Thread Rating:

Poll

30 votes (83.33%)
3 votes (8.33%)
3 votes (8.33%)

36 members have voted

Mosca
Mosca
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
  • Threads: 181
  • Posts: 3835
September 13th, 2011 at 2:18:47 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


Fine, it is indeed okay to go down that road, play devil's advocate and all that. But I thought EvenBob framed it in a very base manner, with very weak, accusatory, and ignorant arguments, - and simply for the purpose of sometimes being pointlessly inflamatory. My POV. Just not helpful, kind of like a Jerry Logan #2, and I say this with concern.



Oh, no doubt there is some tweaking going on. I ignored that, it's just Bob being Bob. I thought there was some real food for thought in his argument, and I also think that it has been nicely handled by the counter arguments, including some of your own.
NO KILL I
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
September 13th, 2011 at 2:20:53 PM permalink
I work with Mormons in the Gaming industry - a practice that is forbidden to them as a personal outlet. (I don't find it hypocritical: there are male doctors who are gynocologists, and female doctors who are urologists.) In the break room, I'll have a cup of coffee while they drink caffeine-free soda in the break room, and I never felt their personal choice was an issue, as they could care less about my coffee cup. They never imposed their "anti-coffee beliefs" on me, as they never judge me or themselves in the running of a dice game as part of the job. No one ever even noticed or remotely judged people on this stuff.

I don't think priests or monks have an inroad to God as to have the dice roll a certain way while playing. I've seen some very strange wins stave off a foreclosure like an answered prayer from God without it being asked, and others lose their asses while praying during playing. "Ask and Ye Shall Receive" as a prayer during a crap game is likely to be answered by God as just "No, don't you now scared money doesn't win?" most times. Don't ask or expect it, and a jackpot win might side-swipe you out of the blue.

If you pray during gambling, it ain't gambling, just like if you DON'T pray at a Mass, it isn't a Mass for you. IMO.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
September 13th, 2011 at 2:29:42 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Oh, no doubt there is some tweaking going on. I ignored that, it's just Bob being Bob. I thought there was some real food for thought in his argument, and I also think that it has been nicely handled by the counter arguments, including some of your own.


Nothing against the guy, but I occasionally feel there a bit of eye-poking, and less "presentation/development of a cogent argument." Maybe it's just how Bob's style is, "shoot from the hip and lip," and he's not a monster in my opinion. Me, I can rant, but good points and arguments as to why it is or is not are important, not just it being: "Casinos are evil" or "The Casino is your Friend" (our mutual positions) without the "Whys and Hows" of it all.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
kp
kp
Joined: Feb 28, 2011
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 422
September 13th, 2011 at 3:16:35 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

In the break room, I'll have a cup of coffee while they drink caffeine-free soda in the break room, and I never felt their personal choice was an issue, as they could care less about my coffee cup. They never imposed their "anti-coffee beliefs" on me, as they never judge me or themselves in the running of a dice game as part of the job. No one ever even noticed or remotely judged people on this stuff.



Are you Mormon? If not, I don't see why they would care about your personal choices or you would care about theirs.

If you are Mormon, then why are you drinking caffeinated coffee? Doesn't part of being a Mormon require that you avoid caffeinated beverages (the control aspect) and by drinking caffeine you are being a bad Mormon (the judging aspect).

When I say the religions control actions or judge, I'm talking about the religious leaders or doctrines and followers of that religion, not the bystanders or followers of a different religion. The same could be said for the laws and members of any group or society.

But we're getting way off subject.
FinsRule
FinsRule
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
  • Threads: 123
  • Posts: 3782
September 13th, 2011 at 3:31:52 PM permalink
Paigowdan - I think it's more of a sin for him NOT to count. I'm assuming that at least 10% of his winnings would go back to the Church. A casino won't donate that much to charity. Therefore, since card counting is legal and not against any rules I'm aware of, I think he has a moral responsibility to count so that he will win money and benefit more people.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
September 13th, 2011 at 4:02:47 PM permalink
Quote: kp

Are you Mormon? If not, I don't see why they would care about your personal choices or you would care about theirs.


We don't - that's the point. So it certainly shouldn't be an issue with FrGamble.

