CrystalMath
CrystalMath
Joined: May 10, 2011
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 1907
November 9th, 2021 at 10:06:05 AM permalink
Quote: ssho88


link to original post



The game rules is 8D, S17, NoDAS, SPL1, PEEK, DOA2, NoSurr.

How do you get the Added EV for Multiplier Next Hand, 0.4, 0.4, 1.0, 1.5, 2.2, 3.0 ?

When multiplier is 2X, my estimated additional EV is 0.51571 as shown below. Where did I go wrong? How do you get 0.4 ?


link to original post



Mine was a very quick estimate. I do need to point out that the blackjack on the next hand will pay 2, not 3. On the base hand, blackjack pays 1.5, but on a multiplier hand, it pays the multiplier.

Also, you will get less EV out of a lower multiplier hand because you will be more likely to aim for higher multipliers at the risk of busting more often. On a high multiplier hand, you'll get a higher EV because of doubles and splits.
I heart Crystal Math.
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 2645
November 9th, 2021 at 10:31:48 AM permalink
So anybody gonna run a progression on a winning streak, like $10 + $10, $15 + $15, $20 + $20, $30 + $30, $40 + $40, $50 + $50, $75 + $75, $100 + $100?
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1403
  • Posts: 23725
Thanks for this post from:
charliepatrick
November 9th, 2021 at 5:42:53 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

As I haven't played the game I don't know whether if you have an incoming multiplier and then double, whether the doubled wager is paid x1 or the multiplier (perhaps the rule if you increase your bet only the original bet is multiplied could apply). If the doubled value is paid the multiplier then you will be doubling more often, e.g. some stiff hands; I haven't looked but under some circumstances you might just double almost anything.



I think only the original wager gets multiplied if you double. The doubled portion of the bet would pay even money.

Quote:

Similarly if you split there was a comment that it only paid out on the best hand, or was this for the multiplier that carried forward. Again you might just split everything (except 5s and 10s) and if you already had 20 on the first hand might be less aggressive on the second (since only getting 21 is of any benefit).
link to original post



I'd like to get the splitting rules confirmed too.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1403
  • Posts: 23725
November 10th, 2021 at 7:26:29 AM permalink
Another thread was created about Lightning Blackjack. Several posts were made before I closed it. Let me reply to one of them.

Quote: CrystalMath

Double down pays 2x multiplier. Splits pay multiplier on each hand.
link to original post



I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you quote anything as evidence? Live Casino Comparer says, "Only the value of the Lightning Fee is multiplied." I interpret that to mean that if you double, then only the original wager is subject to the multiplier and the double portion pays the normal even money. Of course, I could be reading it wrong or that site may be wrong. Just looking for something more concrete to base my rules on when I write about the game, which will be soon.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
  • Threads: 34
  • Posts: 2510
November 10th, 2021 at 7:41:07 AM permalink
I've just sent them this e-mail (via this pagehttps://www.evolution.com/our-games/lightning-blackjack ), before noticing the other thread is now closed as a duplicate. It would be great to have a clear understanding on (d) and (e).
Quote: email

There has been some discussion about your game on wizardofvegas forum and, as it's fun, I've had a quick look at it; some of the decisions are likely to be non-obvious. However there seems to be some discussion over the exact rules. Please forgive me or could I ask whether you either have a game card or could clarify some of the questions being raised.

Base assumptions
For analysis purposes the player makes two equal bets and will stick to those for subsequent hands (while they don't have to, that seems the optimal strategy).
The game is based on US rules "8D, S17, NoDAS, SPL1, PEEK, DOA2, NoSurr." and when doubling or splitting there is no additional "Ante" wager required.

Multiplier assumptions
(a) The multiplier passed forward to the next hand is solely based on the higher of the two hand values if the hand has been split.
(b) There have been estimates on the average value of the multipliers (I imagine this is commercially sensitive so would not expect you to comment on that!)
(c) A winning blackjack receives the multiplier rather than 6/4.

Questions The uncertainty is on multiplied hands which split or double.
(d) Where the original hand was a pair and has been split (and hence cannot be doubled) the multiplier applies to both hands, or is it just the first one?
(e) Where the original two-card hand was doubled it is not clear whether the multiplier applies to the original wager or includes the double part (e.g. 7x, $5 doubled would payout $35+$5 or $35+$35).

Clearly the first hand ever played cannot "return" 99.56% since the "Ante" wager is not returned and can only take effect when the following hand is played; however any multiplier earned will have a financial value, so this can be calculated and added for EV purposes.

Many thanks

Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1403
  • Posts: 23725
November 10th, 2021 at 7:58:49 AM permalink
To add to the confusion about the rules, Live Casino Comparer states both:

1. "If you lose, the Lightning Fee and the main bet are lost."
2. "In the case of a push or insurance, the player gets his main bet back but loses the Lightning Fee."

This seems to imply, by omission, that if the player has a multiplier from the previous hand and wins, then he gets the Lightning Fee back.

After a careful watching of Neil's video, this does not happen.

As evidence, note at the 12:07 point he just won a hand and has a balance of $376.14 (forgive me for using the dollar sign, he was betting in UK pounds) and earned a 4x multiplier. He then bets $5 the next hand. You can see his balance drop by $10 after the bet is made to $366.14 ($5 for the main wager and $5 for the Lightning Fee).

He wins that second hand. After being paid, his net win is $15. He win 4*$5 = $20 for beating the dealer, but $5 is deducted for the Lightning Fee. Neil explains it at the 14:23 point.

To address splitting, at the 19:19 point Neil splits sixes and you can see a 3x multiplier is applied to both hands. Unfortunately, he draws to a 16 on both and then loses, so that doesn't shed any light on the question of what happens if you win on two different totals.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
  • Threads: 133
  • Posts: 15243
November 10th, 2021 at 8:39:11 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard



To address splitting, at the 19:19 point Neil splits sixes and you can see a 3x multiplier is applied to both hands. Unfortunately, he draws to a 16 on both and then loses, so that doesn't shed any light on the question of what happens if you win on two different totals.
link to original post



(Quote clipped, relevance)

You would be awarded the Lighting Fee for the previous hand (if any) multiplied by the multiplier once. As far as the multiplier for the following hand is concerned, it would be based on the higher of the two hand totals.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1403
  • Posts: 23725
November 10th, 2021 at 9:19:53 AM permalink
I have started a new page on Lightning Blackjack. So far, it has an introduction and rules only.

I welcome any corrections.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Glunn11
Glunn11
Joined: Aug 17, 2010
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 7
November 10th, 2021 at 9:22:29 AM permalink
I'd throw in the drinks! 😉

Thanks everyone for your contributions so far, and sorry Wiz for not realizing this thread already existed.

My luck on this game was so atrocious that I've never even seen a payout with an active multiplier. But I'll give it another go with far lower stakes later.

I did want to make sure the thread is aware of Evolution's peculiar peek policy, which I confirmed this game uses (at least the dealer confirmed in chat). They peek with A showing, but not with face/10 showing.
Glunn11
Glunn11
Joined: Aug 17, 2010
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 7
November 10th, 2021 at 9:25:59 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I have started a new page on Lightning Blackjack. So far, it has an introduction and rules only.

I welcome any corrections.



Thanks for putting this together, Wiz. I'll try to confirm the double payouts later.

I also saw in the documentation the claim that the maximum multiplier is actually 25x. I haven't seen it myself but I'll holler if I run into it. I can contribute to your multiplier samples.

  • Jump to: