AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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March 26th, 2010 at 1:14:16 PM permalink
Quote: konceptum

I asked a dealer one time if they get docked pay or in a lot of trouble for doing a mispayment, and the dealer basically just said that it gets mentioned to them, or they get shown on the tapes, or something like that. For the small amounts I'm playing, I doubt it's a worrisome issue for the casino. I figure, as long as the dealer isn't going to get fired for overpaying or mispaying me a few bucks, then I'm not going to worry about it too much.



I'll report back on this after dealer school, but lets look at numbers using BJ as an example.

400 minutes of dealing time on a regular shift, 60 hands per hour, 6 spots per table.

6.6 hours, 60 hands per hour, 6 spots = 2,376 total hands dealt.

Lets normalize that since that is both peak and ideal. 70% of 2,376 = 1,663 hands dealt per shift. Round down to 1600 for simplification.

1% error rate is 16 mispays per day. .1% error rate is 2 mispays per day.

If the dealer is making 16 mistakes per day I'm confident they might be shown the door or "encouraged" to apply in a different department. At 2 per day my guess is the Pit Boss, Shift Boss, or whoever will let them know if it is a minor amount and truely an accident. Or move the dealer down in minimums.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
konceptum
konceptum
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March 26th, 2010 at 1:17:34 PM permalink
Ah yes, staying on topic and asking dealers. Here's a couple of questions I've had.

1) Is it considered impolite to ask the dealer if their tips are pooled or individual? I have asked this on numerous occasions until I get the feel for how a particular casino operates. The reason I ask is that it makes a difference in the way that I tip for the dealers. I've gotten strange looks for asking, but I just wonder if you would be offended that I even ask the question.

2) Different casinos have different (and in my opinion odd) rules regarding dealer tips. Playing three-card poker at one casino, I was told that I could not make a bet for the dealer on the bonus. The reason: I might get a straight flush and the dealer would get paid 40-1 along with me. My response: so? That's why I'm making the best. I get lucky, the dealer gets lucky, we all win. I've had other casinos tell me that making a two-way parlay hard-six bet in craps was not allowed, because the dealers are not allowed to parlay their wins. In both of those circumstances, I was told that I could just as easily make the best for myself, and then if it does hit, I give half the winning to the dealers as their tip. Personally, it sounds like the same thing to me, but I don't even begin to try and figure out why the casinos make up their rules.

OK, long introduction for the actual question: If I'm in a casino with rules like this, and let's say I would normally bet $5 on the bonus bet (in three-card poker) and $5 for the dealer. I'm told I can't do this, so I put the $10 on my bonus-bet, and tell the dealer, I'll split it with you if it hits. I'm not sure exactly how to phrase my question, but I guess, do you believe it when a player tells you this? I guess what I'm wondering is, should I just not say anything at all, and if it hits, just give half the money to the dealer? Or is it better to say, "If this hits, we'll split it." I can see dealers not really caring if a player says this, because I'm sure they've had players say this and not actually split the money with them. So I guess I just wonder if you want to hear this, or you'd rather just be surprised when the tip gets pushed toward you.
Doc
Doc
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March 26th, 2010 at 1:19:00 PM permalink
Most of the time at craps, the dealers can calculate the correct payouts for the table faster than I can figure my own. I致e had them convert a made place bet and its payout to odds for my come bet so fast that it made my head spin. Sometimes I question things, but it is usually that things were done correctly, and I just couldn稚 keep up.

Two exceptions I recall. A couple of years ago I was paid for a hard 10 when the roll wasn稚 even a 10 at all. I pointed that one out and returned the money. I remember that event because it bothered me that I had slowed down the game when there was a lot more money on the table than what I was playing. I wondered whether I should have just let it go.

Then last weekend I was at a table where a young woman at the base position was obviously new. A group of women playing at my end of the table were making it unnecessarily difficult for this dealer by simultaneously throwing out multiple new bets each roll, even before she had time to pay out the old ones. She had some difficulty, and the box man was trying to keep control of the situation. One roll I hit on a $12 place bet on the 6 and was paid. Before sending the dice out again, the box man had the dealer give me $2. He said she had only paid me $12, and I had not even noticed.

I figure if the house is watching closely enough and is willing to correct errors to protect me, I should extend the same courtesy and report overpayments. In any case, I am not betting heavy enough that errors either way are really hurting anyone.
konceptum
konceptum
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March 26th, 2010 at 1:22:37 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

If the dealer is making 16 mistakes per day I'm confident they might be shown the door or "encouraged" to apply in a different department.



