Telling girlfriend/potential girlfriend you are an AP
Quote: 1arrowheaddrWill most women think I'm degen and want to have nothing to do with me?
Who cares? One of your goals should be to figure out where they stand. If they don't like it, they ain't for you.
The quicker you find out, the better. If she don't dig it, kill the relationship and don't look back.
Quote: FaceWho cares? One of your goals should be to figure out where they stand. If they don't like it, they ain't for you.
The quicker you find out, the better. If she don't dig it, kill the relationship and don't look back.
Face is the TruthSpeaker.
Quote: FaceWho cares? One of your goals should be to figure out where they stand. If they don't like it, they ain't for you.
The quicker you find out, the better. If she don't dig it, kill the relationship and don't look back.
Exactly.
To an Advantage Player, card counting and AP play must be more important than having a meaningful relationship with a member of the opposite sex.
If AP play is beneath her standards, then she is beneath YOUR standards, - and be sure to let her know this, that you got your priorities straight.
Quote: PaigowdanExactly.
To an Advantage Player, card counting and AP play must be more important than having a meaningful relationship with a member of the opposite sex.
WTF? Really you think this? Balderdash!
Quote:If AP play is beneath her standards, then she is beneath YOUR standards, - and be sure to let her know this!
No, don't say it that way at all. Terrible way of putting it.
Some women may accept it, some may not, but I would like to think that the lady is more important than the card play.
For me, gambling and game design is my career, but if my wife says I'm not gambling for a month, then I don't gamble, AND I don't worry about it.
I am really not p-whipped or anything, I just accept:
1. My home life is more important than card play.
2. This is best in the long run.
Quote: PaigowdanHonestly, I was being sarcastic, ....
Sorry flew right over my head!
As a woman, I am reluctant to speak for all women, because apparently I think about things more like a man. (Though that sentence alone probably qualifies me!) However, I think you can tell her flat out that you play (assuming 5/wk is accurate), you enjoy it, you're good at it. To me it's like a poker night, a hobby night involving expensive toys, or any other thing like that a guy brings into a relationship as a prior commitment of his time and social life. I don't think you have to equate it to a drug habit or a serial womanizer in how you tell it; you're not looking to be cured, you're looking to be off the leash about it.
I think up-front honesty about how you like to spend your time and your entertainment money is the best way to go. Establish that this is something you're doing, that it's important to you, and it's part of who she's dating. If that's a dealbreaker for her, then it's your call on any ultimatum, but I would consider that overcontrolling and manipulative of her. I don't think you should ask for her approval, but if she likes the idea, you should include her in the casino trips some times (though not necessarily at your table or game) and keep her up to date. If she's for you, she'll be interested in what you're interested in. And if you're earning comps to shows and food and such, she'll get the benefit of them as well, I would think.
My guess is that you have not had a lot of practice at this and are willing to settle for someone who will settle for you. This is a dangerous situation to be in emotionally because it will probably end badly and painfully emotionally, especially if you get too serious too fast. The best thing would be to be casual with your relationships until you have the confidence to know that mediocre relationships are easy to come by, and the trick is to find a truly special one.
I am going to celebrate my 20th anniversary this coming week and was once a person who would have settled for a mediocre relationship. I was unbelievably lucky to stumble into something special despite myself, but I have seen a lot of divorces and separations which were very painful for those involved. Be patient and selective in order to at least start off on the right foot, so to speak.
Quote: thecesspitSorry flew right over my head!
I know darn well it didn't, but just out of a sense of honesty I had stated it.
But seriously, on this topic, the old lady/relationships should be more important than card play. What if you're married and have kids, that would be the most important thing.
And even if you don't have an old lady, if a lady like this said to you at a table, "uh, listen, I'm finished playing, - but you're kinda cute...would you like to come with me and have a drink?" Would you answer, "Naaah, the shoe is +9, I'm staying!"
Quote: FaceWho cares? One of your goals should be to figure out where they stand. If they don't like it, they ain't for you.
.
+1
Quote: PaigowdanExactly.
To an Advantage Player, card counting and AP play must be more important than having a meaningful relationship with a member of the opposite sex.
.
Once again Dan totally misses the point. Congrats!
Quote: PaigowdanSome women may accept it, some may not, but I would like to think that the lady is more important than the card play.
It has nothing to do with the card play, Dan.
Quote: 1arrowheaddrII've started dating again recently and I was looking for general advice on how to tell a girlfriend/potential girlfriend. How long do I wait to tell? Will most women think I'm degen and want to have nothing to do with me? Any advice is appreciated.
I wouldn't bother to let her know until the two of you are going to bed (presumably with one another).
Hello, pillow talk.
Wait for her to fall for you: her emotional connection should trump her intellectual objections, and will likely lead to begrudging acceptance.
You DO understand that she'll resent anything that takes you away from her, unless it is something she suggests.
Then again, if you decide to plunge completely into the AP world, you'd best give up women completely.
Well, not *completely*
AP lover
Quote: beachbumbabs
I think up-front honesty about how you like to spend your time and your entertainment money is the best way to go. Establish that this is something you're doing, that it's important to you, and it's part of who she's dating. If that's a dealbreaker for her, then it's your call on any ultimatum, but I would consider that overcontrolling and manipulative of her. .
Bingo! This is a woman talking, Dan. Pay attention.
Quote: paigowdanhaving a serious vocation with gambling would be an issue for most.
Then she's not for you, move on. Why would you want a
woman who had problems with what you do?
Quote: MrVWait for her to fall for you: her emotional connection should trump her intellectual objections, and will likely lead to begrudging acceptance.
She might have a more visceral objection. You'll get the intellectual objection from Charlie Rose.
Call me sexist, but Women don't have "begrudging acceptance." Instead, they have "simmering resentment." That's different, and is as close as it comes.
I listen to the late Rev. Sam Kinison on this subject.
Spent your time trying to get in her pants. That's the + EV play.
: )
It's because we TELL them what we do, only to be tried by her judge, jury, and executioner.
Quote: rxwineI can't believe everyone has it completely backward. If you gamble a hell of a lot you better tell her you're an AP, even if you are not. Otherwise, you're just in a casino hours on end losing money. Hell, you're a damn AP.
: )
So I guess you're saying that an AP only tells when he wins? :) I wish I'd thought of that....
Quote: PaigowdanIt can be said that "those who are lucky at cards are unlucky in love." .
It can also be said that's a ridiculous statement. One has
nothing to do with the other. How could it? Counting isn't
cheating, its not illegal, you aren't breaking any laws.
Quote: PaigowdanI know darn well it didn't, but just out of a sense of honesty I had stated it.
Well it did. I really didn't think you were being sarcastic and it was another anti-AP rant brewing. My bad.
Quote:
But seriously, on this topic, the old lady/relationships should be more important than card play. What if you're married and have kids, that would be the most important thing.
Indeed. But if you are just starting to data someone, honesty in who you are in is important.
Quote:And even if you don't have an old lady, if a lady like this said to you at a table, "uh, listen, I'm finished playing, - but you're kinda cute...would you like to come with me and have a drink?" Would you answer, "Naaah, the shoe is +9, I'm staying!"
If you are professional tire fitter, and this cute girl collected her car, in the middle day, would you say 'yes ma'am, lets go get a drink' or 'no, sorry, I have to finish my work here first, can I meet you later?'
Quote: 1arrowheaddrI'm in my late 20's, have a full-time job, recently finished professional school and I am a semi-pro AP. I play the tables for 5 or so hours a week and make an average of about $1,000 a month. AP for me is a profitable hobby. I've started dating again recently and I was looking for general advice on how to tell a girlfriend/potential girlfriend. How long do I wait to tell? Will most women think I'm degen and want to have nothing to do with me? Any advice is appreciated.
The way I explained it to my now wife and then girlfriend was. "This is my hobby, I don't go to expensive concerts or a tremendous amount of sporting events, don't collect anything (except casino chips) ...this is what I like to do with my spare time and spare money". "If I go to Disneyworld there is no chance I'm making a profit. If we go to Vegas or AC...maybe". "I'm pretty good at it, turn a profit more often than not, and go out of my way to play the best games with the best rules" "You are welcome to come with me". I showed her my bookshelf of Blackjack books. etc etc. Explained the math to her to the extent she cared about it. Then she went with me, she liked the restaurants, the beach, the resorts, the nightlife etc. She doesn't gamble at all, but goes on trips with me and we have a great time. She reads a book or goes to the pool or whatever. If you kind find one of those marry her. If not, she's not for you probably.
Quote: thecesspitWell it did. I really didn't think you were being sarcastic and it was another anti-AP rant brewing. My bad.
Yes exactly, cesspit, "your bad," because it wasn't an anti-AP rant, - as I included the expression all card play, in the sense that relationships and family/personal life are more important than card play, be it AP play or not. The fact that it is also condescending to AP play is just an added bonus.
Quote: PaiGowDanBut seriously, on this topic, the old lady and relationships should be more important than card play.
Quote: thecesspitIndeed. But if you are just starting to data someone, honesty in who you are in is important.
So if you're about using camouflage, cover play, false disguises and false ID, not to mention the view that AP play is arguably about scamming gambling halls, the lady is going to see you're just filled with honesty and integrity and ripe for an honest relationship, right?
Most AP players who are honest about how AP is seen by the general public would say that it is seen as a less than bona fide profession, and in a poor light. So if you're going to be open and honest about such a career with a non-counting lady on the first date, you'll have a tough time getting to second. I agree it does not have to be immediately disclosed.
Quote: PGDAnd even if you don't have an old lady, if a lady like this said to you at a table, "uh, listen, I'm finished playing, - but you're kinda cute...would you like to come with me and have a drink?" Would you answer, "Naaah, the shoe is +9, I'm staying!"
Quote: thecesspitIf you are professional tire fitter, and this cute girl collected her car, in the middle day, would you say 'yes ma'am, lets go get a drink' or 'no, sorry, I have to finish my work here first, can I meet you later?'
Casinos are open 24/7; if you're working as an AP, you're not punching a clock like a tire fitter, so you can indeed step away from the table for a drink with a lady without firing yourself for it the way the boss can fire a tire fitter. And your use of the "tire fitting" profession where AP play is being discussed is derogatory to AP play, some would think here. Not me, though.
Quote: Paigowdan
So if you're about using camouflage, cover play, false disguises and false ID, not to mention the view that AP play is arguably about scamming gambling halls, the lady is going to see you're just filled with honesty and integrity and ripe for an honest relationship, right?
.
If you present it to her in the false manner you're implying,
then of course she'll see it that way. But because it's not a scam,
it's not illegal, it's not a crime, she'll see she it the way you explain
it to her. She'll 'get it', something you have yet to do, Dan.
The woman who is right for you won't just accept this: she will want to be your partner in it. That's the woman you want. There's a reason the poets and songwriters write about soulmates.
Quote: 1arrowheaddrI'm in my late 20's, have a full-time job, recently finished professional school and I am a semi-pro AP. I play the tables for 5 or so hours a week and make an average of about $1,000 a month. AP for me is a profitable hobby. I've started dating again recently and I was looking for general advice on how to tell a girlfriend/potential girlfriend. How long do I wait to tell? Will most women think I'm degen and want to have nothing to do with me? Any advice is appreciated.
Once you tell her you'd better not piss her off or she will call the casino and advise them to review the videotapes of your play.
Also, be prepared for her to begin thinking that the money you make as an AP is "free money" from gambling and that you shouldn't "be cheap" with that money (i.e. spend it on her)
Quote: Mosca
The woman who is right for you won't just accept this: she will want to be your partner in it. That's the woman you want. There's a reason the poets and songwriters write about soulmates.
Once again Mosca cuts right to the chase..
Quote: aceofspades
Also, be prepared for her to begin thinking that the money you make as an AP is "free money" from gambling and that you shouldn't "be cheap" with that money (i.e. spend it on her)
Hmm, as a 40 year old bachelor, Ace sounds like he's
talking from personal experience.
