buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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March 6th, 2012 at 11:49:00 AM permalink
" it is absolutely impossible for human beings to control their sexual desires." This is true for 99% and I have doubts about the other 1%
WongBo
WongBo
Joined: Feb 3, 2012
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March 6th, 2012 at 12:17:04 PM permalink
Please provide quotations from a reputable study that links contraceptive use to increases in divorce, STD and unwanted pregnancy.
You cannot. I find your posts incredibly deceptive and dishonest. You know what you are saying is not true.
And yet you call yourself a man of the cloth.
How disappointing.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
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March 6th, 2012 at 12:18:35 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

The only way any of your arguments that contraception is needed or is beneficial hold any water is if it is absolutely impossible for human beings to control their sexual desires. I do not believe that. I believe very strongly that we don't want to, hence the strange and strong insistence that contraception is so important.



I am assuming that your comments are covering more than American/Canadian society. The proof should always be in some kind of demonstration. It avoids rhetoric on either side.

I take it as a reasonable assumption that any stable modern human society would desire to have a total fertility rate in the 2.0 to 2.3 range. If it is much higher, than the country cannot economically adapt, and much lower and the society is diminishing. Surprisingly few countries are in that range, but many are traditionally Catholic.

Peru 2.32
Argentina 2.31
Saudi Arabia 2.31
South Africa 2.30
Mexico 2.29
Indonesia 2.25
Brazil 2.18
Colombia 2.15
Nicaragua 2.12
Paraguay 2.11
El Salvador 2.08
United States 2.06
Ireland 2.02
Korea, North 2.02
France 1.96

It may be too much to ask for, but there should be some kind of evidence that a society can maintain reasonable levels of fertility, while still following the teachings of the Catholic church with regard to both artificial contraceptives and surgeries.

I am under the impression that the huge drop in fertility in Latin America is partly because of urbanization, but primarily because of widespread rejection of the Catholic teachings regarding artificial contraception.

With the growth of the Catholic church in Africa, there is the profound question of the consequences of the huge existing fertility rate. At some point we will see deaths of famine numbering in the hundreds of millions.
Niger 7.60
Uganda 6.69
Ethiopia 6.02
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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March 6th, 2012 at 12:57:31 PM permalink
<Duplicate>
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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March 6th, 2012 at 12:58:23 PM permalink
The thing is that I don't feel enlightened. I can appreciate AZ's argument that contraception coverage for health care should not be covered as it just is more regulation. As for the morality of it, I can appreciate FrGamble's thoughts but in this day and age where we're at 7 billion and counting humans on this planet, where wars are constantly breaking out because of resource shortages, where the elasticity of commodities such as oil and gold are so crazily strong, that contraception is a great way to lower birth rates overall, and stop disease.

Now, FrGamble told of the parable of the man who took a bag of condoms into town and had his way with a pile of diseased women in Zimbabwe, and claims that this behaviour would not happen had he not had condoms. And I agree, that with promiscuity comes a risk of catching STDs or AIDS, (much lower than an condom), birth control or no. The Catholic church argues that the existence of contraception comes with a great increase in promiscuity, and that's a bad thing. I agree. While promiscuity is a great deal of fun, it carries risk, and it not living the life of the pious as the catholic church (and most churches, actually, dictate).

That said, I think the Catholics church's view has got to be abstinance between unmarried couples, and to simply get away from the contraception argument. I think the overpopulation of this world, and the cruelty of the AIDS virus are two excellent reasons to abandon the church's view against contraception. Even Pope Benedict advocated that males prostitutes should wear condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS... unfortunately, no movement since then.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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March 6th, 2012 at 1:14:31 PM permalink
The RC church's position is very parsimonious. I can't blame them. They say "If you believe our doctrine, unmarried sex is a sin" and "contraception is a sin".

It may not meet a human reality, but that's hardly the point. It's the doctrine and belief of the RC church. I can say they are WRONG in that belief, but there denial of handing out condoms is with their doctrine. It'd be like a staunch tea party councillor suddenly deciding that $100k spending on one TV for a single mother was acceptable.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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March 6th, 2012 at 1:26:46 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

The RC church's position is very parsimonious. I can't blame them. They say "If you believe our doctrine, unmarried sex is a sin" and "contraception is a sin".

It may not meet a human reality, but that's hardly the point. It's the doctrine and belief of the RC church.


So is the underlying concept of "sin". If you don't believe in Original Sin, you probably don't need salvation from it.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Nareed
Nareed
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March 6th, 2012 at 1:37:06 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

The only way any of your arguments that contraception is needed or is beneficial hold any water is if it is absolutely impossible for human beings to control their sexual desires.



Loaded argument aside, of course it's not impossible. But it also is NOT absolutely necessary. If a couple wants to engage in sex, why shouldn't they? WHy must they conform to an arbitrary standard for lack of effective contraception?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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March 6th, 2012 at 1:37:17 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

So is the underlying concept of "sin". If you don't believe in Original Sin, you probably don't need salvation from it.



Good point. Original sin is just a concept, its not
a reality. There isn't a shred of evidence to support
it. You only need salvation when you buy into the
concept.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
FrGamble
FrGamble
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
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March 6th, 2012 at 6:03:46 PM permalink
Here are a couple of videos that tallk about the overpopulation question:

7 Billion people: Everybody Relax!

Food: There's Lots Of It

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