I'd have to agree. If a dealer is making that many mistakes per day, every day, then they probably should be shown the door. I probably don't gamble as much as the rest of you do, but in all my gambling experience, I can think of 3, maybe 4, times that a mispayment was made toward me.

I honestly think that for the most part, most dealers are good at their job, and don't have any problems or issues. (I have a bit of respect for them, because I don't think their job is particularly easy, and I don't think the pay is particularly high.) So, if a casino were willing to overlook a simple mistake that happens once in a while, with maybe just a call into the office to mention, hey by the way, you paid this wrong, I think that's probably ok.

I know if one of my movers broke 16 things in a day, they would have been fired. Further, they would have been sent home well before they got to break 16 things. It's true that people can have off days, and I suppose if the cameras were to notice a particular dealer having a bit of problems on a day (provided that dealer was not a consistent source of problems), my hope is that they would just tell the dealer to call it a day and come back fresh tomorrow. Granted, things might not work out so rosey in real life, but I can always hope. :)
konceptum
konceptum
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March 26th, 2010 at 1:35:58 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

I figure if the house is watching closely enough and is willing to correct errors to protect me, I should extend the same courtesy and report overpayments.



I'll have to admit, I never thought of it that way before. However, at the same time, I think only in craps have I noticed the box or stick man noticing an underpayment or nonpayment. I don't think I've ever noticed the same thing happen at a table game. Various other situations can occur, but not that.

One time, playing three-card poker, I had hit a few bonus hands in a row. I was playing $5 on the pair-plus bet. The dealer told me that I should be paying more there, since I keep hitting bonus hands. I told her that if I played more, I would certainly not get a bonus hand, as that's how you ruin your luck. (Yes, I subscribe to the Gambler's Fallacy Newsletter, and read it religiously. :P) The next hand, of course, was a bonus hand. She mentioned again that I should be playing more, and so I put out $10 on the pair-plus and said, "If it loses, I'm blaming you." With a grin. (Obviously, I never blame dealers for anything some pseudo-random machine deals out.) Sure enough, no bonus, and I lost. The dealer collected the bet, and then returned it to me saying, "Sorry about that." I said, "No, no, no. Take the money, I lost, no big deal." I pushed the $10 back to her, and put another $5 out on the pair-plus bet. She said, "No, it was my fault, take it." and pushed the $10 back to me. I wasn't really sure what to do in this situation, so I put the $10 as a dealer bet for her. (Unfortunately, it did not hit.) Question for the dealers: can dealers do this? I was really afraid she'd get in trouble, and it was really obvious what was going on. Even the cameras would have no trouble seeing what she had done. I was really worried for her on it.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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March 26th, 2010 at 1:39:17 PM permalink
Quote: konceptum

Ah yes, staying on topic and asking dealers. Here's a couple of questions I've had.

1) Is it considered impolite to ask the dealer if their tips are pooled or individual? I have asked this on numerous occasions until I get the feel for how a particular casino operates. The reason I ask is that it makes a difference in the way that I tip for the dealers. I've gotten strange looks for asking, but I just wonder if you would be offended that I even ask the question.



I haven't become a dealer yet, but doubt it would bother me. There are all kinds of different people, though. My take would be the person knows enough to ask so why not tell them. Some players would not even think to tip so I'd be glad an "asker" is a tipper.



Quote:

2) Different casinos have different (and in my opinion odd) rules regarding dealer tips. Playing three-card poker at one casino, I was told that I could not make a bet for the dealer on the bonus. The reason: I might get a straight flush and the dealer would get paid 40-1 along with me. My response: so? That's why I'm making the best. I get lucky, the dealer gets lucky, we all win. I've had other casinos tell me that making a two-way parlay hard-six bet in craps was not allowed, because the dealers are not allowed to parlay their wins. In both of those circumstances, I was told that I could just as easily make the best for myself, and then if it does hit, I give half the winning to the dealers as their tip. Personally, it sounds like the same thing to me, but I don't even begin to try and figure out why the casinos make up their rules.



I can only guess they don't want even the appearance the dealer could collude with you. This is also for the protection of the dealer. Say the straight flush hits but from the eye it looks like the delaer cheated, even if he didn't. There would be motive and more for the dealer to prove. No one will take chances on their job for $20, but for hundreds or thousands they might if there is a casino down the street.


Quote:

OK, long introduction for the actual question: If I'm in a casino with rules like this, and let's say I would normally bet $5 on the bonus bet (in three-card poker) and $5 for the dealer. I'm told I can't do this, so I put the $10 on my bonus-bet, and tell the dealer, I'll split it with you if it hits. I'm not sure exactly how to phrase my question, but I guess, do you believe it when a player tells you this? I guess what I'm wondering is, should I just not say anything at all, and if it hits, just give half the money to the dealer? Or is it better to say, "If this hits, we'll split it." I can see dealers not really caring if a player says this, because I'm sure they've had players say this and not actually split the money with them. So I guess I just wonder if you want to hear this, or you'd rather just be surprised when the tip gets pushed toward you.



I'd rather be suprised. That is just me.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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March 26th, 2010 at 3:50:43 PM permalink
Quote: konceptum

1) Is it considered impolite to ask the dealer if their tips are pooled or individual?

Interesting question in this thread.

Often while playing blackjack I'll put up $1 tip bets.

This one time, I hit BJ, and the dealer took a $2.50 out of the rack to pay himself - but he didn't put the $1 in the rack. Instead he put both, $3.50, in the tip box.

Suddenly, I couldn't do math because it took a few hands of thinking about it to realize that he really did make a mistake. At about the time I figured it out, I again hit BJ with a $1 tip up, and he again put $3.50 in the tip box.

It was right at that time that he had to shuffle, so while shuffling, I told him about his mistake. It took him several moments to realize it what he did.

Although I knew they pool the tips, I asked. He instantly knew where I was going and we both had a good laugh.
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appistappis
appistappis
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March 28th, 2010 at 8:01:04 PM permalink
hi guys, I'm a craps dealer if you have specific questions, I'll be glad to help.
Croupier
Croupier
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March 29th, 2010 at 11:38:27 AM permalink
Quote: Malaru

Two questions

1) Do alot of dealers still use the old hand signals for needs- the old cross fingers to request a tap out/break or pointing to head if you need assistance for something; or I think there was something like a dealer tapping his fingers on the table if he thoughts someone might be cheating.



A couple of interesting questions that I noticed got lost in the thread. In England, as we dont have surveillance as extensive as in Vegas, we have an audible noise we make, called "kissing up", as it sounds like a child kissing noise, to gain the attention of the pitboss/inspector. We then (discreetly) tell the pit boss what we need.


Quote: Malaru

2) Do most roulette tables these days have that second betting cirlce layout .. I think its called announced bets- the like the zero bets and orphans.... or is it rare to find those tables (at least in the US perhaps).



The "Racetrack" as its known, is widespread throughout the UK with most casino's having them. I dont know how regular they are in the US.

For those who dont know, the racetrack is a section on the layout near the dealer, where various Call Bets (so called as you call out what you want the dealer to place) can be made.

These can be "neighbour bets" which cover a number and the 2 numbers either side of it eg Zero Neigbours (on a single 0 wheel) would cover 3, 26, 0, 32, 15. (all straight up) by a various amount. At my casino the minimum for these bets is £25, with £5 on each number. They can be given for any number on the wheel.

The other bets, "section bets", or "French bets" (also single xero wheel) are so called because they cover sections on the wheel and originated in France.

Voison du Zero, or Zero Section, is a 9 piece bet that has 2 pieces (chips) on 0/2/3 street, 1 piece on 4/7 split, 1 piece on 12/15 split, 1 piece on 18/21 split, 1 piece on 19/22, 2 pices on 25/29 corner, and 1 piece on 32/35 split.

Le Tier, (the third) or just Tier, is so called because it covers a third of the wheel. It is a 6 piece bet with 1 piece on each of the following splits: 5/8, 10/11, 13/16, 23/24, 27/30, 33/36.

Les Orphelins, or the Orphans, are so called as they do not belong in the other sections. This is a 5 piece bet with one piece on 1 straight up, 1 piece 6/9 split, 1 piece 14/17 split, 1 piece 17/20 split, and 1 piece 31/34 split.

These bets in my casino also have a £5 per piece minimum, so would cost £45, £30, and £25 respectively.
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biggianthead
biggianthead
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April 12th, 2010 at 6:20:39 AM permalink
Croupier.....as a ex dealer recently promoted to Pit Boss here in Australia I have enjoyed this thread......keep it up!!!

It is interesting the differences between the casinos across the continents.......

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