I miss Vermenti and/or This Forum is Infested with Bullies

Quote: s2dbaker

Quote: Wizard

Member	Suspended On	Number Days	Reason	Suspension Ends
JerryLogan	2/22/11	Life	Nuclear option invoked	Death

Buy his soul and extend the ban beyond death. Please...

I think a few more people should be banned, especially those who goaded and insulted him directly. Those are personal insults, and they need to be dealt with. They bring down the quality of this forum overall.

Varmenti's a local, so a 716 Area code number cannot be him. The research into his life that other people did was essentially correct. His player's card that he shows in the photo are the original version, circa 1996.

At some point, i will make the 10 minute journey down to Fallsview in the daytime and visit the Asian pits to see if he exists. But given the pictures that he posted which includes pictures of food and plates within the casino, I have no doubt that he exists and probably lives within walking distance of Fallsview.

I have no doubt that gr8player and varmenti are two different characters, as gr8 was out of AC where Varmenti is NF. I have no doubt that ontariodealer is as a real member as s/he had real activity well before this started up. I think that the other Fallsview dealer that was on the site was likely real as well but not very fluent in English. S/he may have been a dup as well.

On behalf of Canada, I apologize for varmenti's behaviour. Such behaviour is not typical.

Quote: boymimbo

I think a few more people should be banned, especially those who goaded and insulted him directly. Those are personal insults, and they need to be dealt with. They bring down the quality of this forum overall.

+1 As the Supreme Court justice once said that he knew porn when he saw it, some of us know bullying when we read it.

Pretty much the same folks goaded Ahigh as well into his losing it and eventually getting banned from the forum for a while. Even the last few posts on that lingering thread are filled with insults about his singing voice which he can't respond to (unless he logs in as yet another new member and goes to town), are uncalled for and would be classified as bullying. It's happened before, and nothing gets done about it.

We can be gentle about dissuading someone from believing that a system exists, or we can be plain insulting. With Varmenti, he had a system based on streaks that he believed was working. Was he likely exaggerating? Absolutely.

Truly, he probably believed that he had something, and alot of us have been sucked in to believing that positive variance with a betting strategy means a winning system. That doesn't mean we should be dissing his singing voice.

But this site generally is about the math so any betting system or cheating method will be berated into its inevitable submission. It's like a bunch of hyenas surrounding the lame zebra.

Quote: boymimbo

Pretty much the same folks goaded Ahigh as well into his losing it and eventually getting banned from the forum for a while. Even the last few posts on that lingering thread are filled with insults about his singing voice which he can't respond to (unless he logs in as yet another new member and goes to town), are uncalled for and would be classified as bullying. It's happened before, and nothing gets done about it.

We can be gentle about dissuading someone from believing that a system exists, or we can be plain insulting. With Varmenti, he had a system based on streaks that he believed was working. Was he likely exaggerating? Absolutely.

Truly, he probably believed that he had something, and alot of us have been sucked in to believing that positive variance with a betting strategy means a winning system. That doesn't mean we should be dissing his singing voice.

But this site generally is about the math so any betting system or cheating method will be berated into its inevitable submission. It's like a bunch of hyenas surrounding the lame zebra.

Well put, boymimbo.

The door swings both ways. If you think people in here are bullies, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Quote: boymimbo

Even the last few posts on that lingering thread are filled with insults about his singing voice which he can't respond to (unless he logs in as yet another new member and goes to town), are uncalled for and would be classified as bullying.

So in your world when somebody posts a Youtube
video and it gets criticized, that's bullying? Were the
people who commented on Youtube that it sucked
bullies too? Are Rex Reed and all movie critics bullies?

Let me guess. You went to one of those schools where
everybody won and nobody lost, and you got trophies
and awards just for showing up. Now you're in the real
world and everything is just sooooo unfair.

Just ignore Bob, he thinks kids should be subjected to all sorts of bullying and violence at school. Like Dodgeball.

Quote: boymimbo

Pretty much the same folks goaded Ahigh as well into his losing it and eventually getting banned from the forum for a while. Even the last few posts on that lingering thread are filled with insults about his singing voice which he can't respond to (unless he logs in as yet another new member and goes to town), are uncalled for and would be classified as bullying. It's happened before, and nothing gets done about it.

I've now defended his singing in this post:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/15164-baccarat-partner-betting/107/#post279626

However, once you put certain things in the public domain, they tend to become fair game. Nobody asked him to use his first initial and last name as his handle here, mention that he is a singer or any of those things. All of this stuff could be avoided, but he put it all out there. I just don't know that anyone would run around looking for YouTube videos of him if he'd had a handle that did not involve his name, or if he'd had the same handle, but did not mention he is a singer...one or the other.

Quote: boymimbo

Pretty much the same folks goaded Ahigh as well into his losing it and eventually getting banned from the forum for a while.

Bad analogy. At least Ahigh takes a position that is debatable, while varmenti, gr8player, and the rest of their ilk want to say that 2 + 2 = 3. And then they have the nerve to cry foul when they're harshly criticized. Lame.

And for the record, Ahigh is a good guy. (Comparing him to varmenti is an insult to Ahigh)

Even the last few posts on that lingering thread are filled with insults about his singing voice which he can't respond to (unless he logs in as yet another new member and goes to town), are uncalled for and would be classified as bullying.

Is Bill Maher a bully?
Is Jon Stewart a bully?
Is David Letterman a bully?

(I doubt you'll say yes to any of these)

With Varmenti, he had a system based on streaks that he believed was working. Was he likely exaggerating? Absolutely.

Ignoring basic math is more than simply 'exaggerating'.

boymimbo's next post:

I think a few more people should be banned, especially those who goaded and insulted him directly. Those are personal insults, and they need to be dealt with.

Let's see, so varmenti makes an ugly racist remark against Indians, and your excuse is...he was bullied into it? He threatens to commit a federal crime, but again, it's OK because...he was bullied into it?

C'mon, man! That excuse didn't work for Michael Richards when he was heckled by those black guys in his audience, and it shouldn't work for varmenti/Lilchef62/BlueEZ. (That excuse wouldn't work in federal court, either)

Varmenti's a local, so a 716 Area code number cannot be him.

Apparently you aren't aware of people out there who have more than one cell phone. Years ago, when I owned a business, I had two phones with neighboring area codes. These days, it's even easier—ANYONE can go to Google Voice and get a phone number with literally any area code in the US. So to say that "a 716 area code number cannot be him" is a little naive.

His player's card that he shows in the photo are the original version, circa 1996...But given the pictures that he posted which includes pictures of food and plates within the casino, I have no doubt that he exists and probably lives within walking distance of Fallsview.

Pictures mean nothing. I can post a picture of Santa Claus, but does that mean I am Santa? I can post pictures of food & plates in Timbuktoo, but what the heck does that prove? Please don't tell me you're that naive, bro. Scammers steal pics all the time. While I do agree that a man named 'Vince Armenti' who lives in Canada more than likely exists, is this the same person who posted here on WoV? Maybe...maybe not.

I have no doubt that gr8player and varmenti are two different characters, as gr8 was out of AC where Varmenti is NF.

How do you know that the person who posts as 'varmenti' is in Niagara Falls and that the person who posts as 'gr8player' is in Atlantic City? Because they told you so?????? *facepalm*

I have no doubt that ontariodealer is as a real member as s/he had real activity well before this started up. I think that the other Fallsview dealer that was on the site was likely real as well but not very fluent in English. S/he may have been a dup as well.

We have some real dealers on this forum, but NONE have ever disclosed the activities of a player and wouldn't even think of doing so. Yet this is exactly what Lilchef62 did. Also, his/her misspelling of the word 'seems' was exactly the same way varmenti misspelled it. Coincidence? I think not!

On behalf of Canada, I apologize for varmenti's behaviour. Such behaviour is not typical.

Finally, something we can agree on! I've been to Canada many times, and Canadians are lovely people. (And to be totally honest, they're generally friendlier than Americans)

Quote: EvenBob

So in your world when somebody posts a Youtube
video and it gets criticized, that's bullying?

If that was bullying, then Bill Maher, Jon Stewart, David Letterman, etc. are even worse bullies. (For some reason though, I don't think the member who made the bullying accusation would make the same accusations against these guys)

If somebody claims that 2 + 2 = 3, then they should expect some harsh criticism.

Gotta side with boymimbo on this one. See Rule 12...

"12. No bullying/trolling: Members are expected to act like ladies and gentlemen. Members may not be overly divisive or abusive to another member."

Regardless of your personal definition of bullying/trolling, gr8player for one has personally stated he was being bullied/trolled. IMO, that alone should be enough. If someone wishes for that to stop, then the gentleman would stop.

See also, MathExtremist. ME battled gr8player for the same reasons most have. He was also a complete gentleman and kept things polite, using the only tool that need be used - the Fact Hammer. He did not need sarcasm or derision; he argued his position with solid information.

The internet is huge. In the 3% that isn't porn, you'll find all the flaming and trolling you need to get your jollies. This is one of the very few places one can still come for intelligent, proper communication. Let's try to preserve that.

Side note: As one of the two 716'ers here, it wasn't me. Last time I tried to contact Buzz, the Feds came asking questions... lesson learned ;)

I kind of feel sorry for Varmenti, I think the guy is a good singer, At least better then most. I will give him some props for that, probably a fun guy to party with.

This is what I think of his BAC system. I think he realized his Rock Star dreams were over, due to age. What better way to be a Rock Star then to become a Professional Gambler and finally get some respect (HA!) I think he met himself a girl with some money. He convinced her to fund some BAC he had some successful runs. That was probably followed up with some much needed attention, he felt he had some talent (note BAC is probably the least talented table game ever) After his successful variance, he then went on a bad streak. The Gambler's conceit or what ever you want to call it set in, however he needed a way to fund his System. He thought he could somehow convince other loved ones and friends to invest, when this failed, he came up with a plan to get investors>>>>WOV.....He tried to gain a FAKE reputation claiming he was a winning pro gambler. Wrong place for that, considering the talented gambling experts here + EvenBob and Gr8Beethoven, he never had a chance. After he realized no one was biting, he started making up things and fake accounts to back up his stories. He could not keep his stories str8 and He was caught in lies and exaggerations. Looks like he sang his way out because.... he finally just went ♪♪off the rails on a crazy train♪♪

in tribute to GR8VARM Ozzy Osbourne - Crazy Train http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MLp7YNTznE

Quote: Face

Side note: As one of the two 716'ers here, it wasn't me.)

Me neither!

Not that it matters, but I wholly disagree with Mission's stance on the bullying, even after a fitful sleep.

The fact is that most people on this site are smart enough to stay anonymous. A few aren't. It's completely fair to argue about a position. It's completely unfair and wrong to attack a person's character when it has nothing to do with the argument.

Who cares if Varmenti's in a band? Who cares what his phone number is? Who cares what his dating profile was? The answer *should be* nobody, because it has nothing to do with the argument.

There are plenty of people on this forum who purport to be something they are not - they have an online 'persona' that differs from their real self.

Varmenti crossed the line, as Ahigh did, when he brought his personal life into the argument, especially the photos of his car and his family, because it invited his personal life to be attacked. Because he brought his personal life to link his winnings to personal details, it then became subject to criticism.

But two wrongs don't make a right. I would hope that this forum would realize that the quality of the forum is better than this:

From the thread in question:

Quote: EvenBob

Varmenti, don't you think a pic of you in front of Microsoft waving, or a pic of you shaking hands with The Donald, or even in your car fondling hundred's from the ATM, don't you think any of them would get more women than a pic of a middle aged guy in a T shirt singing in a cover band?

Quote: EvenBob

Hey Varmenti, ran across this interesting page you wrote on a dating site.... This has to be within the last 5 years, you say you're 45 there.
Why did you list singer/song writer as your profession when you told us you worked for Microsoft and have been a pro gambler since 1996? Singer/song writer (without a car) sounds like a middle aged loser who lives in his mom's basement.

