Pi and the Torah
So, to start, how was the High Priest supposed to know what God's name was? Did it change every year? A plot point of the movie was that the name could be found by deciphering numerical codes in the Torah. Is that just numerology nonsense, or a fundamental part of the religion?
Thanks in advance.
The name used by the high priest during the annual Yom Kippur service in the holy of holies in the Temple in Jerusalem is the most revered one and consists of four Hebrew letters that were never pronounced. It is represented by the Hebrew letters Yod-Hei-Vav-Hei (YHVH) and is often referred to as the Ineffable Name. see http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm
If the high priest was worthy, his pronunciation of this name three times during the High Holiday service would lead to God's mercy on the Jewish people for the upcoming year. If he was not, it would lead to his death (they actually tied bells on his tunic and a string that would enable priests to pull him back from the holy of holies in case of his demise).
Quote: jmaftirIf the high priest was worthy, his pronunciation of this name three times during the High Holiday service would lead to God's mercy on the Jewish people
Can't have a real religion without superststion
and hocus pocus. Later on a Jewish guy was
walking on water and changing water into wine
for his friends.
Quote: EvenBobCan't have a real religion without superststion and hocus pocus.
Let's try to have a civil discussion. Those who don't wish to learn something don't have to participate.
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Numerology is BIG with Hebrew and Jews.
Toward that end, I almost pledged and extra 18¢ to your Climb the Stratosphere campaign. Numbers are assigned to each letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The word "Chai" meaning 'Life', has a numerical value of 18. As a result, Jews often give gifts in multiples of $18, or add 18¢ to round number gifts.
Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria for more fascinating stuff on this subject.
Quote: FinsRuleI don't believe that numerology is a "fundamental" part of the religion. As DJ writes, the 18 is the only thing i have ever heard. And I think that numerology stuff in the torah for the movie is false.
I invite the Jewish members to watch this clip from Pi. It explains some, what I would call coincidences, when converting Hebrew letters to numbers. How much do you see of this in everyday Jewish life? You see a little bit of it in Christianity with efforts like The Bible Code, but I completely dismiss that as a intellectually empty effort to sell books.
That said, there are people who are into gematria (Hebrew numerology) but it still very much an esoteric discipline. Some of it trickles down into mainstream Judaism like the "Chai/18" concordance that DJ mentioned. It's kind of fun to find the coincidences but in the end it doesn't mean much.
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How much of the bible have you read, and fully understood?Quote: DeMangoWhy not read The Bible itself and find out?
If ever there was a book that needed interpretation and analysis, in all forms, it's the bible.
Not part of the religion, per se, but a major part of discussions by the rabbis and their students.Quote: FinsRuleI don't believe that numerology is a "fundamental" part of the religion.
That's typical.Quote: FinsRuleAs DJ writes, the 18 is the only thing i have ever heard.
Unless you are into it, or hang out with people that really get into it, you're not going to see much of the numerology in every day life.Quote: WizardHow much do you see of this in everyday Jewish life?
At most, the average person will generally only be exposed to it during a D'var Torah.
Note: A D'var Torah an educational type sermon, offered at synagogue services and other religious gatherings. (Is this similar to a Homily?)
Quote: WizardI invite the Jewish members to watch this clip from Pi. It explains some, what I would call coincidences, when converting Hebrew letters to numbers. How much do you see of this in everyday Jewish life? You see a little bit of it in Christianity with efforts like The Bible Code, but I completely dismiss that as a intellectually empty effort to sell books.
There are a few things to note:
First, as noted in the clip from Pi, unlike English or other languages using Latin-derived characters, Hebrew letters serve dual-duty as numbers. The reason 18 is important in Hebrew is because the word "chai", meaning "life", also represents the number 18. Naturally, Wikipedia has a link to Hebrew numerals.
Second, engaging in numerology with written Hebrew, especially the Torah, is much easier than with English. Hebrew text uses diacritical marks for vowels rather than additional letters, so the probability that a random string forms a word is much higher with Hebrew letters than with English.
I've seen a book called "Computorah" which dealt with this sort of biblical numerology, and I'm aware of the brief popularity of "The Bible Code". However, numerology is not a meaningful part of any religious practice of which I'm aware, Christian, Jewish, or otherwise. It tends to be more associated with mysticism, such as the Kabbalah, but that's not considered mainstream either.
I finally had a chance to watch the clip. I was somewhat humored by it.Quote: WizardI invite the Jewish members to watch this clip from Pi....
I liken it to those people who look for - and find - an image of Jesus in the clouds, on rocks, and on a dog's butt. Sure, it's fun, but is it really meaningful?Quote: teddysThat said, there are people who are into gematria (Hebrew numerology) but it still very much an esoteric discipline. Some of it trickles down into mainstream Judaism like the "Chai/18" concordance that DJ mentioned. It's kind of fun to find the coincidences but in the end it doesn't mean much.
Those who look for meaning will find it. Or invent it.
For example, anyone who has been to a Passover Seder knows how nuts Jews get about it. The seder is the telling of the story of the Exodus from Egypt. But in telling that story, the numerologists manage to turn what everyone knows as Ten Plagues, into a total of 250 plagues!
To that, my response is, "Jews love numbers. It's why so many are accountants!"
Quote: DJTeddyBearNote: I haven't seen Pi, nor had a chance to watch the clips linked.
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How much of the bible have you read, and fully understood?
If ever there was a book that needed interpretation and analysis, in all forms, it's the bible. q]
It's pretty hard to misunderstand the Bible with as many translations and commentaries there are out there. Try the "Life Application Study Bible", in the New Living Translation edition. It's gotta be 50% commentary plus all sorts of study helps. Of course many choose to stay ignorant but that's another discussion.When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
Quote: DeMangoQuote: DJTeddyBearNote: I haven't seen Pi, nor had a chance to watch the clips linked.
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How much of the bible have you read, and fully understood?
If ever there was a book that needed interpretation and analysis, in all forms, it's the bible.
It's pretty hard to misunderstand the Bible with as many translations and commentaries there are out there. Try the "Life Application Study Bible", in the New Living Translation edition. It's gotta be 50% commentary plus all sorts of study helps. Of course many choose to stay ignorant but that's another discussion.
[Sees hook, sniffs, swims away.....]
There is a discussion of this here, which I admit is over my head.
Quote: s2dbakerI thought this thread was about First Kings 7 23 where pi =3
As a math-inclined person who was raised Christian, I can't believe I've never seen this verse before!
Quote: jmaftirThe ancient Hebrews were very maticulous in their math calculations. One thing they kept was an accurate lunar calendar. It turns out their estimation of the lunar month is only 0.5 second off from NASA results.
There is a discussion of this here, which I admit is over my head.
Keep in mind that the Moon is slowly moving away from the Earth, changing the length of the lunar month. I wonder if the ancient Hebrews took this, "tidal friction" into account?
Quote: WizardI just finished watching the movie pi for a second time. The movie brings up a number (sorry for the pun) of questions about Judaism. To start, the Jewish characters in the movie at least claim that before the Romans destroyed the Temple the highest priest was supposed to go into the Holy of Holies once a year, where the Ten Commandments was kept. He had only to do one thing -- say God's name. If he got it right, then his people had a good year. If not, he died.
So, to start, how was the High Priest supposed to know what God's name was? Did it change every year? A plot point of the movie was that the name could be found by deciphering numerical codes in the Torah. Is that just numerology nonsense, or a fundamental part of the religion?
Thanks in advance.
Pi got some basic facts wrong. The High Priest said the ineffable name once a year. But he didn't say it in the Holy of Holies. He said it to a crowd filled with worshipers. Today, we still read a detailed description of every single tiny thing the High Priest did on Yom Kippur every Yom Kippur, as part of the Mussaf service.
So the name was transmitted orally from generation to generation. Only the High Priest said it, and only once a year. But tens of thousands of people would hear him say it, including many priestly-caste children (Cohanim).
Today, we don't know exactly what The Name sounded like, because the chain of transmission got cut when the Temple fell.
At least that's what Cantor Newfeld told us in fourth grade Hebrew School.
Cantor Newfeld also told us about the "modern science" version of the Bible (hey guys, this was in the early 1960s... my Bar Mitzvah was in 1965) which included that "7 days" could have been 7 hundred billion years, and in the Holy of Holies was a communications device to speak with aliens from other planets, and manna falling from heaven was an air drop of supplies from the alien spaceships, and the aliens parted the Red Sea so the "chosen people" could escape.
Some more Hebrew School stories...
Moses had red dye in his rod to taint the water at a time when he knew the red mud of the Nile was ready to slide...
Good intelligence about the swarming insects also helped...
Lots wife didn't turn to a pillar of salt but she didnt take shelter and was burned by the Nuke that was detonated in the city of Sodom...
There are a whole bunch of these and yes back in the early 1960s they were gaining popularity.
The other thing Cantor Newfeld taught us was to alway carry tissues in our pocket. And at the start of every glass you had to show your tissues. No sneezing or coughing in your hands. Smart guy, Cantor Newfeld was. Decades ahead of his time.
Now, if you think all of this is hocus pocus, just how were the Pyramids built... how did the Stones even get to where they were assembled... and that's even before you think about the engineering of the Pyramid structure?
all of the Ancient Aliens story can really make some sense... Plains of Nazca anyone? What about those ancient illustrations of beings wearing what look like space helmets?
I'm not a minister of the Church of Atheism because of ignorance.Quote: AcesAndEightsAs a math-inclined person who was raised Christian, I can't believe I've never seen this verse before!
Quote: AlanMendelsonNow, if you think all of this is hocus pocus, just how were the Pyramids built...
Mostly with cheap labor and clever engineers. Just ebcause you can't think of a way to build them using ancient technology, doesn't mean some ancients didn't either.
Here is a clip of a real life sermon on the relationship between pi and the Torah. I would take it this guy is rather outside the mainstream?
However, with such a reverence for the original Hebrew, is there still a respected English translation? I tend think the percentage of American Jews who can read Hebrew is not very high. For them, who are willing to accept a translation, what is available?
Quote: WizardA major plot point to Pi was trying to find the name of God by unlocking a numerical code on the Torah.
Ia can't answer your questions, sorry. I thought hebrew numerology was sheer nonsense even when I went willingly to the temple on Friday evenings.
But you remind me of a "meh" kind fo story by Arthur C. Clarke (he was at his best on short stories, BTW, except on this one and a few others), called "The Nine Billion Names of God." It's about Budhist monks, I think, who make use of a computer to find out all the names of god.
Quote: NareedIt's about Budhist monks, I think, who make use of a computer to find out all the names of god.
Does god keep changing his name in that religion too? I might add that it keeps changing in Christianity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Revelations says that when god comes back for the second coming he will change his name yet again. Why doesn't he pick one and stick with it?
When I was a kid I always hated my first name because there were always two or three other Mikes in every class. So I came up with an alternative one every six months or so I asked people to refer to me by, which nobody ever did.
I would agree that there are few American Jews that can read Hebrew. Even fewer that can understand it. But there are plenty of decent English translations available.Quote: WizardHowever, with such a reverence for the original Hebrew, is there still a respected English translation? I tend think the percentage of American Jews who can read Hebrew is not very high. For them, who are willing to accept a translation, what is available?
First of all, a "Torah" is a hand-written scroll containing the 5 books of Moses, on wodden rods, with elaborate coverings used before storing them in the ark. Not to be confused with Noah's Ark, a synaguge ark is a cabinet situated on the back wall, center of the Beemah (stage).
They are used to read the weekly passage, as well as to read alternate passages on holidays. For this reason, to avoid long delays as well as wear and tear, synagogue will have a minimum of two. I've seen synagoges with as many as 10 Torahs.
There is no deviation to the content, or even the shape of the lettering, for these hand-written scrolls. By "Hand-written," I mean it literally. Scribes write them on specially prepared parchment, using special ink and quill. When finished, these parchments are stitched together and attached to the wood rods. In daily use, if it is discovered that some of the ink has seperated from the parchment, the Torah is sent to a scribe for repair. Depending on the type of damage, the word may be fixed, or the section of parchment may need to be replaced. This is another reason for synagogues having extras, as well as a reason for their high price.
To follow along with the reading, you can use a Chumash. This is a normal, printed bound book with the text of the Torah in Hebrew, and a translation, as well as commentary about the passages. Depending on how elaborate the edition is, the commentary may use multiple sources and may be in both Hebrew and English. Of course, Hebrew only editions are also available.
For example: http://books.google.com/books?id=xZk9yIYrjJQC&hl=en
This particular edition is rather elaborate, going so far as to not translate certain words, but to merely spell them out using the Latin alphabet. I.E. If you go past the introductory pages, to the part where you see what I described above, you'll see references to "Moshe." That is a Latin spelling of the pronunciation of Moses' name in Hebrew.
For what it's worth, the synagogue I attended when growing up had Chumashim that didn't use these "transliterations." Our Chumash used "Moses," etc.
Quote: WizardDoes god keep changing his name in that religion too?
The story did say, i think. If I recall correctly, god has all those anmes, whether he sues them or not. Something like that.
Quote:I might add that it keeps changing in Christianity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Revelations says that when god comes back for the second coming he will change his name yet again. Why doesn't he pick one and stick with it?
I dind't know god had a name in Christianity. Does he even need one? I mean, according to the basic tenets of monotheism, it's unlikley in the extreme the one god could be confused with some other god ;)
Or is it the Messiah who would come with a name? that amkes mroe sense. and given how many Mexicans are anmed "Jesús," he'd need a new one.
Quote: DJTeddyBearFirst of all, a "Torah" is a hand-written scroll containing the 5 books of Moses, on wodden rods, with elaborate coverings used before storing them in the ark.
Then in which book are the Psalms, Proverbs, Isiah, Ecclesiastes and all that jazz?
Quote: DJTeddyBearTo follow along with the reading, you can use a Chumash.
Any connection to the Chumash casino in Santa Barbara county?
Quote: NareedI dind't know god had a name in Christianity. Does he even need one? I mean, according to the basic tenets of monotheism, it's unlikley in the extreme the one god could be confused with some other god ;)
At another board I was active with there were endless debates among the Christians about this topic. It comes down to the issue of the Trinity, which is always a touchy subject. Oneness Pentecostal Christians will say that the Trinity doctrine is straight from the pit of hell to confuse people, and that there is just one god with one name, which is Jesus.
Meanwhile those who subscribe to the Trinity doctrine will say that Jesus is the name of God's son, and god is just god, and they don't refer to him by name. If forced, they might say his name is what was mentioned earlier in this thread, YWHW, or however it is spelled. I've also heard "Al Shadai," but don't know how that is different.
Both sides I think would respect that Christianity is a split-off from Judaism, and they would agree that god had a different name before Jesus, and will have get another with the second coming.
Quote: WizardThen in which book are the Psalms, Proverbs, Isiah, Ecclesiastes and all that jazz?
That's the rest of the Old Testament. The Pentateuch (5 books of Moses) are just the first five books of the OT. There are between 2 and 3 dozen books, depending on whose version you use.
Quote:Any connection to the Chumash casino in Santa Barbara county?
Heh, no. The Hebrew transliteration "chumash" is pronounced with the "kh" gutteral. The Chumash people in California are pronounced with a "ch" as in "chew". Naturally, WikiPedia has a disambiguation page.
Quote: MathExtremistThat's the rest of the Old Testament. The Pentateuch (5 books of Moses) are just the first five books of the OT. There are between 2 and 3 dozen books, depending on whose version you use.
I know that is the Christian answer, but I've never heard a Jew refer to the "old testament," except in talking about Christianity, which I've noticed they tend to not like doing. If I went to the average rabbi and asked to read the book of Isiah, where/how would he tell me to obtain it?
Quote: WizardI know that is the Christian answer, but I've never heard a Jew refer to the "old testament," except in talking about Christianity, which I've noticed they tend to not like doing. If I went to the average rabbi and asked to read the book of Isiah, where/how would he tell me to obtain it?
It's called the "Tanakh". Like many things in Hebrew, "tanakh" is a word-ified acronym for the Hebrew names of the three main sections: Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim, or in English, Pentateuch, Prophets, and Writings.
Edit: specifically, Isaiah is found in Nevi'im, the books of the Prophets.
Quote: WizardDoes god keep changing his name in that religion too? I might add that it keeps changing in Christianity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Revelations says that when god comes back for the second coming he will change his name yet again. Why doesn't he pick one and stick with it?
When I was a kid I always hated my first name because there were always two or three other Mikes in every class. So I came up with an alternative one every six months or so I asked people to refer to me by, which nobody ever did.
I'm confident God shares your sentiments.
Quote: MathExtremistIt's called the "Tanakh". Like many things in Hebrew, "tanakh" is a word-ified acronym for the Hebrew names of the three main sections: Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim, or in English, Pentateuch, Prophets, and Writings.
Thanks, that is the answer I was looking for.
M.E. gave a good answer, but I think you're also curious to know in what manner are they printed / distributed.Quote: WizardThen in which book are the Psalms, Proverbs, Isiah, Ecclesiastes and all that jazz?
I'm fairly sure that the Torah is special in it's production and handling, because of it's special purpose in most prayer services. Additionally, because the Torah defines it's own holiness, and the other books were written after the time of the Torah, they are seperate in their stature.
Therefore, the other books get no special treatment. They are produced using standard printing and book binding. Oh, sure, back in the day before printing presses, they were created by scribes, but today, they're just books. Of course, the books may get minor special treatments such as gilded edges and leather binding and such, as well as handled to avoid desecration, but, bottom line, they're books.
The actual pages are very similar in appearance to the pages of the Chumash - Hebrew text, multiple commentaries, and translations of everything.
On the other hand, there's nothing from preventing someone from going to extra lengths to get a special production of any of the books. For example, on Purim, the entire book of Esther is read in Synagogue. I've seen books used, as well as scrolls. Whether these scrolls are created by a scribe or by machine is unknown to me.
Quote: WizardAny connection to the Chumash casino in Santa Barbara county?
What DJ said.
However, in Mexico the transliterations are different. In this case it would be "Jumesh" using Spanish pronunciations. Coincidentally, the biggest Mexican juice maker goes by the brand name "Jumex." Understandably the term "Jumesh" is hardly ever used in this country.
Quote:At another board I was active with there were endless debates among the Christians about this topic. It comes down to the issue of the Trinity, which is always a touchy subject.
Oh, that. Well, I'd better not even say anything about it.
I'll defer to Wikipedia, which seems accurate here:Quote: WizardA major plot point to Pi was trying to find the name of God by unlocking a numerical code on the Torah. They believed the main character Max had the ability to do it. The movie mentions a particular number, something in the low 200s. Can anyone who has seen the movie, and is well versed in Hebrew numerology, explain what was going on?
"The 216-letter name of God sought by the characters of the film is known as the Shem ha-Meforash or the Explicit Name. It comes from Exodus 14:19-21. Each of these three verses is composed of seventy-two letters in the original Hebrew. If one writes the three verses in boustrophedon form — one above the other, the first from right to left, the second from left to right, and the third from right to left — one gets seventy-two columns of three-letter names of God."
216 is also six cubed.
This is pretty outside the mainstream stuff.
Most -- emphasis on MOST -- Jews would accept the JPS (Jewish Publication Society) translation as authoritative. This means Conservative Jews on downwards. Orthodox Jews will generally have enough knowledge of biblical Hebrew to do their own basic translation. For those who don't, the ArtScroll translation is sometimes used.Quote:However, with such a reverence for the original Hebrew, is there still a respected English translation? I tend think the percentage of American Jews who can read Hebrew is not very high. For them, who are willing to accept a translation, what is available?
Quote: DJTeddyBearFor example, on Purim, the entire book of Esther is read in Synagogue. I've seen books used, as well as scrolls. Whether these scrolls are created by a scribe or by machine is unknown to me.
The scrolls are written by hand by scribes much as the Torah is done. Scribes in training start with Mezuzot (the parchment placed on the doorposts), move on to phylacteries (leather boxes worn on head and arm), then Scrolls of Esther (which does not contain G-d's name in it), and finally produce sheets of parchment for the Torah scroll itself.
Quote: teddysI'll defer to Wikipedia, which seems accurate here:
"The 216-letter name of God sought by the characters of the film is known as the Shem ha-Meforash or the Explicit Name. It comes from Exodus 14:19-21. Each of these three verses is composed of seventy-two letters in the original Hebrew. If one writes the three verses in boustrophedon form — one above the other, the first from right to left, the second from left to right, and the third from right to left — one gets seventy-two columns of three-letter names of God."
Quote: Exodus 14:19-21
19 Then the angel of God, who had been traveling in front of Israel’s army, withdrew and went behind them. The pillar of cloud also moved from in front and stood behind them,
20 coming between the armies of Egypt and Israel. Throughout the night the cloud brought darkness to the one side and light to the other side; so neither went near the other all night long.
21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and all that night the LORD drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land. The waters were divided
Hmm. Obviously a lot will be lost in the English translation. Do these forum 72 different three-letter names, or are there some repeats. Do all of them make phonetic, sense? Does god really need 72 names? What is to say this isn't just three 72-letter verses in a row?
You are getting about four layers of interpretation here. There is the original Hebrew text, which was translated into English. It seems pretty straightforward describing God and His presence among the Hebrews. Then, you have the centuries of interpretation by rabbis and scholars about what it actually means. This is what you would find in a book like the Talmud or Rashi's commentary. Finally, you have the Kabbalistic interpretation, which is based on the original Hebrew, the interpretation, and a bunch of other esoteric elements like numerology. I don't profess to understand any of the Kabbalistic part, let alone the first two layers.Quote: WizardHmm. Obviously a lot will be lost in the English translation. Do these forum 72 different three-letter names, or are there some repeats. Do all of them make phonetic, sense? Does god really need 72 names? What is to say this isn't just three 72-letter verses in a row?
Quote: AlanMendelsonbut when we pray in casinos, we really mean it.
An old joke, but a good one.
Quote: AlanMendelsonyou think it's a joke?????
Of course it's a joke. I never pray.
Anyway since I don't have much to add maybe I can tell a quick story. I studied Hebrew in Rome and the class was taught in Italian. My Italian was okay but the class was a struggle, I had to first translate the Hebrew into English and then finally into Italian. Anyway with so much on my mind when I was asked to read in class I would give our very faithful Jewish teacher fits because I would also pronounce the holy name of God YWH. I was supposed to say Adonai, "Lord", but I would forget and she would yell at me for a few minutes. Happy Pi day!
Quote: FrGambleAnyway since I don't have much to add maybe I can tell a quick story. I studied Hebrew in Rome and the class was taught in Italian. My Italian was okay but the class was a struggle, I had to first translate the Hebrew into English and then finally into Italian.
So your Italian was ok but you weren't fluent in it? Big words, considering I've yet to try to learn another language. But if I took a class in english to elarn, say, Russian, I wouldn't need to tranlsate anything to Spanish.
BTW I took years and years of Hebrew and Yiddish in school. I've forgotten most of it because 1) that happens when you learn and use a language by rote and 2) you have zero interest in it. I recall a few words, and I can "read" them as in soudning out words; but I don't understand it.
I thought it was because the numbers on a Roulette wheel add up to 666. Live and learn....Quote: FrGambleThe only thing I have really ever heard about numbers and the Hebrew language is that the name Nero is where we get the idea that the number 666 is so evil.
Don't feel bad. The same thing happens in regular Hebrew school.Quote: FrGambleI would give our very faithful Jewish teacher fits because I would also pronounce the holy name of God YWH. I was supposed to say Adonai, "Lord", but I would forget and she would yell at me for a few minutes.
For what it's worth, "Adonai" is a substitute for the correct pronunciation, since, as previously discussed, we don't know the correct pronunciation.
But the reality is, "Adonai" is only used in actual prayers or services. At other times, including classes, you're supposed to substitute "Hashem" which means "the name". And a lot of times kids in Hebrew school forget that as well.
Happy Pi day!
Quote: NareedBTW I took years and years of Hebrew and Yiddish in school. I've forgotten most of it ...
I have a friend here who is fluent in Yiddish. Perhaps you'd like to meet him to brush up. He doesn't have many people to speak it with in Vegas.