As for me, No, I'm of Jewish and Protestant origins (Icelandic mother), from New York originally, and not religious, certainly not Mormon. I drink coffee, I gamble, etc.
I work with some Mormons, and they seem very fine, very well-adjusted, and very nice, functional people.
I don't believe in their doctorines (Jesus visited the Americas, the Gold Plates of Moroni scriptures, and that alcohol, gambling, and even coffee is always a bad thing.)
I remark that they work in Gaming, are around booze and coffee and gamblers all the time, and they never seem to have a problem with the environment, or with other people or what other people do, though they abstain from it all themselves as a personal religious choice without interest or Judgement on others - or themselves..

Quote: kp

I'm talking about the religious leaders or doctrines and followers of that religion, not the bystanders or followers of a different religion.


Bystanders of followers of different religions often receive or cause conflict among the main religious group, particularly being a Christian in Muslim lands, a muslim in Western China, a Hindu or Sikh in Pakistan, etc.

Some horrible things occur when intolerance or "consciousness" of religious aspects are needlessly brought into the picture, (as is a part of the thread's discussion), and some wonderful tolerance happens when the rejection of "religious applications" occur, like being a religious Mormon running casinos in Nevada, or being a Buddhist monk in some very hedonistic parts of Thailand.

In this regard, if a religious Mormon can run a casino gaming pit as a career - while being mortal sin for him or her to ever personally partake - where it is not allowed, then for Father Gamble to gamble - as a Catholic Priest where moderate gambling and drinking and a good cigar is allowed in his faith, then if it no problem for the Mormon, it should be fine for FrGamble.

What is striking the lack of concern or judgement that religious Mormons embody in this environment - so as long as their faith and practices are steadfastly maintained, then it should be fine for FrGamble.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
September 13th, 2011 at 4:16:08 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

Paigowdan - I think it's more of a sin for him NOT to count.


??!!..wow....
Quote: FinsRule

I'm assuming that at least 10% of his winnings would go back to the Church.


Why? This isn't a church bingo, it's at an external gaming corporation's operation and a priest's discretionary entertainment money, - not a business venture for the Catholic Church. As such, the Casino's house rules should be followed by all, especially by the priest and the casino, to including the backing-off and expulsive of card-counters regardless of religious affiliation. It's bad enough that the Taliban exports Afghan Heroin to fund their "religious charities" (to include terrorism); while not quite as ethically questionable, card-counting casino profits funding Catholic Church charity operations would be at the very least, still ethically qustionable, IMO.
Quote: FinsRule

A casino won't donate that much to charity. Therefore, since card counting is legal and not against any rules I'm aware of, I think he has a moral responsibility to count so that he will win money and benefit more people.


Station Casinos gives to Charity, name the Clark County School District, but avoids religion-affiliated charities.
Card-counting is OPENLY against the casino's house rules, even if it is not an issue for the Metropolitan Police department.
Again, for a Christian Clergyman to violate the ground rules of the casino concerning a gambling game's proper good faith operation would be an ethical question for the Padre.

Edit: any money won in straight game play (no casino rule-breaking) can be spent as anyone sees fit: home improvement, gas money, shopping, whatever. And have fun winning at gambling. But the concept of a clergyman counting cards in violation of a casino's ground rules for charity is weird.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
September 13th, 2011 at 4:46:47 PM permalink
Does that mean in a couple of weeks when I'm in the Golden Nugget, I should be able to get a copy of the house rules for black jack, and it will state I am not allowed to count the cards? Or similar wording?

I'm just curious.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Mosca
Mosca
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
  • Threads: 181
  • Posts: 3835
September 13th, 2011 at 5:40:49 PM permalink
Tithing is not part of Catholic doctrine, not even informally.

I understand, Dan. It comes across differently to me, is all I'll say. Keep in mind, I only read about 5% of everything on the forum, so my summed history might be different from yours.
NO KILL I
kp
kp
Joined: Feb 28, 2011
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 422
September 13th, 2011 at 6:56:00 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

It's bad enough that the Taliban exports Afghan Heroin to fund their "religious charities" (to include terrorism); while not quite as ethically questionable, card-counting casino profits funding Catholic Church charity operations would be at the very least, still ethically qustionable, IMO.


Wow. A card counting priest is on par with the Taliban dealing heroin to fund terrorism. Someone needs to cut back on the kool-aid.

  • Jump to: