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jsantee97
jsantee97
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September 13th, 2011 at 9:16:41 AM permalink
Quote: kp

Isn't judging others and telling them how to live their lives one of the primary foundations of religion?



Depends on how you look at it...or your "beliefs" if you will!
heather
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September 13th, 2011 at 9:21:08 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Now if you are asking about moral correctness,



I'm not sure that he is not doing that. He opened the thread with a quote from the Catechism that said that gambling is okay under normal circumstances. So, the Catechism says its usually okay and the Bible doesn't mention the subject. Thus no scriptural problem. I thought that FrGamble was mainly concerned about what his parishioners would think.

I don't know a lot about Catholic clergy, but don't they all take a vow of poverty? Isn't their housing provided by the church? How much to they get paid, and is the payment expected to cover essentials, entertainment, or both? And, lastly, do their paychecks originate in their own church's collection baskets, or from the Nazi and Mesoamerican gold reserves in the Vatican?
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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September 13th, 2011 at 9:50:36 AM permalink
I don't have a problem with you spending your own wage on gambling as entertainment. However, a few thoughts:

-- Ownership: Nothing is yours. It all belongs to God, who graciously lets you manage his assets. On the other hand, a worker is worthy of his wage, and all things are lawful..

-- Accountability: How will you know if you have pushed it too close to the "line" between entertainment and vice? I think you should have an open book with at least one, but if possible more, trusted friend(s) regarding your gambling budget and spending.

-- Advantage Play: While I agree with Paigowdan on many things, I'll split with him on this one. You are charged to be shrewed as a serpent in this area. Use every gift the good Lord has given you to count, and count well. It is good stewardship. However, this type of play means hours of study and practice, as well as time spent grinding through hours of mixed shoes waiting for an actionable advantage. Does your allocation of time toward this hobby allow it?

-- The Weaker Brother: While it may be allowed, will your participation cause a weaker brother to stumble? You are held to a higher standard than your flock, but I think you can edify them by not hiding nor disguising your gaming pursuits. Your extra abundance of accountability and caution in this area can be a great example of having fun in moderation.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Paigowdan
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September 13th, 2011 at 10:28:39 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

-- Advantage Play: While I agree with Paigowdan on many things, I'll split with him on this one. You are charged to be shrewed as a serpent in this area. Use every gift the good Lord has given you to count, and count well. It is good stewardship. However, this type of play means hours of study and practice, as well as time spent grinding through hours of mixed shoes waiting for an actionable advantage. Does your allocation of time toward this hobby allow it?


Okay, okay....if FrGamble sees Blackjack card counting as okay, with no ethical pastoral or personal issue, then fine. WTH. Sometimes my own high horse growls at me, as he's reading this board, too. But if FrG marks/daubs cards, or hole cards, or pinches and caps bets, etc. (which are mortal gambling sins that cross the line,) I'll personally track down and fax the incident report to his Bishop and the Vatican. We all have to live by NGCB standards somewhere.
Edit: would Jesus count? Should one who enters "persona Christi" do so? Good Question for FrG.

Quote: Ayecarumba

-- The Weaker Brother: While it may be allowed, will your participation cause a weaker brother to stumble? You are held to a higher standard than your flock, but I think you can edify them by not hiding nor disguising your gaming pursuits. Your extra abundance of accountability and caution in this area can be a great example of having fun in moderation.


Good! Absolutely. Opus Dei might shudder, a little different that Dorothy Day. Puritanism should not be a Catholic thing, IMO.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
FleaStiff
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September 13th, 2011 at 11:42:10 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

2. Don't wear the collar at the tables: civilian clothes.

Well, it is a vacation and a festive occasion, but I see nothing wrong with wearing a clerical collar at the time. Depends if you would wear it to a party or not. Not much difference between "You Going Out, Honey" and "You Going Out, Padre".
Mosca
Mosca
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September 13th, 2011 at 11:47:35 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

How so?
EB sounds pretty intolerant and "off-the-mark" about casinos and casino gambling to me, perhaps to many of us, and at a gamblers' forum of all places.
I am pro-gambling. I am anti-cheating, anti-breaking the house rules, and anti-shot takers, which are actually anti-gambling acts.
A lot of us think EB's an absolute feather weight on all things gaming, to avoid using other adjectives and abverbs that may be inflamatory.



I'm not saying I agree with him; I made my observations in one of the very first answers. I'm saying that he's making a very good counter argument. If there is good counter argument to be made, within the parameters and limits that FrGamble has accepted for his life, EvenBob has framed it very pointedly. It's OK for him to go down that road. It's also OK to disagree, and say why, as many have done to good effect.
NO KILL I
kp
kp
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September 13th, 2011 at 11:48:55 AM permalink
Isn't judging others and telling them how to live their lives one of the primary foundations of religion?

Quote: Paigowdan

Not in Buddhism (where letting others "live and let live" without religious judgement is extremely Buddhist),


I like the sound of this Buddhism.

Quote: Paigowdan

not in so-called Christiandom where we have separation of church and state, and not in any religion that doesn't try to impose honor killings on family members or Sharia law and their courts and goon squads on the populace.


Doesn't Christiandom say that if you sin that you will go to hell, and then define the sins?
This a telling you how to live, and then pronouncing judgment if you break their rules.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 13th, 2011 at 1:20:55 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

I'm not saying I agree with him; I made my observations in one of the very first answers. I'm saying that he's making a very good counter argument. If there is good counter argument to be made, within the parameters and limits that FrGamble has accepted for his life, EvenBob has framed it very pointedly. It's OK for him to go down that road. It's also OK to disagree, and say why, as many have done to good effect.


Fine, it is indeed okay to go down that road, play devil's advocate and all that. But I thought EvenBob framed it in a very base manner, with very weak, accusatory, and ignorant arguments, - and simply for the purpose of sometimes being pointlessly inflamatory. My POV. Just not helpful, kind of like a Jerry Logan #2, and I say this with concern.
Comments like "To squander both [percious time and money] in a casino seems unproductive in the extreme, and beneath someone who others in the Church look to for guidance. " Squander? One can argue that his comments are quite ignorant and biased:
One can also argue that expensive shows, fancy dinners, and even having fun at a go-cart park are utter "squandering" or wasteful of money and not providing of personal growth when simply looking for entertainment - as one has an absolute zero chance of "winning back" the purchase price if the experience was not fun or providing of "action," or providing of "spititual growth."
Quite simply, EvenBob is openly condescending and ridiculing of gambling and the gaming industry as never a sort of a legitimate pasttime or recreation, which is the opposite of what we gamblers and we people in the gaming industry embody without any salient arguments from him...so who exactly is he to say otherwise? And at a Gambler's forum filled with gamblers, gaming industry workers, and support personal no less. One can argue that EvenBob is just shamelessly "baiting" a captive audience a la Jerry Logan, which is an abuse of a dedicated forum. As pointed out by Finsrule, one can also point out religion as a "crock industry of superstition of wars, judgemental oppression, and the imposition of discrimination and abuse" to non-believers or even believers of other faiths (aka "we are all infidels if you do not believe as I happen to do!") - if one wanted to do this also, - quite easily in fact! I judge neither a casino dealer nor a priest without knowing his actions, as most well-balanced people carry out, too.

Now, his view of Gaming as a valid career choice - whether for dealers, executives, and support personal like lawyers and mathematicians, EvenBob said:
"OK, tell me how flushing your money down the toilet by giving it to the casino is productive. Tell me how it advances careers, or gives you a higher standing in
the community."

One can argue that spending for movies is just flushing cash down the toilet, as all you do is sit in a seat in a darken house and just watch images flicker on a screen, some of which can be violent, anti-social, racist, hostile, and what you, shamelessly manipulating your emotions from a reel of plastic that a light shines through. Talk about an opportunity for mind control and brain-washing that people pay for! This can be claimed for Hollywood and the film industry, and has indeed. And that gaming and casinos provides for useless and blood-sucking careers that do not advance anything or anyone, and provides no useful social utility.

EvenBob selects his targets to hack, and he had come here. Believe me, I have sometimes found the casino table games environment a very social recreational milieu among players who operate on a high level (such as FrGamble), as well as an opportunity to provide need socialization or even home-training life lessons to needy shot takers and cheats at the hands of "fair but no bullshit" pit crews and security personal explaining the facts of adult life, - and everything in-between. "You can learn MORE of a person's true character in a hour of play than in a lifetime of conversation," and this is a quote from the great and ancient philosopher Plato.

As for KP's quip that "Doesn't Christiandom say that if you sin that you will go to hell, and then define the sins?
This a telling you how to live, and then pronouncing judgment if you break their rules."
No, that's what KP himself offered here, quite different. Some people feel that religious or spiritual teachings simply explain that "How you live and where you go in this life and the next is what you can choose," - is a very reasonable alternative view and approach within the same religion discussed. I have never had a Mormon or Jehova's witness put a machete to my neck and say, "You infidel, I will kill you if you do not submit to my beliefs." They've said, "Here's some religious literature you might be interested in; read it if you want, and if you have any questions, we're here for you with this way of life, if it's for you." I always said, "no, thanks anyway."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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September 13th, 2011 at 1:48:59 PM permalink
Sorry to arrive late. I, of course, approve of a priest, or anybody, gambling. Moderation is the key. Nobody has ever produced one verse in the bible specifically addressing the morality of gambling to me. Given the lack of direction, I assume that god leaves the decision up to us. I might also add that the Catholic church, as well as others, offer church bingo.

Does anyone ever confess gambling in confession? If so, what is the penance/response?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
kp
kp
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September 13th, 2011 at 1:59:36 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

As for KP's quip that "Doesn't Christiandom say that if you sin that you will go to hell, and then define the sins?
This a telling you how to live, and then pronouncing judgment if you break their rules."
No, that's what KP himself offered here, quite different.



I will admit that I am very ignorant of religious doctrines, and especially the differences between one religion and another. It has been my uneducated belief that (some) religions try to dictate how their flock should behave. Recent discussions here have served to reinforce that belief when I read things about Mormons and caffeine, but that's what I get for reading things off the internet. I even saw a movie once where some religious guy went out to the desert (not Vegas), talked to a bush (not George (senior or junior)), and came back with a set of rules for the people to follow. But, again, that was just Hollywood, and not something based upon theological studies.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand, on a related note, somewhat facetious but also a bit serious, if a priest does go gambling in a casino, should he be praying for a hard 8, or an ace, or a 27 black, or other winning twist of fate? If you have an inside track with God, should you be asking Him for help on something as frivolous as the outcome of a wager?

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