were just taken aback by the entire situation

4-If security knew who my husband was from his players card, why didn't they know that he had a 25 cent voucher from the last machine played?

There really is no more to the story. It's just a baffling story.
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