Combining Casino Credit and Front Money

I'll be making a short trip to Vegas next month, and I've been approved for a $2,500 casino credit line at Harrah's (I applied for $5,000). I'm a low stakes gambler; my gambling budget is typically around $5,000. This is my first time applying for and receiving casino credit at any casino. I feel like $2,500 is a low amount -- two markers for $1,000 and the credit line is pretty much gone. It certainly won't impress any pit bosses, and it may even piss them off to wonder why someone would even bother with such a low line of credit.

I am considering putting up $5,000 in front money in addition to the $2,500 casino credit. I called the main cage at Harrah's and was told that all markers would come from my front money first before being drawn from my casino credit (which makes sense). Since I only expect to gamble around $5,000, I may never even touch the $2,500 casino credit.

I have a few questions:

1. Has anyone had any experience combining casino credit with front money?

2. Will it look bad if my winnings and losses cause me to never use any of the $2,500 casino credit?

3. Will the casino be less likely to extend me credit in the future (or event close my credit account) if my markers are drawn entirely from front money and no casino credit is used?

4. Does play get rated automatically with any markers, regardless of whether they come from front money or casino credit?


I want to stay on good terms with the casino and would like to be able to eventually raise my credit line to $5,000 or more so I can avoid putting up front money in the future.


Thanks in advance for any answers and/or advice.

Deposit 2500 front money- Draw the full marker for 5k at the table - anything more specific then that pm me
Disclaimer- I am not soliciting any fees for advice just not comfortable putting all info on the public forum

Confirm for me that you write checks to cover your markers, and that you sign something that allows the casino to draw against your bank account after a certain term with or without your further involvement.

That is what I would expect and the fact of the matter is you better have the money. I wouldn't get excited about the idea that it is 'credit'.

It means you don't have to carry cash around. That's fine and what it is really for.

Markers can get into a real weedy area too when degenerate gamblers are involved. Let's hope that is not you.

Quote: Pocketsidewalk

1. Has anyone had any experience combining casino credit with front money?

not me

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2. Will it look bad if my winnings and losses cause me to never use any of the $2,500 casino credit?

no

Quote:

3. Will the casino be less likely to extend me credit in the future (or event close my credit account) if my markers are drawn entirely from front money and no casino credit is used?

it's not really credit, so no

Quote:

4. Does play get rated automatically with any markers, regardless of whether they come from front money or casino credit?

yes

Quote:

I want to stay on good terms with the casino and would like to be able to eventually raise my credit line to $5,000 or more so I can avoid putting up front money in the future.

I wouldn't worry about it.

Quote:

Thanks in advance for any answers and/or advice.

PS: you're welcome, I have been looking into markers myself and don't have all the answers. The Marker system can be misused by the casinos IMO, but I think the vulnerable people are guys like professional athletes with a gambling problem.

Just to add a bit in response to some of the questions, and ask a couple others.
'Front Money' is not a term I'm familiar with, I assumed it was just cash you brought with you but I could be wrong. WoN said to deposit it, and then draw against it at the tables? Unless it was a large amount of money I'm not sure why you wouldn't just swap for chips at the table. Seems like an extra step, but maybe some payoff in terms of attention from the Pit? Wish WoN hadn't asked to continue only by PM 'cause I'd like to know more about the subject and his advice.
It's been discussed a couple times in the last couple months whether playing with markers added any value beyond just the simple fact of not having to carry around uncomfortable (for you) large amounts of cash. I haven't read about any clear other advantage.
The OP applied for 5K LOC and rec'd 2.5K. That caught my attention, and I wondered why. My experience has been ( working with a bank acct specifically set-up to cover my LOC ) that you put say 110% of the amount of the requested LOC in that acct, the casino verifies (I assume) that the money is there and maybe runs a credit check on you. It might be more complicated than that, and anyone is welcome to chime in with additional info.
Of course working with markers, or casino credit, can be an incredibly dangerous proposition for anyone that doesn't have serious self control and discipline (cough, cough). You don't have to be a professional athlete. Gamblers always risk going broke. With markers you can go way, way, beyond broke. Proceed with great caution!!!!!!!

The casinos are set-up to take your money, simple fact. You are supposed to have some fun in exchange. That makes them like many other forms of entertainment and I am not disparaging the concept, or casinos, in any way. I like to have fun, I don't mind paying for it. For some odd reason that MS Feathers doesn't understand, I happen to enjoy the hell out of BJ. Playing with markers is a dangerous game. Spending money with credit cards is similarly dangerous if you don't pay off the balance every single month. Just ask the 50% (guess) of American households that carry credit card debt from month to month!!!!

Just for example, there was a Friday night about a year ago that I walked into a casino where I had a $20K LOC and grabbed a 5K marker and proceeded to play, at a red chip table. Over the next 2 or 3 hours I took another three 5k markers, at a freaking red chip table, out of necessity to be able to continue to play. Unbelieveable, like one of those 18 yo's in a row nights. If it hadn't happened to me, I wouldn't believe it. You tell me it happened to you, I'd think BS, I might even type BS in a response and risk the wrath, but it happened. Everyone is different, but for me that was a huge amount of money. But it was money I had, in the bank, and I lost it. Sad day. I don't want to think about the possibility of losing money I don't have in the bank. Did I mention that playing with markers is playing in dangerous territory? Point made, I hope.

Got long winded, sorry.
There was also a mention in OP bout not using the credit. At least one of my LOC agreements specifically states that it becomes null and void if not used during any single 6 month period. I assume that means it stays in place as long as I play with markers against that LOC at least once every 5 months or so. I am not sure if that is an industry standard.

Good variance at the table to you. Just remember that variance is short term only, there is little or no variance over the long term.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Unless it was a large amount of money I'm not sure why you wouldn't just swap for chips at the table. Seems like an extra step, but maybe some payoff in terms of attention from the Pit? Wish WoN hadn't asked to continue only by PM 'cause I'd like to know more about the subject and his advice.
It's been discussed a couple times in the last couple months whether playing with markers added any value beyond just the simple fact of not having to carry around uncomfortable (for you) large amounts of cash. I haven't read about any clear other advantage.

Extra attention from the pit never hurts as long as it's good attention.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

The OP applied for 5K LOC and rec'd 2.5K. That caught my attention, and I wondered why. My experience has been ( working with a bank acct specifically set-up to cover my LOC ) that you put say 110% of the amount of the requested LOC in that acct, the casino verifies (I assume) that the money is there and maybe runs a credit check on you. It might be more complicated than that, and anyone is welcome to chime in with additional info.
Of course working with markers, or casino credit, can be an incredibly dangerous proposition for anyone that doesn't have serious self control and discipline (cough, cough). You don't have to be a professional athlete. Gamblers always risk going broke. With markers you can go way, way, beyond broke. Proceed with great caution!!!!!!!

In retrospect, I should've done more research regarding the way casinos evaluate your worth before extending casino credit. I believe that your current checking account balance or balance over the last several months is most important. There was no hard credit check from the casino.

I rarely keep a large balance in my checking account. I make most of my purchases with credit cards and then pay my credit cards off in full each month. I never keep a balance on my credit cards. The rest of my money goes into savings or money market accounts. So it's not like I don't have the money, I just don't keep it in a checking account that earns virtually no interest. I believe this is what caused me to receive a lower than expected amount of casino credit.

If I had to do it over, I would transfer money to my checking account a few months prior to submitting a casino credit application and let it sit in there. Perhaps 110% of the amount requested is the sweet spot as you suggested.

It's almost all based on average daily balance
I have not had a single casino pull my actual credit - they run a bank report and
Central casino credit to make sure you haven't bounced any markers
If I recall right they use terminology like mid 4s mids5 mid6

As in a 1-9k bank balance a10-99k balance and a 100k-999k balance but I have had markers that started at 5k go up to 100k once I had them run through more then a couple times, keep in mind though if you are a green chip player they are not giving you a 50k marker it's also based on play. They will more likely give you a 100k marker with only 10k in bank of you show the play then they would give you a 50k marker with 500 grand in the bank if you don't show the play

Not to hijack the thread or nothing, but something interesting happened to me (which really confused the hell out of me). I have a front money account (small $$ amount), pulled out a marker, played a bit, lost, went to cage to put the rest of the amount back in. Apparently you can only pay back the full amount of a marker when using front money....I thought that was odd, but OK. Then she says I OWE money against my account. Seems odd, that I would OWE money, when really, it's all my money to begin with! I didn't think it would be setup the same way as credit lines are....I figured I'd just have a balance (like in a debit/savings account at a bank), and whenever you take out money, your balance goes down, whenever you add in money, balance goes up. None of this "pay back money you borrowed" stuff.

Seems odd they'd do it that way....like what are they gonna do if I don't pay back my own money? LOL

I think I'd have to ask for the rest of my money back, now, just to make sure it's still mine?