Pro gambler who has beaten BJ, roulette, slots and bac, as you have claimed here, and who also works for Microsoft, seems like a much more substantial guy than a singer/songwriter, which is what a High School kid puts on his resume.

Also, you make so many grammatical and punctuation errors, it sounds like you have a 5th grade education. [b[How on earth did MS hire you with an obvious lack of any skills whatsoever?

Quote: EvenBob

No 'skanky' sex, though, he's no 'sex toy'. Does he really believe women have 45 year old men as sex toys? How old are these women, 78?

Quote: Beethoven9th

Here's one of the women who responded to gr8varmenti's ad: (picture of old lady with caption "should dentures be removed before trying that")

I'd go off the rails too with insults like that.

Quote: boymimbo

Who cares if Varmenti's in a band? Who cares what his phone number is?

Why did he bring it up in the first place?

Quote: boymimbo

I'd go off the rails too with insults like that.

Are you serious??? You'd go "off the rails" and use ugly racial slurs against Indians & threaten to commit a federal crime...all because of something that somebody (whom you don't even know) said on an anonymous internet forum? Wow.

There are many things in life worth going "off the rails" for, but that ain't one of them, IMHO.

Anyway, according to your logic, Statler & Waldorf must be bullies.

So two wrongs make a right?

Nope, but since there was only one wrong (not two) by varmenti/Lilchef62/BlueEZ, that principle doesn't apply. (Can't believe someone's actually justifying racist remarks against Indians and threats to commit a federal crime)

And a post count for all your comments?

Posting a well-known internet meme may be interpreted as 'mocking', but certainly not 'bullying'.

This site seems to have become, at least in part, a new Gambler's Glen.

I believe that some posters from that now moribund site have come here.

The tone and nature of the arguments employed is a good clue.

Quote: Beethoven9th

Anyway, according to your logic, Statler & Waldorf must be bullies.

Statler & Waldorf insulted what was on stage, not what Miss Piggy's love interest with Kermit behind the scenes. There's a difference. It's absolutely fine to attack the system, not okay to attack the person.

And yes, this is an internet forum, but it's supposed to be a good one. Do we want to lower to the quality of the forum to the comments we see on youtube, or do we want to raise the bar a little bit. Given the forum rules that Wizard and Mission created, I think the bar is set pretty high on this particular forum.

Quote: boymimbo

Statler & Waldorf insulted what was on stage, not what Miss Piggy's love interest with Kermit behind the scenes. There's a difference. It's absolutely fine to attack the system, not okay to attack the person.

I disagree, because I don't feel that posting a video (which was already publicly available on one of the Top 3 websites in the world) is considered 'bullying'. For instance, I just posted Rebecca Black's "Friday" video in that same thread. So am I bullying her now? I don't think most reasonable people would say so.

Quote: boymimbo

Do we want to lower to the quality of the forum to the comments we see on youtube, or do we want to raise the bar a little bit.

You act like all threads here have been derailed. Only a tiny percentage has. And now that varmenti/Lilchef62/BlueEZ is gone, the biggest problems here have vanished.

Quote: boymimbo

Not that it matters, but I wholly disagree with Mission's stance on the bullying, even after a fitful sleep.

The fact is that most people on this site are smart enough to stay anonymous. A few aren't. It's completely fair to argue about a position. It's completely unfair and wrong to attack a person's character when it has nothing to do with the argument.

Who cares if Varmenti's in a band? Who cares what his phone number is? Who cares what his dating profile was? The answer *should be* nobody, because it has nothing to do with the argument.

There are plenty of people on this forum who purport to be something they are not - they have an online 'persona' that differs from their real self.

Varmenti crossed the line, as Ahigh did, when he brought his personal life into the argument, especially the photos of his car and his family, because it invited his personal life to be attacked. Because he brought his personal life to link his winnings to personal details, it then became subject to criticism.

But two wrongs don't make a right. I would hope that this forum would realize that the quality of the forum is better than this:

I'm not going to deny that you make some excellent points, and your points certainly speak to a desired type of general conduct to which we should all adhere, but with respect to Forum Rules, I'm not sure if it is applicable.

We have the Statler & Waldorf standard on this Forum, and whether or not an insult falls within that standard is largely a subjective determination. Given your comments, I may need to consider being a little less lax on this standard, but as of the time these messages were posted, they fell within my interpretation of said standard.

With respect to the Philosophy forum I used to moderate, we had a very simple standard of, "No Ad Hominem Attack." You simply couldn't do it. 50% (or more) of the recent comments directed towards Varmenti would have been insta-bans. The only thing that you're allowed to do is attack the argument.

I'm not sure which standard is better, the S&W standard certainly allow for a little bit of flavor and light sarcasm. S&W style insults can often be highly amusing and entertaining, which is one of the purposes (I'm assuming) for allowing same. On the other hand, "No ad hominem attacks," was a very hard and fast Rule, there were no subjective determinations to be made as to what was or was not within the Rules, it's either an ad hom attack, or it isn't.

I'm unsure that saying he is a bad singer constitutes a character attack, it doesn't really speak to him as a person, but rather to abilities that he perceives himself to have that he put out there to be judged. There's no question that he put it out there, it's his YouTube account. Now, I have voiced my disagreements with the commentary concerning his singing, specifically, I happen to think he is a pretty good singer who is very limited in range and should stick to certain songs...specifically those with a fast tempo, at least, from what I have heard.

When it comes to attacks on his singing (or lack thereof) I think much of that comes down to the respect that he has garnered on this Forum. As a former lead vocalist, I certainly have my strengths and weaknesses...and more of the latter than the former. I would imagine that if I posted a YouTube video of the, "Wrong," song for me, that it would be largely ignored by this Forum because I have garnered (I hope) a mutual respect with the majority of the posters here. If I made a video of songs best suited to my very limited skill set, then I'd probably get some compliments.

The lack of respect that people have for Varmenti, however, is not generated by what some people seem to perceive as an inability to sing, but rather, by postings and arguments that he has made that predate his videos coming to light on this site. It is because of this lack of respect that individuals feel compelled to rip his videos asunder. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do, but it's within the S&W standard...and even if it weren't...these attacks occurred (I believe) after Varmenti was no longer a Member, so he's not protected by that Rule anyway.

I would also extend the, "Not a member anymore," argument to any posts about anything else having to do with Varmenti, while not addressing them specifically.

However, don't misinterpret these comments to be a disagreement with your overall position, as I happen to agree with your overall position. I personally do not feel compelled to disparage Varmenti any further for any reason, and rather, I feel compelled to defend him if I believe an attack (such as that on his singing) is misplaced or inaccurate. However, we're just talking about matters of personal taste and decorum, now, which don't necessarily extend themselves to Forum Rules. With respect to Forum Rules, I see no violations.

Quote: Mission146

these attacks occurred (I believe) after Varmenti was no longer a Member, so he's not protected by that Rule anyway.

Unless he resigned, or you converted his 476 year suspension to a full ban, he remains a member of this site.

It took (little) work to find varmenti, link his dating profile, find his band interests, and post them on this forum, and then criticize them. All of these things have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Thanks for your explanation Mission.

Quote: Mission146

With respect to Forum Rules, I see no violations.

#12. No Bullying/Trolling.

Trolling - verb ;
1. Being a prick on the internet because you can
2. The art of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly pissing people off, usually via the internet, using dialogue.
3. Trolling is trying to get a rise out of someone. Forcing them to respond to you, either through wise-crackery, posting incorrect information, asking blatantly stupid questions, or other foolishness
4. Trolling is the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet, generally on message boards

Source: UrbanDictionary.com

I'm as big a fan of S&W as the next guy; I think it was a great addition as things can get pretty dry on a math site. And c'mon, we got some whipcrack, grade A smartasses here that are good for a giggle.

But life requires balance, and I agree with boymimbo; it feels off as of late. Rule 12 has undeniably been broken. And as MrV offered, there's too much of a GG vibe in here.

We need to get back to center.

Quote: Face

#12. No Bullying/Trolling.
But life requires balance, and I agree with boymimbo; it feels off as of late. Rule 12 has undeniably been broken. And as MrV offered, there's too much of a GG vibe in here.

We need to get back to center.

Agreed.

I respectfully disagree. Other than the varmenti/Lilchef62/BlueEZ threads, everything here is pretty much the same as it's ever been.

Quote: rdw4potus

Unless he resigned, or you converted his 476 year suspension to a full ban, he remains a member of this site.

I could be inclined to construe the threat of a DDoS attack as an effective resignation.

Quote: boymimbo

It took (little) work to find varmenti, link his dating profile, find his band interests, and post them on this forum, and then criticize them. All of these things have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Thanks for your explanation Mission.

No problem!

Quote: Beethoven9th

I respectfully disagree. Other than the varmenti/Lilchef62/BlueEZ threads, everything here is pretty much the same as it's ever been.

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the show?

Quote: Face

I'm as big a fan of S&W as the next guy; I think it was a great addition as things can get pretty dry on a math site. And c'mon, we got some whipcrack, grade A smartasses here that are good for a giggle.

But life requires balance, and I agree with boymimbo; it feels off as of late. Rule 12 has undeniably been broken. And as MrV offered, there's too much of a GG vibe in here.

We need to get back to center.

I certainly agree with your position here, but unfortunately, I feel that the cause of these symptoms on this site has been largely eradicated. We may need to adopt stricter interpretations of these Rules in the future to avoid these type of, "Off-balance," situations.

In other words, since the alleged trolling/bullying involved Varmenti (and, again, whether or not these Rules are violated is a subjective determination) and Varmenti is now gone, the alleged trolling/bullying should also be greatly reduced. We have at least one other controversial Member, who shall go unnamed, and lessons having been learnt, he may be spared some of this alleged trolling/bullying pursuant to a stricter interpretation of the Rules.

Although, I cannot singularly make the call as to whether or not these Rules are to be more strictly interpreted, so that's something I will need to discuss with Wizard. It's important to keep in mind that, "System guys," who adamantly refuse to listen to mathematical fact and continue to incessantly post complete and utter nonsense might not afford themselves some of the protections that would otherwise go to Members with mathematically and logically sound contributions.

My first thread on this Forum was a betting systems thread, though I was very polite and not completely deaf to mathematical facts. Darwinism. Adapt or be destroyed.

Quote: TheNightfly

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the show?

LOL

All I'm saying is that since the offender is now gone, there are no more problems here. Well, at least none that are out of the ordinary. :)

Quote: Mission146

It's important to keep in mind that, "System guys," who adamantly refuse to listen to mathematical fact and continue to incessantly post complete and utter nonsense might not afford themselves some of the protections that would otherwise go to Members with mathematically and logically sound contributions.

I am well aware of Wiz's feelings on systems and those who promote them. I'll just offer that those who are the antithesis to teliot when it comes to mathematical prowess (See also: Face) learn a ton from these very threads. Because anytime one pops up, it's only a matter of time before MathExtremist or 7craps or miplet or thecesspit or a hundred other math savvy heroes come in and set everything straight.

In this way, even the "garbage" has value.

Shredding a system is educating. Shredding a poster is irritating.

/defender mode off

Well stated Face! Add me to the list of people who learn things when these 'systems' are debunked.

And I am in 100% agreement with you and boyimbo about the center of this forum too.

Quote: Face

I am well aware of Wiz's feelings on systems and those who promote them. I'll just offer that those who are the antithesis to teliot when it comes to mathematical prowess (See also: Face) learn a ton from these very threads. Because anytime one pops up, it's only a matter of time before MathExtremist or 7craps or miplet or thecesspit or a hundred other math savvy heroes come in and set everything straight.

In this way, even the "garbage" has value.

Shredding a system is educating. Shredding a poster is irritating.

/defender mode off

That's an excellent and irrefutable point, and might I say, that you're 100x the Philosopher that I could ever hope to be.

Of course, you're absolutely right. The greater purpose of both WoO and WoV is, ultimately, gambling education and discussion, and the dismantling of gambling systems is a great part of that education. The dismantling also occurs across many disciplines such as, computer programming, extremely advanced math that I don't necessarily understand, and even the comparatively primitive long-form Algebra...which happens to be my go-to when trying to prove the ineffectiveness of a system.

Yes, this post is absolutely right. Varmenti, at a minimum, offered specifics about his system such that it could be contested mathematically and in a meaningful way. I should have stepped in and toned things down as relates to the treatment of him by other Members...perhaps not in terms of what was said...but certainly in terms of the redundancy with which it was being said.

I suppose no individual statement was really a problem or should be construed as a violation, but the cumulative statements being made constituted undue bullying and reflected poorly on the site.

In any case, I did not handle the situation optimally, my defense of the way I did handle the situation is flimsy, so everyone here has my apologies.

Quote: Face

I am well aware of Wiz's feelings on systems and those who promote them. I'll just offer that those who are the antithesis to teliot when it comes to mathematical prowess (See also: Face) learn a ton from these very threads. Because anytime one pops up, it's only a matter of time before MathExtremist or 7craps or miplet or thecesspit or a hundred other math savvy heroes come in and set everything straight.

In this way, even the "garbage" has value.

Shredding a system is educating. Shredding a poster is irritating.

/defender mode off

I believe many valid points have been raised in all quarters, with Face saying exactly what I think about all of this. Very well stated, Face. And nice brevity, too; I am working to be less verbose, and your stance would have taken me a page and a half to express.

I do not think Mission has anything to apologize for, myself. Sometimes it is Lord of the Flies in here; I do not like the ad hominem or off-topic attacks, even if they're not personally directed, and I try not to get lulled into making a smart remark at the expense of someone else. In this I agree with boymimbo, and I have not joined several other forums because of their prevalence.

But MangoJ said it best for me a while back; you start with respect, and earn disrespect. I was perceived early on as a bully re: the Mission McNugget Challenge by varmenti, which I argued at first, then let go of it, because I can't dictate how he might perceive my argument on facts. But I also noticed that he subsequently made that claim against others when he felt cornered or exposed on things he couldn't or wouldn't back up as the situation progressed, even though the comments I'm thinking of were not off-topic or personally directed.

There is a great value in allowing criticism, no matter how harsh, to reign unchecked in a specialized forum such as this when presenting a system, a game, a math theory among peers and superiors. I expect to feel it myself and am resolved to take nothing personally when I post my game next Friday (that is a firm date: the 25th) for the forum to ignore, criticize, or praise as they will, and answer any questions and comments to the best of my ability. Varmenti should have expected no less, given the demographics of the forum he joined. And it was assumed by a lot of us, in assuming positive intent re: Mango, that he had a system that he wanted vetted and discussed, that he seriously wanted to join in the prop betting, that he wanted to find a place among peers. It was offered; he earned his eventual alienation.

All these fine comments about hurt feelings, bullying , etc belong over on DT.

If you can not stand the heat, get the hell out of this kitchen. PERIOD

If you feel passionate about your position, let it stand on itself.

Takes two to troll. Consider the source and just ignore it.

If you can't do that, then just shut up !

BABS is gonna post her game here. Trust me, she knows it will be attacked. That's the reason for posting it.

DJ Teddy has taken fire about Poker for Roulette. ( and rightfully so ) LOL

The Luck Brothers were under assault from day one about Riverboat Roulette and are better for it. They made needed changes before
G2E.

As for the fairness of any suspension, Mike is the final arbitrator. It's his house.

I feel lucky to be a guest and have my transgression overlooked. I mean, why some people take me serious, I have no idea !

Face and I really need to get together for a beer. He'll be in a good mood, as the Leafs are 6-1. Maybe we can play some Pai Gow Poker at Fallsview and see if Varmenti shows up! Just leave your gun(s) at home.

Quote: boymimbo

It took (little) work to find varmenti, link his dating profile, find his band interests, and post them on this forum, and then criticize them. All of these things have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

"Doxing" (going to outside sources and digging up info on forum members including their work, dating, interests, etc.) is an unpleasant practice and should be considered unseemly on a forum of this caliber.

Quote: teddys

"Doxing" (going to outside sources and digging up info on forum members including their work, dating, interests, etc.) is an unpleasant practice and should be considered unseemly on a forum of this caliber.

Agreed.

ZCore13

Quote: teddys

"Doxing" (going to outside sources and digging up info on forum members including their work, dating, interests, etc.) is an unpleasant practice and should be considered unseemly on a forum of this caliber.

A cowardly course of action !

Quote: Buzzard

All these fine comments about hurt feelings, bullying , etc belong over on DT.

If you can not stand the heat, get the hell out of this kitchen. PERIOD

If you feel passionate about your position, let it stand on itself.

Takes two to troll. Consider the source and just ignore it.

If you can't do that, then just shut up !

BABS is gonna post her game here. Trust me, she knows it will be attacked. That's the reason for posting it.

DJ Teddy has taken fire about Poker for Roulette. ( and rightfully so ) LOL

The Luck Brothers were under assault from day one about Riverboat Roulette and are better for it. They made needed changes before
G2E.

As for the fairness of any suspension, Mike is the final arbitrator. It's his house.

I feel lucky to be a guest and have my transgression overlooked. I mean, why some people take me serious, I have no idea !

I agree that certain subjects should be posted on the DT site rather than here. It's what the Wizard wants and has made known more than a few times. The problem is that very few wish to join.

Next week will be the one year anniversary of the launch of DT. There are now 134 members with 88 of them active. The majority of them joined on October 24th of last year. Only 12 new members were signed for all of 2013 so far.

I could join to show my support for the Wizard but I have no doubt that I would be another inactive member and I wonder if that would be worse than not joining at all. Thoughts?

Quote: teddys

"Doxing" (going to outside sources and digging up info on forum members including their work, dating, interests, etc.) is an unpleasant practice and should be considered unseemly on a forum of this caliber.

Much better to just be sheep and believe everything
someone says, like they're on a first name basis with
Donald Trump and they make $1000 a DAY with
a system that everybody knows is useless. Do you
really want me to go down the lonnnnnng list of stuff
this guy said that we're just supposed to sit still for?

Nobody delved into who he was for a long time, not
until the manure pile got so deep we kept having to order
ever larger hip waders. Quit making it sound like this
was a witch hunt. He dug the hole himself and everybody
here knows it.

Guess I have a difference of opinion on doxing. 'Doxing' (from what I've always understood) is finding & releasing personally identifiable information about someone who wishes to remain anonymous. In my particular case, I don't think posting a YouTube video of a (former) member singing qualifies as an example. Doing a simple Google search on somebody isn't doxing either, and I can almost guarantee that there have been people on this forum who have googled my username.

Quote: Beethoven9th

Doing a simple Google search on somebody isn't doxing either, and I can almost guarantee that there have been people here who have googled my username.

People constantly reference me from an identity I have
on another forum, often disparaging me for it. Where
are all the cries of 'FOUL' and 'this isn't right'. Do spare
me the tears for poor Varmenti, they're hypocritical at
best.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I was perceived early on as a bully re: the Mission McNugget Challenge by varmenti

Exactly. Just because someone claims that they are being bullied doesn't mean that they are in fact being bullied. (And for the record, you weren't bullying him AT ALL.)

Hey, white folks have a hard time playing the race card. The VICTIM card is the only one left to them.

POOR ME. BOO HOO

Quote: EvenBob

Do spare me the tears for poor Varmenti, they're hypocritical at
best.

I'm beginning to wonder if the people defending him even read ALL of his posts. I could be wrong, of course, but I have a feeling that some of them didn't. OTOH, I did.

Take the "Mission: Nuggets" thread, for example. He completely disrupted that thread with his offer of a bet and subsequent cancellation. Then he claimed that he'd send the Wizard $1,000 to hold, but of course, he flaked out on that one, too. IIRC, none of his current defenders criticized him for that.