loafer247
loafer247
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February 23rd, 2017 at 4:50:57 AM permalink
Hi Everyone,

I was hoping for some advice about a Pontoon (5 Card 21) game at my local casino in Kenya.

The Rules are as follows:

- 4 Decks (no cards removed)
- A 2 card 21 pays 2-1
- A 5 card trick pays 3-2, and the trick beats the dealer unless he has a Blackjack or a higher 5-card trick
- Three 7's pays 3-1
- You can buy up to 2 more cards for the same amount as your original stake (e.g. if you have two low starting cards against a dealer 6, you can add to your stake)
- You can surrender
- Dealer stands on Soft 17
- You can split aces, and you get paid 2-1 if you get a 2 card 21 on the split. You can keep drawing cards on the split Aces
- Dealer wins all pushes

I'm convinced that this combination of rules (ignoring any opportunities to card count) gives the player an edge. Would anyone be able to look at the maths on this?
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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February 23rd, 2017 at 7:31:20 AM permalink
see if these two links will give you an answer,

https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/calculator/
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/

and, finally! a local place where Kenyan Princes can go to process their bankrolls!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
loafer247
loafer247
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February 23rd, 2017 at 7:47:00 AM permalink
Thank you - I used the rules variations link and calculated that the house edge is even higher with the rules I have listed although I'm not sure if my calculation is correct.

I don't know if the 'Player may double on any number of cards' accurately captures the rule here where you can keep adding to your bet if you want to draw down a card.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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February 23rd, 2017 at 7:55:39 AM permalink
I would check this link out thoroughly too, where the Wizard says Sydney version has a HE of 0.42%

seems to me the variance would be much higher than with normal BJ. I'd be interested if it was available.

I am short of patience today and not taking the time to try to compare your version -

https://wizardofodds.com/games/pontoon/australian/
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
loafer247
loafer247
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February 23rd, 2017 at 8:02:07 AM permalink
Thanks. The biggest difference in my game is that I get to see the dealer's hole card before making my decisions. So if he has a 2-6, I press my bets and if he has a 7-A I play normal blackjack.

Yes you are right - the variance is higher as you do tend to double / triple a bit more. It's also difficult to decipher what basic strategy should be due to the 5-card Charlie element, e.g. if you have drawn 4 cards which make up a 12 and the dealer has a 6 do your take a 5th card for the 5-card Charlie and guaranteed 3/2 payout or do you stick as in normal BJ.
AceTwo
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bobbartop
March 17th, 2017 at 1:59:40 PM permalink
First the Pontoon Game you describe has nothing to do with Australian Pontoon / Spanish 21 game. That is a completely different game where the main rule variation is No 10s offset by Extra rules benefiting the Player. The EVs of that game are completely different.

The Pontoon game you described is a game that also exists in Eastern Europe.
The main rule Variation is that Dealer wins all Pushes offset by Extra rules benefiting the Player.
These Extra rules that benefit the Player can vary.
I have never seen anything on the internet about strategy or EV of these Pontoons games and As far as I know no BJ Software can deal with these rules.

I analysed such a game of Pontoon a long time ago.
The rules were similar to the ones you decsribed.

- You can buy up to 2 more cards for the same amount as your original stake (e.g. if you have two low starting cards against a dealer 6, you can add to your stake)
I assume this means that you can Double or Triple.
BUT can you hit after you Double or Triple. It makes a Huge difference if youy can hit after you Double or Triple.

If you can hit after you Double or Triple, then I would say that your game has a Positive EV.
The Pontoon game that I analysed did not have all the beneficial rules you mentioned (did not have surrender, 3 7s pay 3:1, and split aces terated as Pontoon) and had an EV of +0,5%. Your game could have an EV of +1% or more.

The Strategy though is quite difficult, different for 2 cards from 3 cards and 4 cards.

COUNTING
And the game is a lot more susceptible to counting with a Specialised Count.
Ev moves around 0,8% per TC as opposed to around 0,5% for normal BJ.
Ace has a lot more value than in BJ and 10 is a neutral card.
gordonm888
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gordonm888
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March 17th, 2017 at 2:58:38 PM permalink
And, um, Yes - with these rules, if you have a 4 card 12 you should hit it against any dealer card.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
loafer247
loafer247
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March 18th, 2017 at 2:01:57 AM permalink
Thank you for your answer. Yes you can hit after you double or triple. I have been playing it for a couple of months now and generally come out on top but it is difficult to come up with a Basic Strategy.
TigerWu
TigerWu
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March 18th, 2017 at 8:11:34 AM permalink
Sounds like those crazy blackjack variants they play in some Asian countries.
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