2F, another good reason for Front Money is for travelers. Say you are travelling from Atlanta to Vegas, and have a gambling budget of $10,000. Instead of talking out a marker which you have to pay back, you can pre-arrange to have funds you intend to gamble with wired to the casino before your trip so you don't have to travel with $10,000 and have any run-ins with TSA or the PD at the airport due to having such a large sum of cash on you. You then take it out like you would a marker, but don't have any obligation to pay it back.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I think I'd have to ask for the rest of my money back, now, just to make sure it's still mine?

It'd be something to be told "no, once you give it to us, it's ours!"

Mr. Drysdale and the Beverly Hillbillies comes to mind.

Quote: odiousgambit

It'd be something to be told "no, once you give it to us, it's ours!"

Mr. Drysdale and the Beverly Hillbillies comes to mind.

Did you just label me as one of the Beverly Hillbillies? I don't know whether to be insulted or proud ;-)

Quote: RS

Not to hijack the thread or nothing, but something interesting happened to me (which really confused the hell out of me). I have a front money account (small $$ amount), pulled out a marker, played a bit, lost, went to cage to put the rest of the amount back in. Apparently you can only pay back the full amount of a marker when using front money....I thought that was odd, but OK. Then she says I OWE money against my account. Seems odd, that I would OWE money, when really, it's all my money to begin with! I didn't think it would be setup the same way as credit lines are....I figured I'd just have a balance (like in a debit/savings account at a bank), and whenever you take out money, your balance goes down, whenever you add in money, balance goes up. None of this "pay back money you borrowed" stuff.

Seems odd they'd do it that way....like what are they gonna do if I don't pay back my own money? LOL

Wait, so I assume this was just the girl confusing your front money with casino credit? I've actually never taken casino credit. I did offer front money to one place but ended up not doing it in the end, so I'm not familiar exactly with how this works. Tell me she just made a stupid mistake and that you didn't owe some kind of fee for gambling with your own front money lol.

Quote: Gabes22

2F, another good reason for Front Money is for travelers. Say you are travelling from Atlanta to Vegas, and have a gambling budget of $10,000. Instead of talking out a marker which you have to pay back, you can pre-arrange to have funds you intend to gamble with wired to the casino before your trip so you don't have to travel with $10,000 and have any run-ins with TSA or the PD at the airport due to having such a large sum of cash on you. You then take it out like you would a marker, but don't have any obligation to pay it back.

I see the point you are making, and it is a valid point. So now maybe I understand the term 'Front Money' better. Still, for me at least, I'd rather set-up a LOC with a joint(s) than wire them money up front. LOC has been relatively easy for me to set-up multiple times with multiple joint(s). I'd rather have verified funds sitting in my acct, that I give the joint(s) permission to tap into if/when I lose, than send them my money up front and ask them to 'hold it for me'. I know it's splitting hairs, and under special circumstances one approach might be better than another for certain individuals. Damn, does that effect comps? I do keep some cash (uninvested) in an acct to 'back' my LOCs, and it's only earning like 1/10% or almost nothing, but so far this year it's beating most of my carefully planned investments ;-(

Notice I keep mentioning joints? I am not trying to get any legal professionals that might be located in the Pacific Northwest to chime in with some legal, if smoke hazed, advice or anything. I swear ;-)

My experience is that casino credit is usually approved for an amount that is typically available in whichever account you provide.

As other have said the casinos are not really in the business of lending money. They just want it convenient for you to gamble the money you have. If you carry a typical balance of $10,000 in our checking account that is the amount they will give you for a credit line and they will expect it all paid back within 30 day. In Nevada if you fail to pay it back in a timely manner they will prosecute with the DA. I believe the DA gets about an 8% fee for handling this and that fee is to be paid by you and not the casino.

RS, the casinos do not want to be acting as your bank taking regular deposits and withdrawls. If they did that they would be subject to a lot of banking laws that they don't want to do the paperwork for

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Did you just label me as one of the Beverly Hillbillies? I don't know whether to be insulted or proud ;-)

"Mr. Drysdale of the Beverly Hillbillies" would have been a better way to put it.

I too think that the clerk got confused and assumed it was not money RS put in himself, or maybe is just used to talking about it in that manner whether it was fronted or not.

My only experience with Markers is being asked if I had taken one out while cashing in my chips; naturally if I had, they want that paid before I see any walking cash. That's when it occurred to me that casinos will take steps to be sure the credit line they are giving you is only for gambling at their property - not cash to use as one pleases.

