Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
• Posts: 15243
November 14th, 2021 at 8:43:42 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Another DIRTY RULE?

I just read the rules again. I see "All Payouts with a multiplier are included in the multiplier. For example, if you have a BlackJack and a multiplier, then only the multiplier will be applied."

To me, that means Blackjack is only being paid 1:1 x the multiplier.That's damned mean if it's true.
So, having wagered \$1 (+\$1 fee) with a multiplier of 2x coming forward from the previous round, you would only get \$1 x 2 + \$1 stake =\$3. Thats just 50c 'benefit' from the multiplier that cost you a \$1 fee to buy.

I do hope someone figures an exploit to whup this evil game!

I'm pretty sure the Base Game win and Lightning Win are accounted for separately.

Oh, no, never mind...I think you might be right...or maybe I am. I don't know. I always took it as they are accounted for totally separately.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
ChesterDog
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
• Posts: 997
November 14th, 2021 at 9:49:47 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Another DIRTY RULE?

I just read the rules again. I see "All Payouts with a multiplier are included in the multiplier. For example, if you have a BlackJack and a multiplier, then only the multiplier will be applied."

To me, that means Blackjack is only being paid 1:1 x the multiplier.That's damned mean if it's true.
So, having wagered \$1 (+\$1 fee) with a multiplier of 2x coming forward from the previous round, you would only get \$1 x 2 + \$1 stake =\$3. Thats just 50c 'benefit' from the multiplier that cost you a \$1 fee to buy.

I do hope someone figures an exploit to whup this evil game!

Thanks for finding that additional rule!

The game's designers should have allowed blackjacks to pay 1.5 times the multiplier. To compensate for that, they would just have to have lower average multipliers, which we would hardly notice.

By the way, don't their rules say that blackjack pays 3:2? If so, when you don't have a multiplier, you probably get 3:2.

Regarding how badly you are losing at the game--CrystalMath pointed out that the players should do a lot more doubling-down and splitting: even doubling stiff hands should be considered.

Even a 2x multiplier makes a big difference in the doubling and splitting strategies. And those strategies are easy to find for each multiplier (if future multipliers are ignored.)
OnceDear
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
• Posts: 6112
Thanks for this post from:
November 14th, 2021 at 10:19:33 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Quote: OnceDear

Another DIRTY RULE?

I just read the rules again. I see "All Payouts with a multiplier are included in the multiplier. For example, if you have a BlackJack and a multiplier, then only the multiplier will be applied."

I'm pretty sure the Base Game win and Lightning Win are accounted for separately.

Oh, no, never mind...I think you might be right...or maybe I am. I don't know. I always took it as they are accounted for totally separately.

I'm going to take one for the team. Play a hundred hands or less to see how it really pays.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
• Posts: 23725
November 14th, 2021 at 11:35:12 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Another DIRTY RULE?

I just read the rules again. I see "All Payouts with a multiplier are included in the multiplier. For example, if you have a BlackJack and a multiplier, then only the multiplier will be applied."

To me, that means Blackjack is only being paid 1:1 x the multiplier.That's damned mean if it's true.
So, having wagered \$1 (+\$1 fee) with a multiplier of 2x coming forward from the previous round, you would only get \$1 x 2 + \$1 stake =\$3. Thats just 50c 'benefit' from the multiplier that cost you a \$1 fee to buy.

I do hope someone figures an exploit to whup this evil game!

I'll be the first to say the rules could be written better. In the case of your sentence, I think what it means is only the winnings get multiplied, not the original wager.

In your example, if the player would win (before deducting the Lightning fee) \$1*1.5*2= \$3. After the fee, the net win is \$2. If someone has evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears.

Quote: OnceDear

No, I didn't collect data. I could record a video in spectator mode if it helps.

It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
OnceDear
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
• Posts: 6112
Thanks for this post from:
November 14th, 2021 at 1:00:49 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: OnceDear

Another DIRTY RULE?

I just read the rules again. I see "All Payouts with a multiplier are included in the multiplier. For example, if you have a BlackJack and a multiplier, then only the multiplier will be applied."

To me, that means Blackjack is only being paid 1:1 x the multiplier.That's damned mean if it's true.
So, having wagered \$1 (+\$1 fee) with a multiplier of 2x coming forward from the previous round, you would only get \$1 x 2 + \$1 stake =\$3. Thats just 50c 'benefit' from the multiplier that cost you a \$1 fee to buy.