Quote: EvenBobIf you present it to her in the false manner you're implying,
then of course she'll see it that way. But because it's not a scam,
it's not illegal, it's not a crime, she'll see she it the way you explain
it to her.
That isn't a false manner, as it is the real deal of it all, as the tool kit of the card counter: camouflage, false id, doing things against the casino house rules, etc. It isn't above board and it is not sanctioned - as opposed to all that good wholesome stuff. AP is bad faith in the casino house, and justifies back-offs and expulsion from the casino house in all of its wonderful legality, cleanliness of play, and legitimacy.
Quote: EvenBobShe'll 'get it', something you have yet to do, Dan.
Bob, if she's a regular civilian woman who'll expect a man she met to possibly be a salaried professional, what she may worry about getting is something else.
And I understand it just fine.
Quote: vendman1The way I explained it to my now wife and then girlfriend was. "This is my hobby, I don't go to expensive concerts or a tremendous amount of sporting events, don't collect anything (except casino chips) ...this is what I like to do with my spare time and spare money". "If I go to Disneyworld there is no chance I'm making a profit. If we go to Vegas or AC...maybe". "I'm pretty good at it, turn a profit more often than not, and go out of my way to play the best games with the best rules" "You are welcome to come with me". I showed her my bookshelf of Blackjack books. etc etc. Explained the math to her to the extent she cared about it. Then she went with me, she liked the restaurants, the beach, the resorts, the nightlife etc. She doesn't gamble at all, but goes on trips with me and we have a great time. She reads a book or goes to the pool or whatever. If you kind find one of those marry her. If not, she's not for you probably.
Did she explain her hobbies to you? Did she say - "Listen, I don't drink or smoke but, I like to nag for hours on end." or "I don't drink or smoke but, I will max out all of our credit cards."
(this is not meant to be a personal attack on your situation)
Quote: aceofspadesAlso, be prepared for her to begin thinking that the money you make as an AP is "free money" from gambling and that you shouldn't "be cheap" with that money (i.e. spend it on her)
This is one of the things I am worried about. I'm also concerned that my AP bankroll will become "free money" as well.
Quote: PaigowdanThat isn't a false manner, as it is the real deal of it all, as the tool kit of the card counter: camouflage, false id, doing things against the casino house rules, etc. It isn't above board and it is not sanctioned -
And where are those rules, Dan? Oh yeah, they're
hidden, super secret casino rules that aren't even
written anywhere. Sure you want to go down that
road yet again?
Quote: EvenBobHmm, as a 40 year old bachelor, Ace sounds like he's
talking from personal experience.
Indeed I am.
Quote: 1arrowheaddrThis is one of the things I am worried about. I'm also concerned that my AP bankroll will become "free money" as well.
Ye olde "if you are just using it for gambling, why not put it to better use?"
Quote: aceofspadesIndeed I am.
Please don't tell me your recent Vegas windfall
has already fallen into some blonds hands, Ace.
Not again..
Quote: EvenBobPlease don't tell me your recent Vegas windfall
has already fallen into some blonds hands, Ace.
Not again..
The blonde's name is Visa, the brunette is Mastercard and the redhead is American Express.
Quote: EvenBobAnd where are those rules, Dan? Oh yeah, they're
hidden, super secret casino rules that aren't even
written anywhere. Sure you want to go down that
road yet again?
Bob, I'm not going to say: "I can tell you, but I'd have to kill you, it's that TOP SECRET! oooh!"
Game protection guidelines are documented in the casino's internal guidelines, procedures and documentation, especially for surveillance and table games shift management use, and are not shared or are disseminated to the general public, as it is proprietary information. Don't like it, Bob? Go bowling.
Quote: aceofspadesThe blonde's name is Visa, the brunette is Mastercard and the redhead is American Express.
Those bitches! I know them, Ace, be very careful. They
promise everything and deliver nothing but misery and sorrow.
Quote: EvenBobThose bitches! I know them, Ace, be very careful. They
promise everything and deliver nothing but misery and sorrow.
That threesome is unavoidable in today's world.
Quote: Paigowdanand are not shared or are disseminated to the general public
Super secret, unverifiable rules that the public
isn't even supposed to know about, ay Dan?
Isn't that like having a super secret unposted
speed limit and then giving violators a ticket
when they go over it? Is that really fair?
Everyone - especially card counters and AP's - know what is allowed and what is not allowed by the house. The exact methods of spotting and tracking, etc., are not shared. Think of it as Kentucky Fried Chicken's secret recipe, Bob. You can't walk into a KFC and demand to see the secret fried chicken recipe, now can you, Bob? Same with Coke's formula, and of course, Phil Moskowitz's secret Egg Salad recipe (from Woody Allen's What's Up Tiger Lily.)
The government doesn't tell us everything, KFC doesn't, Coca-Cola doesn't, and the surveillance crew doesn't either.
Get over it.
Quote: MoscaThe woman who is right for you won't just accept this: she will want to be your partner in it. That's the woman you want. There's a reason the poets and songwriters write about soulmates.
Bam. There it is.
You married guys are coming at the wrong angle. Yes, marriage is about compromise and understanding and blah-blah-puke. Dude is still unattached. Why start out in a compromising position?
Go for perfection. While you still can.
Quote: Paigowdan
Everyone - especially card counters and AP's - know what is allowed and what is not allowed by the house..
Actually, we don't, not really. Even when a casino busts you,
they never tell you what it's for. "Hey buddy, you're disguising
your play, that's against secret rule 16a in our handbook."
They never tell you anything because they're terrified of getting
sued. They know their stupid secret rules are unenforceable
in the eyes of the law, that's why they're so secret.
Quote: EvenBobActually, we don't, not really. Even when a casino busts you,
they never tell you what it's for. "Hey buddy, you're disguising
your play, that's against secret rule 16a in our handbook."
They never tell you anything because they're terrified of getting
sued. They know their stupid secret rules are unenforceable
in the eyes of the law, that's why they're so secret.
What can I say. I give up.....
"Bob, you're too good for me. You're done for the night."
Quote: 1arrowheaddrI'm in my late 20's, have a full-time job, recently finished professional school and I am a semi-pro AP. I play the tables for 5 or so hours a week and make an average of about $1,000 a month. AP for me is a profitable hobby. I've started dating again recently and I was looking for general advice on how to tell a girlfriend/potential girlfriend. How long do I wait to tell? Will most women think I'm degen and want to have nothing to do with me? Any advice is appreciated.
Never let a girlfriend learn anything you don't want the IRS, District Attorney or Casino Security to know. Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned and women think they've been scorned for the flimsiest of reasons sometimes.
Quote: PaigowdanWhat can I say. I give up.....
If only that were true, Dan, if you would only see the light..
Not chipping at your bankroll for other entertainment expenses.
Not giving you the third degree about where you've been if a session runs hot and you're an hour late (assuming you haven't been stupid enough to make plans with her for immediately after you play). Negotiates a kitchen pass and sticks to it.
Not overreacting if you get backed off or trespassed and she's there.
If you're going to have a gf and be an AP, that includes;
Being strict with yourself about paying bills, getting to your job on time, and keeping to a schedule with her that you prearrange. Don't be a deadbeat over protecting your bankroll or allow yourself to become unreliable.
Decide when and where you're going to play and stick to that schedule, rather than letting yourself slide into more and more time playing. If you're in a position to increase your AP time commitment (successful and want to up your activity), talk to her first about it.
Never lie about it to her. If you're sticking to your budget, there are going to be wins and losses, and she knows it. That money is yours to manage, and if you manage it well, you have nothing to lie about, win or lose. If you have a problem, come clean about it to her.
Don't lie to yourself; if you're making money, fine. If not, don't chase your losers with money you can't afford to spend. If it works, it will lull you into thinking you can get away with it when you have to. If it doesn't, it was money you couldn't afford in the first place. Either way you lose.
If she can't abide with this, she's not the right woman. And if you can't do those things, you shouldn't be with a gf. Stick to arm candy and one-nighters.
JMHO. YMMV.