Quote: Pocketsidewalk

I rarely keep a large balance in my checking account. I make most of my purchases with credit cards and then pay my credit cards off in full each month. I never keep a balance on my credit cards. The rest of my money goes into savings or money market accounts. So it's not like I don't have the money, I just don't keep it in a checking account that earns virtually no interest. I believe this is what caused me to receive a lower than expected amount of casino credit.

If I had to do it over, I would transfer money to my checking account a few months prior to submitting a casino credit application and let it sit in there. Perhaps 110% of the amount requested is the sweet spot as you suggested.

I have a similar problem - the balance in my checking account is generally somewhere between $0-$6000 depending on where I am in the paycheck/rent/CC bill cycle.

I applied for casino credit once (from a TR property; don't recall which one), and in anticipation of this application let $10K sit in that account for 6 months. It was an interest-bearing account from ING Direct (now Capital One 360), so I was at least getting something for it (I think 0.20%, so wooo $10 in interest for those 6 months).

I applied for $5K in credit and it was denied. The official reason was that my account was not old enough; the rejection letter said something like "account open less than 6 months." Which was bollocks, I had had that account for a couple of years. I think the disconnect was the acquisition by Capital One which had happened less than 6 months prior.

Anyway, haven't bothered since. Which is good. In keeping with my "more +EV play than -EV play" strategy, the ability to draw markers would only encourage me to engage in more -EV play.

Quote: Gabes22

2F, another good reason for Front Money is for travelers. Say you are travelling from Atlanta to Vegas, and have a gambling budget of $10,000. Instead of talking out a marker which you have to pay back, you can pre-arrange to have funds you intend to gamble with wired to the casino before your trip so you don't have to travel with $10,000 and have any run-ins with TSA or the PD at the airport due to having such a large sum of cash on you. You then take it out like you would a marker, but don't have any obligation to pay it back.

How much do you typically pay for a bank wire? I have thought of doing this in the past, but I balk at most bank fees. I'll take my chances with a money belt full of benjamins. Free to withdraw and free to deposit at my local branch :).

ETA: There is an evaluation of risk here as well. I have evaluated my risk of having the cash stolen or confiscated by the fuzz as R, and in my estimation R*bankroll < wire fee. YMMV.

Quote: AcesAndEights

How much do you typically pay for a bank wire? I have thought of doing this in the past, but I balk at most bank fees. I'll take my chances with a money belt full of benjamins. Free to withdraw and free to deposit it my local branch :).

ETA: There is an evaluation of risk here as well. I have evaluated my risk of having the cash stolen or confiscated by the fuzz as R, and in my estimation R*bankroll < wire fee. YMMV.

I don't do it, I was just explaining for my friend 2Feathers, why one would use it. I really don't know what kind of fees would be associated with a wire of 10K. The advantage in using front money IMO is A) in not having to travel with the cash, which can be accomplished with a marker and B) not having to pay it back, which isn't an advantage a marker gives you. As you did point out wires are expensive. I am sure you could do it for much less with a certified check as well, but that might take a bit longer than a wire.

But here is a recent article 10/2015 of what banks charge
http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/wire-transfers-what-banks-charge/

Quote: AcesAndEights

How much do you typically pay for a bank wire?

I would say that $25 - $35 is probably typical. I have heard that some casinos will credit you with the fee amount.

Quote: AcesAndEights

I have a similar problem - the balance in my checking account is generally somewhere between $0-$6000 depending on where I am in the paycheck/rent/CC bill cycle.

I applied for casino credit once (from a TR property; don't recall which one), and in anticipation of this application let $10K sit in that account for 6 months. It was an interest-bearing account from ING Direct (now Capital One 360), so I was at least getting something for it (I think 0.20%, so wooo $10 in interest for those 6 months).

I applied for $5K in credit and it was denied. The official reason was that my account was not old enough; the rejection letter said something like "account open less than 6 months." Which was bollocks, I had had that account for a couple of years. I think the disconnect was the acquisition by Capital One which had happened less than 6 months prior.

Anyway, haven't bothered since. Which is good. In keeping with my "more +EV play than -EV play" strategy, the ability to draw markers would only encourage me to engage in more -EV play.

Made me laugh, for the first time today, thx.
I didn't know this was soooo complicated. My little bank acct has 8 digits, preceeded by 5 zeroes, been intact since man discovered fire basically. Been thru several mergers and/or buyouts, on at least the 4th name for the bank, but the acct been around for awhile, and the acct # is the same ;-). When I go talk to the bank officials and mention something about this and that casino having been given permission to ding my account when appropriate the bank person ( usually a lady ) gets an unusual expression on their face, one ran out of the room laughing. I thought I was a normal customer, may have been wrong again.....