Early Surrender v 10
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I am from Canada where the Blackjack tables allow you to early surrender v 10 {even if the dealer ultimately ends up with a blackjack}. Basically you are allowed to surrender any hand vs any dealer card except for Ace.
Also there is no hole card dealt but you only lose your original bet when you double or split and the dealer ends up with a BJ.
I am having trouble finding an online calculator that will give me the house edge {assuming perfect basic strategy} for these 6 deck Hit 17 games. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks!!
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/calculator/
In this system the player is allowed to surrender vs any dealer upcard except for Ace........ meaning player is allowed to surrender vs Ten EVEN if the dealer eventually draws an Ace for BJ.
Unfortunately, it doesn't have the early-surrender vs everything but Ace option -- it's either late surrender (after dealer checks for BJ), or early surrender (before dealer checks for BJ, but includes surrender vs Ace) or no surrender at all.
https://www.blackjackinfo.com/blackjack-basic-strategy-engine/?numdecks=6&soft17=h17&dbl=all&das=yes&surr=es&peek=yes
NOTE: The above assumes you can surrender vs Ace.
I already answered his question about the edge. I don't know any online calculator that has ES-10. But it is a standard rule in many jurisdictions internationally. The correct surrender plays with ES-10 are 14 v. T, 15 v. T and 16 v. 9, T. This includes surrendering 7-7 v. T and 8-8 v. T.Quote: RSBlackjackinfo.com has an excellent blackjack strategy generator. Input the rules and it gives you the strategy chart as well as the house edge.
Unfortunately, it doesn't have the early-surrender vs everything but Ace option -- it's either late surrender (after dealer checks for BJ), or early surrender (before dealer checks for BJ, but includes surrender vs Ace) or no surrender at all.
https://www.blackjackinfo.com/blackjack-basic-strategy-engine/?numdecks=6&soft17=h17&dbl=all&das=yes&surr=es&peek=yes
NOTE: The above assumes you can surrender vs Ace.
Quote: umbrellamanHopefully the Wizard will read this and reply.
Umbrella Man,
Welcome to the forum. Please look at the responses from teliot; he is one of the best gaming math people anywhere. (Vouching for him since you may not know one person from another among gaming forums).
Quote: umbrellamanWhere can I find a basic strategy chart for the rules I've described in my initial post?
https://wizardofodds.com/games/australian-blackjack/
In Canada:
- dealers hit soft 17
- early surrender vs ten is always allowed
- doubling is allowed on any first two cards
- 6 decks
- OBO (dealer takes original bets only when splitting and doubling on dealer BJ)
Other rules Canadian casinos use are:
- allowed to re-split to 4 hands (including Aces)
- re-split Aces receive only one card each
- player can double after split
- blackjack pays 3:2
To date, the basic strategy I've been using is the same one as I would use in an American casino that hits soft 17 (therefore I would double down on an 11 vs the dealer's Ace because if he gets blackjack I only lose my initial wager). Which surrenders should I use to take full advantage of the Early Surrender v Ten rule?
Maybe it's time the Wizard visits and writes an article on Canada!
Quote: umbrellamanIt looks like there are several differences between Blackjack in Australian and Canadian casinos.
In Canada:
- dealers hit soft 17
- early surrender vs ten is always allowed
- doubling is allowed on any first two cards
- 6 decks
- OBO (dealer takes original bets only when splitting and doubling on dealer BJ)
Other rules Canadian casinos use are:
- allowed to re-split to 4 hands (including Aces)
- re-split Aces receive only one card each
- player can double after split
- blackjack pays 3:2
To date, the basic strategy I've been using is the same one as I would use in an American casino that hits soft 17 (therefore I would double down on an 11 vs the dealer's Ace because if he gets blackjack I only lose my initial wager). Which surrenders should I use to take full advantage of the Early Surrender v Ten rule?
Maybe it's time the Wizard visits and writes an article on Canada!
An infinite-deck analysis gives the same basic strategy changes recommended by teliot. So, use the Wizard's H17 basic strategy chart here (the same as you have been using) with these additional surrenders against 10: pair of 8s and any total of 14.
If this is the house edge for a 6 deck shoe game, do you how much lower the house edge would be with the same rules but dealt out of a CSM?
Thanks!
Quote: umbrellamanThanks for this. I believe what I described to be OBO as opposed to OBBO since the player loses only his original bet on both splits and doubles in the event of dealer blackjack (using these definitions: /games/australian-blackjack/) So wouldn't the house edge be lowered by 0.05% to 0.3263%?
If this is the house edge for a 6 deck shoe game, do you how much lower the house edge would be with the same rules but dealt out of a CSM?
Thanks!
Thanks for stressing the difference between OBBO (original bet and busted bets only) and OBO (original bet only.) In the US, we are strictly OBO.
Here's an easy approach to your house edge question, which we had missed in this discussion. On that page, the Wizard gives the effect of blackjack rules on the player's expected value, and the effect of ES10 is +0.24%. When we subtract 0.24% from the house edge for your game (OBO, H17, split to four hands, DAS, etc.) calculated from the Wizard's blackjack edge calculator, we get: 0.29% for a continuous shuffle machine and 0.31% for a shoe with a cut card.
However, the Wizard's +0.24% might be the improvement of player EV by adding the ES10 rule to a game with no surrender at all. I believe the effect of adding ES10 to a game already having late surrender would be closer to +0.175%. This would make your house edge 0.356% for a continuous shuffle machine and 0.376% for a shoe with a cut card.
All other things are standard. Aces receive only one card, each player can double after split, blackjack pays 3:2, early surrender except against the ace, double any 2 cards, player can double after splitting any 2 cards.
I understand only Wynn allow re-splitting aces into 3 hands and the HA is -0.08%. Splitting into 4 hands is so rare I and maybe nobody else has ever seem this.
Re-splitting any other cards into 4 hands is a different matter and could push the HA into + territory. Are you sure about this.
Maybe Teliot can do his math's to see if it is possible for the casino to do this.
q=umbrellaman]It looks like there are several differences between Blackjack in Australian and Canadian casinos.
In Canada:
- dealers hit soft 17
- early surrender vs ten is always allowed
- doubling is allowed on any first two cards
- 6 decks
- OBO (dealer takes original bets only when splitting and doubling on dealer BJ)
Other rules Canadian casinos use are:
- allowed to re-split to 4 hands (including Aces)
- re-split Aces receive only one card each
- player can double after split
- blackjack pays 3:2
To date, the basic strategy I've been using is the same one as I would use in an American casino that hits soft 17 (therefore I would double down on an 11 vs the dealer's Ace because if he gets blackjack I only lose my initial wager). Which surrenders should I use to take full advantage of the Early Surrender v Ten rule?
Maybe it's time the Wizard visits and writes an article on Canada!
They game that you just described has a negative HA. That is the casino would lose money on this game.
Something got to give or is just not right.
Most casinos in certain parts of Asia have these rules and S17, for a house edge under 0.20%. These games are dealt from six-deck CSMs.Quote: dajakestaSurrender 14-16 against a 10 if early surrender is allowed. Also, would you be willing to disclose which casino this is? I'd go there in a heart beat
Quote: umbrellamanThanks, teliot. Do you know where I can find I find the index numbers to these surrender hands? In other words, using HiLo Full, at which negative counts would you not surrender and play out these hands on this game?
Hi Low Index for ES v Dealer 10
17 5
16 -5
15 -2
14 0
13 3
12 8
Meaning you Early Surrender if the Index is => from these indices.
The most important are 14 where you surrender when the count is positive and hit if negative
And 13 where you surrender at TC =+3