I do hope someone figures an exploit to whup this evil game!

I'll be the first to say the rules could be written better. In the case of your sentence, I think what it means is only the winnings get multiplied, not the original wager.

In your example, if the player would win (before deducting the Lightning fee) \$1*1.5*2= \$3. After the fee, the net win is \$2. If someone has evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears.

Quote: OnceDear

No, I didn't collect data. I could record a video in spectator mode if it helps.

I just gave it some time and money. Played with a strategy of 'Aspire to get a big multiplier* and if I had a big multiplier active, get as much money down as possible.**

So, since 20 and 21 gave bigger multipliers than 4-17, I'd hit 4-17. I'd also split anything and everything and double soft hands. One time I had a pair of fives against a six and I split them. because my multiplier was 12, it was one of my best hands.
I managed to get ahead briefly, but eventually I'd lost £50 and quit.
I never did get a blackjack to see what it paid.
Will do a video cap tomorrow, IF I can do so without revealing personal info to the forum.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 3441
November 14th, 2021 at 3:25:11 PM permalink
I usually jump into discussions on new games and try to beat everyone to the basic strategy. However, I've stayed away from this one because of the initial confusion about the rules and the lack of information about the multipliers.

I think (or hope) we have the rules nailed down - but we definitely need more data on the multipliers. I don't trust the information from the 19 hands on the marketing video - it may not be a sincere sample, i.e., it may be a biased selection of multipliers to make the game look attractive.

Its pretty clear that their will be basic strategy changes for

a) when you have no active multiplier (flip close call stand vs hit decisions and flip close call double vs hit to increase chances of getting higher multipliers in ensuing hands )
b) when you have active multipliers (winning has a bigger payoff but pushing does not) and will be a function of the size of the multiplier (i.e., minimum multiplier needed to flip a decision)

but both sets of decisions depend upon the average multiplier expectation as a function of the 'rank" of your winning hand.

I think I can work up a basic strategy fairly quickly - but I want better data on multipliers before I put in the work.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
ssho88
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
• Posts: 583
November 14th, 2021 at 5:10:32 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Its pretty clear that their will be basic strategy changes for

a) when you have no active multiplier (flip close call stand vs hit decisions and flip close call double vs hit to increase chances of getting higher multipliers in ensuing hands )
b) when you have active multipliers (winning has a bigger payoff but pushing does not) and will be a function of the size of the multiplier (i.e., minimum multiplier needed to flip a decision)

Totally agree. I guess the current strategy should be something like this :-

Current strategy = f (current total, current multiplier, next hand average multiplier).

However, next hand average multiplier = f(current total, win rate of each winning point), to simplify it further, we may use a fix value for next hand multiplier = 2.609(calculated by WIZARD.) or a pre-determined fixed value.

Instead of normal true count index table, we may come out with a "multiplier index" table. LOL
Joined: Dec 4, 2015
• Posts: 152
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November 15th, 2021 at 7:14:44 AM permalink
The basic strategy chart (probably misleading) published here
digging for the patent ... if any?
https://www.livecasinocomparer.com/live-casino-software/evolution-live-casino-software/evolution-live-blackjack/lightning-blackjack/

I’d rather have to be a lucky player than good one.
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
• Posts: 23725
November 15th, 2021 at 7:43:59 AM permalink
It's very misleading! I wish I had a contact at Live Casino Comparer, because that is a good site, but they are misleading their followers with that basic strategy.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
• Posts: 2510
November 15th, 2021 at 2:03:50 PM permalink
The sole purpose of this post is to say it looks like it might be worth splitting when you have a multiplier coming in. I've not checked the results (except the no effect strategy matches regular BJ).

I created a little program that takes into account a multiplied pay-out for winning but not for winning any bonus for the next hand. I think, perhaps falsely, that I assumed that when doubling both the parts are paid the multiple so I might need to revisit that, but the split ignored the effect of knowing the other hand or allowing subsequent doubling.
NOTE: This ignores the effect of winning and getting a multiplier for the next hand.

Ace : D 11-10; d s18; Split A234 6789
Two : D 12-8; d s20-s13; Split A23 6789X
Three: D 12-7 then as above
Four: D 12-6 then as above
Five: D 12-5 then as above
Six: as five
Seven: D 13-8; d s19-s13; Split A234 6789X
Eight: D 11-9: d s18-s14; Split A234 6789
Nine: D 11-9; d s18-s16; as above
Ten: D 11-10; d s18; Split A23 789